Italy Fining Apple 10M Euros for 'Dishonest Commercial Practices' Related to iPhone Throttling

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

This move will just make Apple and Samsung stop supporting and offering updates for older devices.

 

[jimbobb24]

I don’t understand these. Who gets that money? Not th consumer that delt with issues like this so why should someone besides us get the money? Makes really no sense to me.
But cutting a check for 5$ per person isn’t really anything. I’d be happy if everyone that say owned a 6+ after two years that experienced this got back a certain amount I’d be happier about these. Offer a trade in on that phone for no out of pocket cost. Yea that wouldn’t ever happen.

Who gets the money? Like US it probably gets funded to the ruling parties friends or friendly organizations.

 

[I7guy]

Really? You consider this a win?

Let's look at the numbers for a moment, shall we?
Apple's net worth is 1 Trillion dollars
They have at least $243 Billion in CASH
During the time that they were throttling (lets say 6 months), let's say they sold just 500 extra phones a day at an average of $300 a phone. That is $27,000,000 that they made off the extra phone sales.
Additionally, they eventually offered $29 battery replacements, their cost is most likely around $15 for parts and labor, which means for every battery they replaced they made about $14 profit. I am not sure how many they have replaced, but let's just say it is 100,000, that means another 1,400,000 in profits.

So far we are up to about 28.4 million in profits and Italy gives them a fine of 11.5 million, which compared to their net worth would be the equivalent of fining you me about $5 and we would have made about $250,000 off the fraudulent sales.
[doublepost=1540416936][/doublepost]
Years? No, try more like hours, maybe a couple of days.
[doublepost=1540417028][/doublepost]
No, the poster you quoted is quite correct, it means the device is faulty. Imagine if your "OLD" car did this on a regular basis, you wouldn't tolerate that, now would you? Yet we routinely drive cars for 20+ years with little issue, the same should be true for computers and phones. We need to stop of disposable mentality with these things.

Suppositions are great tools.

 

[AZ63]

Where did they lie? It was noted in the update that no one reads what it was doing, just not in explicit detail. The alternative was stupid, recognize the aging battery caused spikes killing old devices, but do nothing, meaning they get to sell you a new one. They chose to extend the life of the device by predicting the damaging spikes and decreasing conditions to minimize the spikes.

Offering the cheap battery replacements on devices several years out of warranty was a nice gesture that showed it was not a software issue but instead a old battery.

I think you are being a little soft on Apple with your comment. I believe the reality lies between Apple was out to rip-off consumers by creating planned obsolescence and those that claim Apple acted in the consumers best interests.
First, I don't believe Apple tries to shorten the life span of their phones. If you develop a reputation of creating an expensive phone that lasts 18-24 months people will leave the platform. But I also believe that Apple is a company with a Board of Directors and stock holders that want to see profits remain high and their image remain unassailable. Apple wants to please everyone. So the powers that be inside Apple get together and discuss how to best address the issue. They chose a middle ground. In the end, it turned out poorly for Apple. This chosen course of action left them vulnerable to attack by those who love to take the top dog down a notch or two. Could Apple have designed the software patch/update that allowed the iPhone to continue to operate without a shutdown, been implemented with a notification to the user that the software detected a system overload and so the phone reduced performance to enable the phone to continue to operate? Could it also include a message about getting the battery checked to see if the battery is old and needs replacing? Would that have caused an outcry by the critics of Apple? Most likely it would have. But at least Apple would have been ahead of the story. That is were Apple should be. The battery replacement program is damage control. We all know Apple doesn't do anything without planning and forethought. This episode in its history is/was no different. Don't fool yourself into thinking Apple was caught unaware and was only thinking what it could do to best service it's customers or how it could extract more money from its customers. Apple tried to please all its masters and got a black eye for its efforts.

 

[Tech198]

Users asking the Apple to not slow down older phones was a big ask..

 

[IbisDoc]

I already said that I agree that Users should have been notified. So not sure what you are after.

Obsolescence strategy? Do you have some internal memos from Apple to support that claim? The continued software updates essentially refute your conspiracy theory.


What are they hiding, that batteries are a tricky technology to manage? Throttling while connected to power makes total sense for thermal reasons.

Why? Because heat impacts battery health and stability. Charging a battery creates heat, and heavy processing also creates heat. If you don’t properly balance that, you can have a thermal runaway similar to the type that caused fires / explosions of Samsung batteries in the past. I will happily wait a second or 2 for my app, over the alternative of an exploding phone.

Not going to dive into the off topic video, my point on chiming in on this thread isn’t to defend Apple in the first place as I know they aren’t perfect.

No internal memos, just an abundance of common sense.

