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Is using MyFi stealing?

Reed Rothchild said:
and what is the legal penalty for this? Personally what you posted doesn't affect me as I'm not in the US and use MyWi for my own nefarious uses, but I'd like to know exactly what it is I'm stealing and what constitutional law I'm breaking. If I'm "most definitely stealing" then please provide evidence.
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I'm glad you used "nefarious" for your explanation. Villainous is a good way to describe it.

Per the Communications Act 2003 (UK) says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offense."

bytethese said:
Most definitely not stealing. It's a TOS violation. Stealing is a crime, punishable by means of law. Violating a TOS is a civil matter, theybcan terminate your service, or sue you for breach on contract. :)
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"In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

What you are exactly "stealing" is bandwidth from AT&T's networks. So at the very least it's stealing. Now whether you can get prosecuted for it remains to be seen. All of this is so new that there aren't specific laws that deal with it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't wrong. Most laws are built through things of this nature, and we'll definitely see it defined and prosecuted in our lifetime.
 
Zell84 said:
My only point is that this is now a debate on ethics. But keep doing what you will.
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I think it must deal with ethics because the technology is moving too fast for the legal system to keep up. So the only debates will be ones of this nature until something is in the books.
 
H00513R said:
I'm glad you used "nefarious" for your explanation. Villainous is a good way to describe it.

Per the Communications Act 2003 (UK) says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offense."



"In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

What you are exactly "stealing" is bandwidth from AT&T's networks. So at the very least it's stealing. Now whether you can get prosecuted for it remains to be seen. All of this is so new that there aren't specific laws that deal with it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't wrong. Most laws are built through things of this nature, and we'll definitely see it defined and prosecuted in our lifetime.
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I'm sorry but I think you're wrong - maybe you haven't read my previous posts in this thread carefully enough. Who are AT&T anyway? I've never come across them.

My posts were in response to the OP's question of "Is using MyFi (sic) stealing". Please state case law that shows that I acted illegally by using a 3G SIM that I own for the purposes of browsing the Internet.
 
H00513R said:
I'm glad you used "nefarious" for your explanation. Villainous is a good way to describe it.

Per the Communications Act 2003 (UK) says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offense."



"In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

What you are exactly "stealing" is bandwidth from AT&T's networks. So at the very least it's stealing. Now whether you can get prosecuted for it remains to be seen. All of this is so new that there aren't specific laws that deal with it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't wrong. Most laws are built through things of this nature, and we'll definitely see it defined and prosecuted in our lifetime.
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Why are you quoting UK law for services provided by ATT in the US?
 
Reed Rothchild said:
I'm sorry but I think you're wrong - maybe you haven't read my previous posts in this thread carefully enough. Who are AT&T anyway? I've never come across them.

My posts were in response to the OP's question of "Is using MyFi (sic) stealing". Please state case law that shows that I acted illegally by using a 3G SIM that I own for the purposes of browsing the Internet.
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Originally Posted by TwoFive3 View Post
I know you are violating terms of service, but would you consider jailbreaking your iPhone to use the MyFi app stealing? Stealing from Apple? Stealing from AT&T?

I was basing my responses to the OP's original question about AT&T. If he asked about them, then I can only assume that he is under their umbrella. Why are you even making an issue of your stance if it doesn't relate to the OP's??


dukebound85 said:
Why are you quoting UK law for services provided by ATT in the US?
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I was relating it to Reed Rothchild as he is (I assume by his Blightly tag) in the UK somewhere. I was quantifying my response.
 
What's the big deal here?

You pay for unlimited to use data services, it's not device specific - you pay for the service. As long as you remain within your fair usage allowance, who's to say what is right or wrong? If you exceed it, it's then down to the ISP to enforce the rules.

It's not stealing as it's not dishonest and there's no deception. I'm sure if those people that do tether were asked, they would tell the truth.

In my opinion, it's the ISP's stealing from us charging us for an identical service to what is already being paid for!
 
Dan14 said:
You pay for unlimited to use data services, it's not device specific - you pay for the service. As long as you remain within your fair usage allowance, who's to say what is right or wrong?
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See, this is where I think AT&T is telling you it's wrong. As I posted from their website:

Data Services sold for use with AT&T RIM BlackBerry devices, and smartphones may not be used with other devices, including but not limited to, Personal Computers, PC Data Cards and the like, either by tethering devices together, by SIM card transfer or any other means.

So AT&T seems to disagree with you. Since it's theirs I would say they have the final say as to whether or not you can use it with multiple devices.
 
H00513R said:
Originally Posted by TwoFive3 View Post
I know you are violating terms of service, but would you consider jailbreaking your iPhone to use the MyFi app stealing? Stealing from Apple? Stealing from AT&T?

I was basing my responses to the OP's original question about AT&T. If he asked about them, then I can only assume that he is under their umbrella. Why are you even making an issue of your stance if it doesn't relate to the OP's??




