Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
It's insulting that OSX is receiving iPhone features rather than the other way around
- Thread starter Calidude
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
The cost of apps isn't locking many people into the ecosystem. The average spent on apps is around $20 per iPhone. The cost to switch is much less considering that the leading competitor has more free options. The incentive to stay in the App Store ecosystem is the quantity and quality of the apps.
First, $189 million is a guess. Apple doesn't release those numbers. Second, as I said, the size of the numbers are relative. Even if we take the $189 million as the real number, that's over 3.5 years. For a company that made over $60 billion in that time period.
You quoted me saying that they make a lot of money, and essentially stated that I should revisit that. Ok. I would still say that's a lot of money. They may make a lot more selling hardware, but still, that kind of money is a lot of money, and I didn't claim otherwise. True, these numbers are guesses, but they are very educated guesses. It's not hard to get numbers of apps sold, and do some basic math from there. Did I claim that the majority of money was made from iTunes and AppStore? Absolutely not. But if the money made really is that negligible, why make any money at all? They could operate at a loss if they wanted to, and still be fine. So obviously doing more than just breaking even means something to someone, even if only just the shareholders.
I do contend that the amount of money spent on the ecosystem matters to people. $20 may be the average (I will believe you, hadn't heard that though), but when you add in all the data loss, having to rebuy all that (so now we are $40 minimum), as well as families being able to share these apps among up to five other family members (you wouldn't want to do this on Android since you need to share your actual gmail information, unless of course you don't use gmail... don;t know about windows phone, but it hasn't been around long enough for the majority of people to have made multiple upgrades I wouldn't think), so you do become locked into the ecosystem. With Apple, everything you have invested (be it time, or money) into your apps, you get to keep with every upgrade. For those that have done this for multiple hardware upgrades, it becomes difficult to justify to just start over.
----------
Right... I was responding to your thanks to Apple (I took that as if you were implying they were providing some sort of charity with the iTunes store, sorry if I was off on that)
Last edited:
Educated guesses? Maybe. Doesn't mean they are accurate. The information simply isn't available. All we know is what Apple has said, which is that they are operating a bit over break even.
But you've kinda gotten away from the point. I was just correcting your uninformed dismissal of the post by MattInOz.
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/14371028/
His statement was completely reasonable and yours was not.
Seriously? We are talking about $200 for an iPhone and $500 for an iPad at the low end, and you think the $20 that the average person spent on apps is going to keep a significant number of people from switching? And, as I pointed out, you do not have to spend the same amount on apps when you move to a new OS. Android apps are more likely to be free, and part of that $20 is stuff that you no longer need or want.
I was curious, so I did some searching (at work, what else do I have to do?). This article from late 2010 claims users drop $4 a month on apps, on average. A person that had their phone for a single contract term in the US, would have spent nearly $100 in apps alone.
I don't think adding some of iOS's apps to OS X is simplifying the OS. They're not "dumbing it down." They are adding additional apps that you have the option to use should you want to.
Maybe it's just a testament to how good apple's marketing is, but the thread starter right here seems to show: iPhone isn't for him, yet keeps it and wants it anyway. I swear. Some people literally feel like they have no option but to stay and complain.
Complaining in itself is fine. It's how new features get added and OS's get refined. But complaining to the point where you find this deal breaker and that deal breaker and a ton of other things that make you not like the phone makes whoever's listening ask...why do you still have the phone?! If android is so much more advanced, there's an option for you right there! I just came to iPhone after 3 years of android and couldn't care less about file system managers or a ton of other things that people say makes android "better". If you feel "insulted" by apple, why would you stay with a company that insults you? Apple might sleep with your wife too
Person 1: iPhone is a toy. It doesn't have a file system manager
Person 2: I don't and will never use that on a phone
Person 1: Screw you android's better!
Person 2: If it's better, why don't you switch to it?
Person 1: ...
Everything is personal preference. Some people don't seem to get that, instead in this egocentric way stating that this one thing they don't like is a huge deal and is to everyone and because of this one thing, iPhone will fail.