Do you think it benefits Apple’s bottom line to have customers feel the need to upgrade their iPhones as much as possible? Do you think Apple’s failure to disclose made customers feel that their only choices were to live with a hobbled iPhone, or buy a new one? Do you think Apple accidentally failed to disclose the minor detail of a new battery making the hobbled iPhones function as-new? Do you think Apple was unhappy that their customers felt the need to buy new iPhones? Do you think a company as controlling as Apple would leave have proof of their devious intentions just sitting around somewhere?

Like I said, common sense.

 

[code-m]

The only people who benefit out of these "fines" is government. It doesn't help the people affected. Apple make much more than €10m out of Italy, so it means very little to them.

Will it mean they won't do any more "shady" stuff... of course not.

Just keeping companies compliant with the countries law. Whoever it benefits is not a discussion point.

If I visited your home and you had some “rules” to follow, and I circumvented those rules, would you be happy I did so. Common courtesy, that’s all. Nobody would fault you for not inviting me to your home in the future, even though we are still friends outside your personal environment. Not sure why there has to be a good versus bad scenario with everything.
[doublepost=1540442498][/doublepost]

Users asking the Apple to not slow down older phones was a big ask..

Apple admitted for not being forthcoming to disclosure. Their have rectified it, people should be informed. If upgrading to an updated OS version their phone may take a performance hit due to degraded battery capacity, either replace battery if at certain percentage or update at own dissatisfaction.

Though I understand Apples need to get most iOS users on the latest version, it should have been transparent. I have had my MBP 2014 and upgraded the OS, no performance hit from prior versions, so why is iOS different.

Not taking sides, just asking what is the reasonable and responsible thing to do.
[doublepost=1540442818][/doublepost]

No internal memos, just an abundance of common sense.

Do you think it benefits Apple’s bottom line to have customers feel the need to upgrade their iPhones as much as possible? Do you think Apple’s failure to disclose made customers feel that their only choices were to live with a hobbled iPhone, or buy a new one? Do you think Apple accidentally failed to disclose the minor detail of a new battery making the hobbled iPhones function as-new? Do you think Apple was unhappy that their customers felt the need to buy new iPhones? Do you think a company as controlling as Apple would leave have proof of their devious intentions just sitting around somewhere?

Like I said, common sense.

Apple makes some good, some bad and some questionable decisions. Neither for or against their decisions as each must be considered on its own merit.

What’s surprising are their pro bono defence lawyers who believe Apple is a saint who does no harm. Gimme a break and grow up people, I am a shareholder and even I can be neutral on these matters.

 

[KevinN206]

--Denied customers' requests to replace batteries
--Rigged the test software to avoid replacing batteries
--Released OS that crippled phones, and refused to comment
--Fixed OS after "The Internet" figured out what they did

And Italy is blamed for making a "cash grab" by the apologists here...

Discovery is undoubtedly underway in the US class suit. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Remember how they denied bendgate causing the touch disease? Apple knew full well the new iPhone 6 plus was way weaker and that Apple actually added underfill to the SAME chip that was getting damaged after normal use wear-and-tear. And MAGICALLY the iPhone 6s Plus had stronger case and added reinforcement around the weak point.

 

[code-m]

Who gets the money? Like US it probably gets funded to the ruling parties friends or friendly organizations.

With VW Desiel emission scandal, the company was fined by the US government and the affected parties/buyers filed a class action.

Maybe something similar or not, it’s up to the Italians affected by this.

 

[KevinN206]

Actually, they want the devices to last longer so people continue subscribing to more-profitable services.

Which other services that are more profitable than selling you a new iPhone?

 

[code-m]

Remember how they denied bendgate causing the touch disease? Apple knew full well the new iPhone 6 plus was way weaker and that Apple actually added underfill to the SAME chip that was getting damaged after normal use wear-and-tear. And MAGICALLY the iPhone 6s Plus had stronger case and added reinforcement around the weak point.

Many companies have design flaws, no one is perfect. Apple like many other companies do not like to admit to them willingly until taken to court. It flys against their core values or taking their time to redesign the perfect experience, flaws are not part of the intention.

Once their do own up, I find their do a good job if you survived their frustration ordeal.
[doublepost=1540443491][/doublepost]

Which other services that are more profitable than selling you a new iPhone?

Subscriptions

 

[KevinN206]

Apple provided an update that they said included a new "power management" feature. Did the update include a new "power management" feature? Yes. It addressed known issues with lithium ion voltage supply in a mobile phone sized battery. Could they have communicated something more specific? Yes. Does that by itself mean that Apple was being dishonest? No. After all, the OS is going to limit CPU clock speeds in other situations that don't actually involve peak voltage demands. That's just the reality of saving battery charge in a mobile device.