I was relating it to Reed Rothchild as he is (I assume by his Blightly tag) in the UK somewhere. I was quantifying my response.
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OK fair enough. I do know where you're coming from. The mixup of localities could have caused some confusion. However, regarding the part of the Communications Act that you quoted:

Per the Communications Act 2003 (UK) says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offense."

I do have to disagree with you. I don't engage in any avoidance of payment by (for example) using MyWi on my iPhone to provide an access point for my WiFi iPad to enable 3G Internet access. I'm still paying for every byte that I download. I'm not avoiding payments. This is the nub of the matter. I can't possibly see this as being illegal. A breach of the TOS maybe. TOS's get breached all of the time but they don't equate to illegal (or "villainous" activities :)). I can't see this being any different whether using AT&T in the US or any other provider elsewhere.
 
H00513R said:
See, this is where I think AT&T is telling you it's wrong. As I posted from their website:

Data Services sold for use with AT&T RIM BlackBerry devices, and smartphones may not be used with other devices, including but not limited to, Personal Computers, PC Data Cards and the like, either by tethering devices together, by SIM card transfer or any other means.

So AT&T seems to disagree with you. Since it's theirs I would say they have the final say as to whether or not you can use it with multiple devices.
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Ah, see, I'm in the UK so cannot comment for the US practises. Although, that is very restrictive and raises many questions relating to fairness and equality. Surely if you pay for a service (which it is), you can do what you want with it? I imagine this revolves entirely around the fact the ISP doesn't want you consuming more bandwidth than what you're paying for, but if you're within your limit, what does it matter which device it comes from? A 128kb webpage is not going to be any smaller on a different device. Correct me if I am wrong, but you pay for a tethering service, not for a tethering device?
 
Reed Rothchild said:
I do have to disagree with you. I don't engage in any avoidance of payment by (for example) using MyWi on my iPhone to provide an access point for my WiFi iPad to enable 3G Internet access. I'm still paying for every byte that I download.
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I'm curious now. Who do you use for your service?

Dan14 said:
I imagine this revolves entirely around the fact the ISP doesn't want you consuming more bandwidth than what you're paying for, but if you're within your limit, what does it matter which device it comes from? A 128kb webpage is not going to be any smaller on a different device. Correct me if I am wrong, but you pay for a tethering service, not for a tethering device?
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I think you are spot on with your first part, but I think the problem comes in with unlimited data plans. I don't think this would be a problem with say AT&T's new iPad plan that has a cap (what is it, $15 a month?).
 
H00513R said:
I think you are spot on with your first part, but I think the problem comes in with unlimited data plans
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Yes! Absolutely right! The whole problem is around the use of "unlimited" - simply put, they shouldn't use that word and then expect people not to tether, it's just not clear. It's like saying you have unlimited money, it has a limit and it's not until you reach it that you then get screwed!
 
I can't help but laugh at everyone who is worred AT&T is going to catch them tethering. To put it plain in simple, it won't happen. Why? Because AT&T does not care/is lazy. Before you disregard this message I have proof.

You all remember the dreaded pre-MMS days don't you? And if you jailbroke anytime before that, you may of heard of an app called SwirlyMMS. Now in order for you to be able to use MMS, you had to contact AT&T and have them Enable WAP push on your account (along with other things) to actually ENABLE MMS. Many people were successful (me) and others were not. You actually had to get a representative that didn't know what you were trying to do.

Once that was all done, you reset your phone and you had MMS on your phone. Now I had MMS on my phone around Jan. '09, a long long time before 3.0. I would send plenty of MMS on my phone and when I got my bill, guess what, it actually said "Multimedia Message Sent/Received" and it showed the time, and who it was sent to.

Now think of this, AT&T hadn't allowed MMS on the iPhone yet, but there was a whole list of them actually on my bill. How can I have gotten away with this? This all goes back to AT&T doesn't care.

Now it's an even easier method with tethering to get by AT&T because on your bill it doesn't show "Tethering" it shows "Data Usage" and that tethering is factored into it. You have unlimited data and you can do whatever you want for that. People exclaim there is a soft cap of 5Gig of data but what are they going to do to you? It's not stated in their Terms of Service that you can't use unlimited when you are paying for it. And they can't prove you were tethering.

TLDR: AT&T will never catch you tethering no matter what because they don't care/are very lazy.
 
I agree with you about the cap, but they can actually tell how much tethering you're doing. I rarely tether (have no need, expect in airports), but the times I have my bill had something like wap.cingular.com on just those data kb's. That could be the wrong name, but they definitely had a different designation than my normal iPhone surfing kb's. I was using the Stealth AT&T 6.0 hack. So, it would seem (if they cared) that could charge for this. I just think right now AT&T knows they don't have tethering, doesn't know when they will since they're not prepared to handle the increased bandwidth, and because there are probably not many people tethering anyway, it's not something on their radar.
 
Reed Rothchild said:
OK fair enough. I do know where you're coming from. The mixup of localities could have caused some confusion. However, regarding the part of the Communications Act that you quoted:

Per the Communications Act 2003 (UK) says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offense."

