It's insulting that OSX is receiving iPhone features rather than the other way around

[BaldiMac]

Time matters. First, I spent the money. Now, not only do I have to rebuy the stuff, I am forced to transfer the data (if at all possible). My point, neither of those issues has anything to do with the quality of apps. People wanting to switch from Android to iOS have many of the same gripes.

Of course, it matters. It just has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

You are just shifting the goalpost with every argument you make. You were wrong in your dismissal of the original post that started this tangent. Calidude's argument that Apple's decision to not include a file system was based on protecting their iOS software profits is clearly ridiculous. You want to argue whether tens of millions of dollars is a lot of money even though it's obvious that such a statement is relative. What's clear is that iOS software profits are negligible to Apple's bottom line, so they wouldn't be making engineering decisions to protect those profits.

 

[JAT]

I assume you are referring to the following statement:


I am still not seeing who will be helped by doing away with the file system.

Good lord....

Only if you train the users. My point is: they can't even handle the simple version. You expect them to survive with complexity?

And, most people are using their Windows computers in a way that is the same as this simplified file system. No change. That is what the first quote meant.

 

[lordofthereef]

Of course, it matters. It just has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

You are just shifting the goalpost with every argument you make. You were wrong in your dismissal of the original post that started this tangent. Calidude's argument that Apple's decision to not include a file system was based on protecting their iOS software profits is clearly ridiculous. You want to argue whether tens of millions of dollars is a lot of money even though it's obvious that such a statement is relative. What's clear is that iOS software profits are negligible to Apple's bottom line, so they wouldn't be making engineering decisions to protect those profits.

I disagree. Like I said, if you need me to be wrong, sure, I'll be wrong. I find the appstore to be a big part of why Apple is currently successful, so even if it's not their major cash bringer, they SHOULD want to protect it, because it will get people to buy hardware. But anyway, I am also willing to move on (read: I have mopved on from that topic, since the circles are pointless and tiring, likely for both of us). You?

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Good lord....

Good lord what? I am asking how removal of the file system is beneficial to the end user. How has this being answered in anything you are quoting. You are talking about training. What about training?

 

[Bobby Corwen]

A large aspect of this topic involves the idea that computer users don't do as many various things as they used to.

Web browsing
Facebook
Twitter
Craigslist
Google Maps
Youtube
Photobucket
A few favorite sites.
Calendar
Notes
Adresses/ #s
Sometimes work (Photoshop, Final Cut, Logic Pro)

Thats pretty much it.

Everything we do revolves around those typical uses for the computer.

Everything is online based. Everything else would be redundant.

The internets great swallowing of everything else that computers do is what saved Apple.

People don't really install things anymore, its all just cloud/internet based.

All you need is access to the "cloud" in the most efficient and in-control way as possible.

 

[JAT]

Good lord what? I am asking how removal of the file system is beneficial to the end user. How has this being answered in anything you are quoting. You are talking about training. What about training?

I probably added this too late, so repeat:
And, most people are using their Windows computers in a way that is the same as this simplified file system. No change to them. That is what the first quote meant.

Also, you are now jumping on me about my response to someone else. He claimed "people" do not operate the way iOS works, I rebutted that. You may wish to discuss the actual topic instead of changing it constantly.

 

[lordofthereef]

I probably added this too late, so repeat:
And, most people are using their Windows computers in a way that is the same as this simplified file system. No change to them. That is what the first quote meant.

Also, you are now jumping on me about my response to someone else. He claimed "people" do not operate the way iOS works, I rebutted that. You may wish to discuss the actual topic instead of changing it constantly.

Respectfully, I am not jumping on anyone, unless "jumping" is synonymous with asking questions. If they are synonymous, I suppose I an guilty as charged.

I also don't see how the topic is changed. The OP is asking why we are making computer OS's more like our mobile OS's and not the other way around. I agree the money thing is off topic. In fact, I pointed that out myself. Talking about file systems and users, I feel, is on topic. Further on topic, you claim the majority of users also use it in a way we might see a file system free OS used. I don't know if this is true or false. How do you know that it is? How do you know that the majority of the users would feel no difference?

 

[BaldiMac]

I disagree. Like I said, if you need me to be wrong, sure, I'll be wrong. I find the appstore to be a big part of why Apple is currently successful, so even if it's not their major cash bringer, they SHOULD want to protect it, because it will get people to buy hardware. But anyway, I am also willing to move on (read: I have mopved on from that topic, since the circles are pointless and tiring, likely for both of us). You?