I haven't read every single post in this thread so maybe i'm wrong and the OP actually does have a huge hard on for iPhone and it just wasn't obvious in the first post, but i see people like this everyday. Same with others that claim iPhone's specs are severely outdated and because of its small 3.5 inch screen people will stop buying it and it'll fail. "It needs at least a 4.5 inch to be usable". 37 million new iphoners in the last quarter got along just fine
Interesting post by OP: "This is plain and simple dumbing down of technology. Nothing else. Instead of of empowering...".
Dude..bro...I don't know just how insulted you feel, or if it's insulted enough to leave forever, but you sound pretty damn insulted. Try an android. You can have my old HTC thunderbolt
Complaining in itself is fine. It's how new features get added and OS's get refined. But complaining to the point where you find this deal breaker and that deal breaker and a ton of other things that make you not like the phone makes whoever's listening ask...why do you still have the phone?! If android is so much more advanced, there's an option for you right there! I just came to iPhone after 3 years of android and couldn't care less about file system managers or a ton of other things that people say makes android "better". If you feel "insulted" by apple, why would you stay with a company that insults you? Apple might sleep with your wife too
Person 1: iPhone is a toy. It doesn't have a file system manager
Person 2: I don't and will never use that on a phone
Person 1: Screw you android's better!
Person 2: If it's better, why don't you switch to it?
Person 1: ...
Everything is personal preference. Some people don't seem to get that, instead in this egocentric way stating that this one thing they don't like is a huge deal and is to everyone and because of this one thing, iPhone will fail.
I haven't read every single post in this thread so maybe i'm wrong and the OP actually does have a huge hard on for iPhone and it just wasn't obvious in the first post, but i see people like this everyday. Same with others that claim iPhone's specs are severely outdated and because of its small 3.5 inch screen people will stop buying it and it'll fail. "It needs at least a 4.5 inch to be usable". 37 million new iphoners in the last quarter got along just fine
Interesting post by OP: "This is plain and simple dumbing down of technology. Nothing else. Instead of of empowering...".
Dude..bro...I don't know just how insulted you feel, or if it's insulted enough to leave forever, but you sound pretty damn insulted. Try an android. You can have my old HTC thunderbolt
We know how many of apps are sold, we know how much money these apps cost, we know how much of a cut Apple takes, thus we are able to come up with numbers. Those numbers are likely not going to be off by large factors. By the way, people aren't coming up with these numbers themselves, they are quoting market analysts, those that do this sort of thing for a living.
----------
Read what I said before, and why I think your $20 estimate may be off (also, if estimate on appstore sales can be off so easily, I suspect so can your quoted estimate of a person only buying $20 worth of apps on their iPhone, so if you wish to discredit me for quoting estimates, you should discredit your own quoted estimate). Also please read that I am considering a persons time, that which he was take to transfer all the data from an app on his iPhone to an app on his other device, as money as well. On top of that, I also mentioned that an entire family can buy one app, and use it as they see fit. Not the case with other offering AFAIK.
Last edited:
Do the math. Apple just announced $4 billion paid to developers, which implies 5.7 billion in revenue. Divided by 300 million iOS users is around $19 per user. (350 million iOS devices sold.)
----------
We know revenue. We don't know costs outside of the 70% paid to developers.
You shifted the goalposts there by adding in time. I said "The cost of apps isn't locking many people into the ecosystem." In reply to you saying "You are much more likely to keep upgrading to Apple devices if you have dumped a butt ton... of cash into their apps."
And again, Android apps are more likely to be free and you don't have to rebuy all of your apps. The cost of switching (limited to app costs) is much less than the $20 on average that iOS users have spent on apps.
It's annoying, because iOS should be an OS meant to make using an iPhone as intuitive and quick as possible for the tasks one would want to do on their phone (and ones that are practical to do on a phone).
When things get mixed up like that, it tends to erode the user experience both for computer and mobile devices (look at Windows 8, if you want to see what I mean). There are things that make a lot of sense on phones that are totally dumb on a computer, and vice versa.
It's also one of the things that bugs me about tablets....
Anyway, yea.. good things might come of it (like a new take on computing, that's fine!) but implementing features across platforms that don't make sense is dumb
When things get mixed up like that, it tends to erode the user experience both for computer and mobile devices (look at Windows 8, if you want to see what I mean). There are things that make a lot of sense on phones that are totally dumb on a computer, and vice versa.