I do have to disagree with you. I don't engage in any avoidance of payment by (for example) using MyWi on my iPhone to provide an access point for my WiFi iPad to enable 3G Internet access. I'm still paying for every byte that I download. I'm not avoiding payments. This is the nub of the matter. I can't possibly see this as being illegal. A breach of the TOS maybe. TOS's get breached all of the time but they don't equate to illegal (or "villainous" activities :)). I can't see this being any different whether using AT&T in the US or any other provider elsewhere.
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How do you figure that you are not engaging in avoidance of payment? I have an iPhone and an iPad and I'm paying a data plan on both. You jailbreak your iPhone, thereby breaking Apple's TOS and then install MiWi and tether your iPad thereby breaking AT&T's TOS and thereby avoid paying the $30 data plan.

Now we can debate all day about whether or not it's illegal, immoral etc... It's certainly at least unethical. Now you won't go to jail. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. You won't go to jail either for not helping an elderly person accross the street or cutting somebody off on the freeway or cutting ahead of someone in line etc... But let's not argue that that kind of behavior is not "wrong". The sole definition of whether something is right or wrong is not if it's technically illegal or leads to jail time etc.
 
Cartaphilus said:
New York Penal Code § 165.15 (4)
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I would suggest re-reading the statute. This would apply if you don't currently have service and altering, by some means, a device or means to obtain service. People tethering already have service. What would apply is having a 3G capable iPad and altering it in such a way as to obtain cellular service without paying for it.
 
Reed Rothchild said:
OK fair enough. I do know where you're coming from. The mixup of localities could have caused some confusion. However, regarding the part of the Communications Act that you quoted:

Per the Communications Act 2003 (UK) says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offense."

I do have to disagree with you. I don't engage in any avoidance of payment by (for example) using MyWi on my iPhone to provide an access point for my WiFi iPad to enable 3G Internet access. I'm still paying for every byte that I download. I'm not avoiding payments. This is the nub of the matter. I can't possibly see this as being illegal. A breach of the TOS maybe. TOS's get breached all of the time but they don't equate to illegal (or "villainous" activities ). I can't see this being any different whether using AT&T in the US or any other provider elsewhere.

phpmaven said:
How do you figure that you are not engaging in avoidance of payment? I have an iPhone and an iPad and I'm paying a data plan on both. You jailbreak your iPhone, thereby breaking Apple's TOS and then install MiWi and tether your iPad thereby breaking AT&T's TOS and thereby avoid paying the $30 data plan.

Now we can debate all day about whether or not it's illegal, immoral etc... It's certainly at least unethical. Now you won't go to jail. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. You won't go to jail either for not helping an elderly person accross the street or cutting somebody off on the freeway or cutting ahead of someone in line etc... But let's not argue that that kind of behavior is not "wrong". The sole definition of whether something is right or wrong is not if it's technically illegal or leads to jail time etc.
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I have no idea about this $30 data plan you are talking about. I'm also not aware of AT&T TOS's. They don't operate over here last time I looked.

OK - let's make it simple. I pay for a 3G service with Orange. That entitles me to x*GB of downloadable data per month. The SIM is in my iPhone. Sometimes I choose to connect a WiFi iPad to the iPhone via the WiMi access point. I then browse the net and do typically pointless things via the iPad instead of via the iPhone. If I browse this site via the iPad or the iPhone I'm still using exactly the same access protocols and paying for exactly the same pennies per megabyte. It may well be breaking some specific TOS but that's not the point of this thread. People break such contracts all of the time, and it's completely legal to do so.

Is using MiWi illegal (original topic)? Of course not. If we wish to discuss ethics then the poor end user is the least interesting or relavent subject. Let's start with Apple/Jobs/Adobe/Flash and how they're currently manipulating public opinion and preventing us from experiencing the Internet in all its glory via our expensive 3G data plans :).
 
bytethese said:
I would suggest re-reading the statute. This would apply if you don't currently have service and altering, by some means, a device or means to obtain service. People tethering already have service. What would apply is having a 3G capable iPad and altering it in such a way as to obtain cellular service without paying for it.
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I can't agree. I read the language as prohibiting diverting telecommunications service from the device for which service had been contracted to some other device. The telecommunications service is that being provided to the iPhone, and if it is being used by the iPad, either through its 3G capability or its wifi capability, it is a violation of the statute, at least how I read it.

I didn't look to see if there were any published opinions interpreting this subsection of the statute (there are limits to my obsession), but this is not the sort of thing anyone expects a prosecutor to actually pursue, let alone be the subject of an appeal or published trial court opinion.

It'd be interesting to poll the MacRumors Bar Association, but some questions are too academic even for that bunch to respond to.
 
You know what really upsets me? After tethering 10 devices to the iphone via AT&T the connection becomes unusable which is really angering my clients who pay good money for a dedicated internet connection!
 
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