Which, again, is completely different than what we are discussing. No one is arguing that the App Store isn't important to Apple. Of course, it is. I just think it is ridiculous to argue that Apple is making feature decision to protect App store profits.

 

[lordofthereef]

People don't really install things anymore, its all just cloud/internet based.

This statement is based on what?

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Which, again, is completely different than what we are discussing. No one is arguing that the App Store isn't important to Apple. Of course, it is. I just think it is ridiculous to argue that Apple is making feature decision to protect App store profits.

I am also willing to move on (read: I have mopved on from that topic, since the circles are pointless and tiring, likely for both of us). You?

Last time. For emphasis. You are right. I am wrong. Promise.

 

[JAT]

you claim the majority of users also use it in a way we might see a file system free OS used. I don't know if this is true or false. How do you know that it is? How do you know that the majority of the users would feel no difference?

Observation of normal users. As opposed to what most people here seem to use, themselves and observation of other people exactly like them.

Personally, I never use the Open feature of Excel or any other app.

 

[lordofthereef]

Observation of normal users. As opposed to what most people here seem to use, themselves and observation of other people exactly like them.

Personally, I never use the Open feature of Excel or any other app.

Ok, so help me understand. What normal users are you speaking of. How are you observing them? You have to understand, this isn't enough information for anyone who doesn't know you to be able to judge whether your opinion is a valid one or not. (edit: And by valid, I suppose I mean factually based)

It sounds to me like you may have been (or still are) a part of tech support, classes, etc.

 

[JAT]

I am an accountant. But I am also an electronics geek.

I have been informal software tech help for family members, coworkers, and friends for over 20 years. I currently work in a department of 10 people, I have ONE of them using Windows Explorer to look up files in our extensive file system. All the others use Open... commands. Or just open from emails, which deserves a , since that doesn't affect the original stored file. These are mostly people with college degrees, a few CPAs. I might add that very few days go by without someone asking me for basic help, like finding a file, format issues, or other things I find very simple.

I have never seen more than a tiny fraction of "normal" users actually make use of the file system, OS-independent. So, I just find this all much ado about nothing.

I'm sure others will have their own experiences, which may not coincide with mine. But I stand by my statement that most people here at MR use their own abilities as a referent, and THINK the average PC user is similar. I say nothing could be further from the truth. Go through my history, this is not the first time I have so postulated.

 

[Bobby Corwen]

This statement is based on what?

Don't jump on me!

 

[lordofthereef]

I am an accountant. But I am also an electronics geek.

I have been informal software tech help for family members, coworkers, and friends for over 20 years. I currently work in a department of 10 people, I have ONE of them using Windows Explorer to look up files in our extensive file system. All the others use Open... commands. Or just open from emails, which deserves a , since that doesn't affect the original stored file. These are mostly people with college degrees, a few CPAs. I might add that very few days go by without someone asking me for basic help, like finding a file, format issues, or other things I find very simple.

I have never seen more than a tiny fraction of "normal" users actually make use of the file system, OS-independent. So, I just find this all much ado about nothing.

I'm sure others will have their own experiences, which may not coincide with mine. But I stand by my statement that most people here at MR use their own abilities as a referent, and THINK the average PC user is similar. I say nothing could be further from the truth. Go through my history, this is not the first time I have so postulated.

Thanks for that in depth explanation. It certainly helps knowing where you are coming from. I certainly don't have the background you do (which I think was clear even before you explanation). I think a lot of people do use their own abilities as a reference. Strangely, I don't know that I share your experience with "average" users, though I certainly know more users of my age group (Mid 20's), that grew up with computers, than not.

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Don't jump on me!

I was hopping! Or... bouncing?

 

[mrochester]

I am an accountant. But I am also an electronics geek.

I have been informal software tech help for family members, coworkers, and friends for over 20 years. I currently work in a department of 10 people, I have ONE of them using Windows Explorer to look up files in our extensive file system. All the others use Open... commands. Or just open from emails, which deserves a , since that doesn't affect the original stored file. These are mostly people with college degrees, a few CPAs. I might add that very few days go by without someone asking me for basic help, like finding a file, format issues, or other things I find very simple.

I have never seen more than a tiny fraction of "normal" users actually make use of the file system, OS-independent. So, I just find this all much ado about nothing.

I'm sure others will have their own experiences, which may not coincide with mine. But I stand by my statement that most people here at MR use their own abilities as a referent, and THINK the average PC user is similar. I say nothing could be further from the truth. Go through my history, this is not the first time I have so postulated.