This is what Apple wrote in their whitepaper after it was found they throttled the performance. These performance issues were not explicitly stated as part of the "power management". These words were chosen specifically to obfuscate the fact that performance was throttled. Consumers who complained of their phone getting "slow" NEVER knew about the throttling because Apple refused to explicitly disclose it. The Genius simply diagnose the slowness because the phone is too old for the "new" software. Remedy? BUY A NEW PHONE! It was only after the public awareness that they added in the Battery Health and performance monitoring. It would be a lot more transparent if they had added that in from the beginning. My SO iPhone 6 Plus is doing GREAT after we replaced its battery and upgrading to iOS 12. It was a lag-fest before these two items. We are holding out for iPhone 11 next year. Note how Apple changed "power management" to "performance management" in the whitepaper.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387

Preventing unexpected shutdowns
With a low battery state of charge, a higher chemical age, or colder temperatures, users are more likely to experience unexpected shutdowns. In extreme cases, shutdowns can occur more frequently, thereby rendering the device unreliable or unusable. For iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6s, iPhone 6s Plus, iPhone SE, iPhone 7, and iPhone 7 Plus, iOS dynamically manages performance peaks to prevent the device from unexpectedly shutting down so that the iPhone can still be used. This performance management feature is specific to iPhone and does not apply to any other Apple products.

This performance management works by looking at a combination of the device temperature, battery state of charge, and battery impedance. Only if these variables require it, iOS will dynamically manage the maximum performance of some system components, such as the CPU and GPU, in order to prevent unexpected shutdowns. As a result, the device workloads will self-balance, allowing a smoother distribution of system tasks, rather than larger, quick spikes of performance all at once. In some cases, a user may not notice any differences in daily device performance. The level of perceived change depends on how much performance management is required for a particular device.

In cases that require more extreme forms of this performance management, the user may notice effects such as:

• Longer app launch times
• Lower frame rates while scrolling
• Backlight dimming (which can be overridden in Control Center)
• Lower speaker volume by up to -3dB
• Gradual frame rate reductions in some apps
• During the most extreme cases, the camera flash will be disabled as visible in the camera UI
• Apps refreshing in background may require reloading upon launch

[doublepost=1540444601][/doublepost]

Slightly revised? No. You would need a significant advancement in lithium ion technology in order to ensure that a phone sized battery didn't have voltage supply issues at 80% capacity, in cold weather, or at 20% or lower charge.

Accelerating aging of the lithium batteries would have shown the battery size in the iPhone 6 were inadequate unless it was planned for maybe one year of operation. Battery degradation of lithium-ion is nothing new and certainly not new when the iPhone 6 was released in September 2014.
[doublepost=1540445378][/doublepost]

If the SoC requests a voltage that is too high for the battery to supply, the phone is at risk of being damaged. That's why any brand of phone would simply shut off when that happened. It's a safety feature already built into the phone. The only alternate solution available is exactly what Apple did, which is have the OS watch the voltage pattern and prevent the spikes with temporary throttling.

It was about current (ampere) and not necessarily the voltage. Voltage is a byproduct of the current (amp) requirements. The CPU demands more power as a current (amp) spike. The battery in the iPhone degraded such that its internal resistance (ohm) was getting high enough such that the peak current causes a large voltage drop. This voltage gets below the CPU requirement causing a reset and shutdown.

It's more likely the voltage was too LOW rather than not being high enough. I'm not sure how it can be high in the first place since lithium-ion battery charge is proportional to voltage: lower state of charge = lower voltage. Having a low voltage is generally benign and causes the CPU to go into reset as fail-safe mode hence the sudden shutdown instead of permanent damage from voltage spike (much much less likely). There are banks of capacitors to prevent this from happening.

 

[x-evil-x]

The thing that I never liked is this whole thing made it seem like your once fast phone was aging and that it was time to upgrade. THIS is the reason apple didnt come out with the software years before. They could of but they are trying to get people to upgrade. I personally think everyone that noticed the slowdowns should deserve a trade in with no additional cost. I really believe that. ITs bad business what apple did.
Sure they fixed it but why did it happen to begin with? If It made 100 million people to upgrade because of slowdowns apple made a lot of $$$.
Dont forget about the constant reminders to upgrade. This should off been easily turned off. Once you upgraded your old phone the slowdowns would start to happen. Like apple was pushing people to slowly degrade their phone in order to upgrade.

 

[YaBe]

It's funny how people speak about my country without first hand experience of it, yeah keep reading newspaper and believing everything they write, i guess fake news is an American thing

Italy might not be perfect, but we have the same share of issue as any other country, yes there's corruption (but again any country has it) there is illegal stuff happening anywhere (what country doesn't have some?), but we also have some of the best people here, as someone pointed before, politics is one part of the country, then there's the people, and we have some greast minds here!