It's also one of the things that bugs me about tablets....
Anyway, yea.. good things might come of it (like a new take on computing, that's fine!) but implementing features across platforms that don't make sense is dumb
Purely anecdotal, but i had about $100 worth of apps i bought on android and i sold my HTC rezound without a second thought. Partly because some of the apps i bought weren't worth buying again anyway. Is the ad free version of angry birds really worth buying again when i've played and beat it more than once? Or launcher pro or better keyboard skins. I bought those, but got tired of those quickly and i can't buy those on iPhone anyway so worrying about it would be a waste of time.
Same goes for my girlfriend. And she went from iPhone to android and is now going back to iPhone. Bought more than $20 in apps and it's like...a thing of the past. Apps to some people are pretty disposable. Especially casual smartphone users that get bored with most of their apps and don't even think about.
Just a gut feeling, but i think most people think more in terms of the long term progress of whatever platform they're on instead of the temporary issue of losing a couple paid for apps. Maybe it's the psychology around buying something digital too that makes it feel less real. I don't know. If i bought a ton of apps on iPhone but i really reallyyyy wanted an android phone with a big screen and 4g, some old paid for apps wouldn't stop me from switching. I don't think old purchases is what keeps most people with iPhone. Just my take on it
Same goes for my girlfriend. And she went from iPhone to android and is now going back to iPhone. Bought more than $20 in apps and it's like...a thing of the past. Apps to some people are pretty disposable. Especially casual smartphone users that get bored with most of their apps and don't even think about.
Just a gut feeling, but i think most people think more in terms of the long term progress of whatever platform they're on instead of the temporary issue of losing a couple paid for apps. Maybe it's the psychology around buying something digital too that makes it feel less real. I don't know. If i bought a ton of apps on iPhone but i really reallyyyy wanted an android phone with a big screen and 4g, some old paid for apps wouldn't stop me from switching. I don't think old purchases is what keeps most people with iPhone. Just my take on it
The numbers I was looking at were based on US representations.
----------
We can infer costs. Again, these things are inferred by people that know what they are doing (research analysts that do this for a living)
----------
Time matters. First, I spent the money. Now, not only do I have to rebuy the stuff, I am forced to transfer the data (if at all possible). My point, neither of those issues has anything to do with the quality of apps. People wanting to switch from Android to iOS have many of the same gripes.
----------
Perhaps we should continue discussing this elsewhere? This certainly has gotten way off topic from the original discussion of integration of iOS features into OSX...
I just bought a mac because I had an iPhone and an iPad. The halo effect works. I love this computer to death.
Never thought about getting a mac before. Infact, the idea repulsed me and i had strong unfounded opinions about it. Ditched my android phone and got an iPhone. Loved it. Then curiosity led me to buy a macbook and now i don't know why i didn't switch sooner. Halo effect works
You clearly have no idea what average users do with their computers. Virtually every user I see opens the app first on their computer. If I had a nickel for every time they ask "why can't I find xxx file" when they are looking from within Excel for a Word file....
Also, people are likely to have far fewer files on a phone, even on an iPad. Making the app-centric file system adequate.
Your lack of understanding of accounting doesn't make you correct.
Two different things really. You don't need a mac to use an iPhone. Most people I know with iPhones don't have a Mac.
----------
If anything, this supports the idea of why filesystems and file associations matter more than your app model.
----------
Yet we are being synced by iCloud to our desktops, are we not? Apple's model is to have all your files on every device.
Then educate me. All I have been told so far is that "you are wrong because you are wrong". Apple said they make a slight profit. With billions in the bank, a slight profit is likely tens to hundreds of millions. That's a LOT OF MONEY. Unless we are arguing about the definition of "a lot", I don't see how your statement makes much sense.
----------
Another, more important (IMO) thing is how these "file-less" systems will interact. Will absolutely nothing nothing installed, downloaded, or created on a Mac work with Windows (a la the olden days)?
Only if you train the users. My point is: they can't even handle the simple version. You expect them to survive with complexity?