Observing my colleagues, most will follow the same route as you witness; file, open. As such, a file system could be completely removed and they wouldn't notice the difference. Also, spending the time, effort and money to introduce a file system would also make no difference to these people. I suspect that is precisely why Apple have decided not to waste those resources.

 

[lordofthereef]

I suspect that is precisely why Apple have decided not to waste those resources.

But if it's already there (now being removed), what resources are really being wasted?

 

[mrochester]

But if it's already there (now being removed), what resources are really being wasted?

My point was related to why OSX is receiving iOS like features and not the other way around. Apple could just leave finder as it is, but there must come a point during the development of OSX where the file system has to be tested, tweaked and worked on. I guess if they got rid of it, they could save a whole lot of man hours and money.

 

[jca24]

Eventually OSX and iOS will become one. Sure, the desktop/laptop version will be able to do more, but they will merge together. Doubt we will ever see OSX 10.10.



edit: I did not read the entire thread so if this was already mentioned.....

 

[BaldiMac]

Eventually OSX and iOS will become one. Sure, the desktop/laptop version will be able to do more, but they will merge together. Doubt we will ever see OSX 10.10.



edit: I did not read the entire thread so if this was already mentioned.....

They are already one in that they share a common kernel. The difference is in the UI. So unless you think that laptops are going to move to a primarily direct multitouch interface or iPhones and iPads are going to move to a primarily mouse driven interface, I'm not sure what it means to say that they will become one. I doubt Apple is moving to a Windows 8ish setup where you switch between the two interfaces even if your device only supports one of the input methods.

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My point was related to why OSX is receiving iOS like features and not the other way around. Apple could just leave finder as it is, but there must come a point during the development of OSX where the file system has to be tested, tweaked and worked on. I guess if they got rid of it, they could save a whole lot of man hours and money.

And of course, there is the fact that iOS has been receiving features from OS X with every major update.

 

[lordofthereef]

Eventually OSX and iOS will become one. Sure, the desktop/laptop version will be able to do more, but they will merge together. Doubt we will ever see OSX 10.10.

The being one would make me pretty sad, I think. I always wondered what they were going to do after 10.9

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And of course, there is the fact that iOS has been receiving features from OS X with every major update.

Like what?

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My point was related to why OSX is receiving iOS like features and not the other way around. Apple could just leave finder as it is, but there must come a point during the development of OSX where the file system has to be tested, tweaked and worked on. I guess if they got rid of it, they could save a whole lot of man hours and money.

I guess I just don't see how a file system will not be there. Even in iOS, it's there, it's just not available to the end user (out of the box). It's still there (unless I have missed something very big) in Lion, it's just not available to us via finder.

 

[BaldiMac]

Like what?

Seriously? Okay.

Off the top of my head.
Cut/Copy/Paste
Desktop backgrounds
Reader
Tab Browsing
Photo editing
Week view in calendar
Multitasking gestures

And that's just publicized user features. I'm sure core libraries and APIs are migrated for developers in large numbers. The list could go on for pages.

 

[EmbraceTheOne]

What we need is iChat.

 

[lordofthereef]

Seriously? Okay.

Off the top of my head.
Cut/Copy/Paste
Desktop backgrounds
Reader
Tab Browsing
Photo editing
Week view in calendar
Multitasking gestures

And that's just publicized user features. I'm sure core libraries and APIs are migrated for developers in large numbers. The list could go on for pages.

I took that as features unique to OSX. Things like cut, copy, and paste were in OS's before it (including those brought forth by Apple). I wouldn't personally call most of that list an OSX feature, rather a desktop OS feature, thus my confusion. Apologies. I will give you gestures though.

 

[mcman77]

iOS is DUMB compared to OSX. I can't believe people prefer it

iOS should become more like OSX, I would imagine its more profitable though which is the deciding factor.

If iOS does take over, its bye bye apple for me


FreeBSD and Unix have so much more potential....they are starting to head in the wrong direction IMO.

Edit: good thread btw

 

[Night Spring]

It's still there (unless I have missed something very big) in Lion, it's just not available to us via finder.

File system is still very much accessible in Lion via the Finder...

 

[BaldiMac]

I took that as features unique to OSX. Things like cut, copy, and paste were in OS's before it (including those brought forth by Apple). I wouldn't personally call most of that list an OSX feature, rather a desktop OS feature, thus my confusion. Apologies. I will give you gestures though.

Well, the primary counter-example was the lack of a file system moving from OS X to iOS, so I don't think the original complaint was about features unique to OS X.