It is also a civilized country, where you do not have to sell a kidney to have mediacal care (even if you are foreign!!!), something other countries should learn from, oh and we do not bomb other countries to "protect ourselves" from unknown threats.

 

[ROGmaster]

Then Apple should just do that, stop updating the software on older devices after 2 years (or however long). I don't understand the obsession of needing the latest OS. Yes, it has more features but I'd rather have my device's hardware run the software it was designed to handle.

Maybe other manufacturers stop giving out software update for this exact reason? At least that might be part of the consideration?

All I know is my iPad 3rd gen runs much musch slower on the new iOS than the one it came with and I think Apple is responsible for that.

So yeah, I support the fine.

Because there is a lot of room to add new features and functionality with iOS and because all the system apps are updated in the process not just the OS.

With Android it's different in the sense thta somebody can have a phone that is on Marshmallow but it still runs the latest Gmail, Maps, Phone, Messages, Google Photos, Google Play Services versions.
Google doesn't need to push a new OS version to update it's apps.

I agree that 2 years of major OS updates are fine if at the end of this period the phone runs the most well supported(from the phone's hardware perceptive) and optimized version of the OS. Plus a 2-3 adtitional years of security updates and eventual bug fixes and performance optimizations.
[doublepost=1540450143][/doublepost]

It's funny how people speak about my country without first hand experience of it, yeah keep reading newspaper and believing everything they write, i guess fake news is an American thing

I would say it's an Apple thing not an American thing.

 

[SashJ]

I never understood why this was such a big issue. Why would anyone want there phone to die unexpectedly? What if your in an emergency and your phone said it had 20% battery left and you went to go make an emergency call and it just died. I would rather have my phone die when I am expecting it that be screwed.

 

[H2SO4]

Apple provided an update that they said included a new "power management" feature. Did the update include a new "power management" feature? Yes. It addressed known issues with lithium ion voltage supply in a mobile phone sized battery. Could they have communicated something more specific? Yes. Does that by itself mean that Apple was being dishonest? No. After all, the OS is going to limit CPU clock speeds in other situations that don't actually involve peak voltage demands. That's just the reality of saving battery charge in a mobile device.

You are making some incredibly naive statements.
A parallel if you will. I've been in standby power for about 20 years now and there are a number of ways that I see people specify and emergency lighting system, (be that Gel, plante or ni-cad cells, li-on are also being used now). The two most common;

1. They specify three hours at full load.
2. They specify three hours at full load and battery EOL.

ie. they have accounted for usage patterns and still made sure it makes the grade before any warranty runs out. Apple chose not to do this, they CANNOT have not known about this possibility.

 

[KPandian1]

Users asking the Apple to not slow down older phones was a big ask..

This is total nonsense.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Which other services that are more profitable than selling you a new iPhone?

Selling subscriptions, App Store revenue, etc...

The percentage of profit on software has to be higher than it is on selling hardware.

 

[Music Ambulance]

Beofre bashing my country, you should bash this company for their practices, the political issue we might have or not have have nothing to do with how a company acts (one does not justify the other).

Can't believe how low some poeple would go to defend Apple, yes it is a great company, but when they srew up they should get called out for, and I am glad Italy did the right thing!

Wash your mouth before you talk about my country!

Bit defensive about your country! Every second person I met in Italy tried to screw me.

 

[KPandian1]

Bit defensive about your country! Every second person I met in Italy tried to screw me.

This is one of the worst, most idiotic statement made in this forum.

 

[x-evil-x]

I never understood why this was such a big issue. Why would anyone want there phone to die unexpectedly? What if your in an emergency and your phone said it had 20% battery left and you went to go make an emergency call and it just died. I would rather have my phone die when I am expecting it that be screwed.

Because most people assumed their phone was on the way out and they needed to upgrade. There should of been information on why it’s skowing down from Apple. But no they didn’t release a statement that replacing the battery will improve performance.
It made millions of people upgrade which was apples plan. So yes it’s a big deal.

 

[0989382]

10 million Euroes? That must be like £6.50 in GBP , or $7.28.. LOL

 

[dialogos]

Bit defensive about your country! Every second person I met in Italy tried to screw me.

Maybe you really need some "screwing" ...Consider it as euphemism....

I apologize to the rest of macrumors users.
[doublepost=1540493827][/doublepost]

10 million Euroes? That must be like £6.50 in GBP , or $7.28.. LOL

So you're laughing because Apple is so rich that can easily pay any fine? Just need to understand your laugh here.

 

[KPandian1]

10 million Euroes? That must be like £6.50 in GBP , or $7.28.. LOL

It is a small amount, but a good first step. All Apple had to say was, "please buy new batteries for your iPhones".