Again, I would say this is related to usage. An individual, with "several" files, can use this system perfectly well. If you are in a business, with thousands of files, you'll have a computer-based server, anyway. And frankly, I would rather use a good RDP app than try to download files to an iOS Word or Pages whenever I did need to do something on the phone. Just like everyone already does with laptops, that system works better for storing the files, anyway.
If the numbers above are correct: 189m profit on 5.7b revenue, that is a 3% net income, well below Apple's overall margin, I believe. One simple error could swing any size number by 1-10% in a heartbeat. Not that Apple's accountants seem to make many errors, but a .5b adjustment can easily happen in a business of this size. What if a tax law changes, or their auditors decide they need to adjust the depreciation on the server farm for new industry standards? That would put them at a net loss larger than the current income in one minute. (or increase their income 2.5x the other way) Size of the numbers must be considered relative.
Of course, if you are comparing to an individual's financial world, yes, 189m is a lot of money to virtually anyone. But that is a useless comparison, because of the size difference.
Put another way....Apple claims to be running this store at break-even. That means, they have set the percentages (30% cut) to just cover expenses. The purpose in doing such a thing is to make sure the store remains open, not to make a profit. (unless, of course, you feel they are simply lying through their teeth) Obviously, being in the black is superior to a red 3%, so they are doing a good job. But since they have set in stone their cut (just imagine the uproar if they suddenly said, "we want 35%"), controlling expenses is the only way for them to alter their situation. I'm sure there are people looking at it every day trying to get them to 5% profit.
And I didn't even mention that so many apps are free, giving Apple zero revenue, but just as much expense.
Olden days? Other than the apps themselves, I've never had much problem converting between the two, since the early 90s. Once I even had a Mac Centris, or whatever the name was, with a built-in 486 Wintel PC. Office was out on Mac first, you know. I'd say there is less compatibility today than 20 years ago. But that is not so much file types (DRM books excepted), as it is with Apple's networking/communications solutions like iCloud, iMessage, etc.
Have they ever been without a file system? As far as I am aware, no, so of course you don't have trouble converting. IMO it is much easier to do these conversion NOW than it was 15+ years ago, as they are built into the software. In many cases now there is no need to convert at all. Both versions of the software will read the file just fine. But if each app is essentially its own file system I feel it would be difficult for these apps to speak to one another, so to speak. On iPhone, they already essentially can't, unless we are talking certain specific cases almost all of which have apps using information from Apple's apps, but not from each other.
----------
You said everything which was already said, yet you are quoting me saying I don't know what I am talking about, and therefore I am wrong. I simply stated they are making a profit, and it's a lot of money. Again, I ask, why am I wrong here? I am sure many companies do this. They have their cash cow product(s), and then trickle income in from various other avenues.
It seems people apposing my statements are just here to try to prove me wrong. If that is all you want, you can have it. This all stemmed from me dismissing a person's statement that Apple doesn't make a lot of money on the appstore. You are right. Their profit margins are way higher on most everything else they sell (note, AGAIN, that everything else they actually design and produce, which isn't so much the case with the appstore, thus I would contend, AGAIN, that they are doing well considering all they are really doing is providing a storefront for others to sell their goods), and therefore the millions they are making off the appstore is not a lot of money because they are making a lot more by other means.
1st para: A file system has nothing to do with converting file types. I am now at a loss as to what you are talking about. Conversion was built into apps 15 years ago, too. And 25 years ago.
2nd: I gave plenty of good information/understanding that has NEVER been attempted in this thread before. Also, I addressed your semantics claims. Again, at a loss as to what you even mean, anymore. I somehow doubt you actually read everything I wrote.
Exiting....
Usage of files is what I am talking about. Without a file system, how would those same applications talk to one another? Better yet, how would the lack of a file system be better? You had mentioned a person trying to open a word document in excel. How is this going to be eliminated with the elimination of the file system?
I haven't taken computer classes, so I am certain my terminology is off, forgive me for that. I can say, that I know enough on the topic, to never have found myself trying to open one filetype with a completely inappropriate application, however.
Well, to this I can just say your doubts are off. You went into more detail, sure, but the above poster that adamantly disagreed with me brought up the identical points (with less detail). You wrote three paragraphs, bud. It doesn't take that long to read them...