It's official: Macbooks have bad thermal paste applied

[kingtj]

How could they be so stupid?

This was discussed earlier and on other forums - but service techs. who work on other brands of notebooks reported seeing similar, incorrect instructions for application of thermal paste in their manuals too. This isn't just an Apple goof-up.

There are also quite a few reports on the Apple message forums from people with overheating Macbook Pros who removed the excessive thermal paste, re-applied a proper amount, and *still* saw very little temperature change.

I'm not trying to defend Apple here, or claim that "too much thermal paste" isn't an issue. But what I am saying is, I doubt it's as big a deal as some people are making out of it. Apple's recent SMC BIOS update changes around the behavior of the cooling fans on Macbook Pros it has been used on. Sounds to me like Apple just did a software "work-around" for the problem, telling the temp. sensors to turn up the fans when they read lower temperatures than the threshhold they were programmed to trigger at before.

(Most of the people complaining about this thermal paste problem were arguing not so much that the CPU isn't receiving enough cooling and might "burn out" or freeze up - but rather, that the CPU, the video chip and bus controller chip are *all* touching a metal plate that has sensors on it that try to figure out the overall temperature of things. If the thermal paste is causing the sensors to see things 5 or 6 degrees cooler than they really are, due to heat transfer not getting to the metal plate quite so well - then a recalibration of the sensors by that amount in software would seem to get things back to the intended mode of operation.)

good god, how can they be so stupid?? This is not good, not good at all. I may rethink buying one of these until this is officially resolved...

 

[stefan15]

This is what Apple gives them to dispense the grease:

You sure it's not this?

 

[CaptainCaveMann]

Exactly... MBP and MB have the same manufacturing problem with the thermal grease. Although the MB isn't lucky enough to have the aluminum chassis. Either way it does have to be fixed... how could they mess that up?

Are you suggesting a massive recall? Lets think of ways apple could fix this problem. Any suggestions? Ill start by saying, the new cor duo processors run hot, we all know that. Now when you combine that processor with the slim profile or the new MBP and the macbook it becomes very hard to displace heat. I mean come on you guys, everyone has seen inside these computers, theres no room. Its physics, theres only so much you can do. For a real fix to this problem i believe there lies only one solution. Its in the processor. They will have to come up with new designs for the processor so that it doesnt run so hot. Were looking for processor fixes here not heat displacement alternatives.

 

[kainjow]

Are you suggesting a massive recall? Lets think of ways apple could fix this problem. Any suggestions? Ill start by saying, the new cor duo processors run hot, we all know that. Now when you combine that processor with the slim profile or the new MBP and the macbook it becomes very hard to displace heat. I mean come on you guys, everyone has seen inside these computers, theres no room. Its physics, theres only so much you can do. For a real fix to this problem i believe there lies only one solution. Its in the processor. They will have to come up with new designs for the processor so that it doesnt run so hot. Were looking for processor fixes here not heat displacement alternatives.

Uh, I thought one of the huge selling points of the Core Duo was that it runs much cooler?

 

[CaptainCaveMann]

Uh, I thought one of the huge selling points of the Core Duo was that it runs much cooler?

Really? Tell that to everyone who owns a MBP or macbook. If they run cooler than why does every ibook and powerbook g4 ive ever used run cooler than the new intel books?

 

[ReanimationLP]

This is what Apple gives them to dispense the grease:

SERIOUSLY! O.O

 

[fowler.]

The reason the MacBook is faster in some tests there is because it's 2GHz, and the MacBook Pro they tested is the 1.83GHz model.

dude, wtf does that have to do with anything??!

 

[Eric5h5]

Uh, I thought one of the huge selling points of the Core Duo was that it runs much cooler?

Who ever said that? Cooler than a P4 or G5, perhaps....

--Eric

 

[stefan15]

Seriously Now

Are you suggesting a massive recall? Lets think of ways apple could fix this problem. Any suggestions? Ill start by saying, the new cor duo processors run hot, we all know that.

Yes I think a recall is perfectly justified. Have you SEEN Arctic Silver's instructions (aka the proper way) vs what Apple does. The bottom line is it is wrong. It is so utterly horribly wrong.

Don't defend Apple on this one, it's a massive mistake.

I have been told by a friend that works at HP that when they are assembling notebooks, they receive pre-filled syringes from HP. The instructions are to use the entire syringe. However, sometimes it's full (aka wrong) and sometimes it is only an 1/8th full or 1/4 full. But the instructions are always to apply it all.

In other words, if Apple did this, it would explain why some MBs don't experience heat issues since the problem-free instances probably received correctly filled syringes.

Also, Core Duo, Pentium M, Centrino Duo are all drastically cooler than Pentium 4 or D. They are closer operation temperature to AMD chips.

Oh, and regarding all these pictures you guys are posting of Apple processor dies (as in plural of die), that thermal grease isn't supposed to spread to an area off the die itself. ONLY on the die. Which can be easily cleaned with a lint free cloth and 99% isopropyl before grease can be re-applied. Have fun getting it off the rest of the processor area.

Again I can't stress enough, these instructions are the by-the-book methods, there's even a picture of what it looks like when the heatsink automatically spreads it (even though you can spread it with your finger covered with a plastic bag as well). LINK... again, a grain of rice sized blob.

 

[/dev/toaster]

when will this ever end? : )

When Apple finally responds and corrects the problem. I am rather shocked they have done nothing about this yet.

Apple is going to keep getting bad reviews after bad reviews. I am starting to see a lot of neg press from this. Right now, the only thing they are doing is shooting them selfs in the foot.

 

[/dev/toaster]

Are you suggesting a massive recall? Lets think of ways apple could fix this problem. Any suggestions? Ill start by saying, the new cor duo processors run hot, we all know that. Now when you combine that processor with the slim profile or the new MBP and the macbook it becomes very hard to displace heat. I mean come on you guys, everyone has seen inside these computers, theres no room. Its physics, theres only so much you can do. For a real fix to this problem i believe there lies only one solution. Its in the processor. They will have to come up with new designs for the processor so that it doesnt run so hot. Were looking for processor fixes here not heat displacement alternatives.

They can start by making sure all new machines have the correct amount of thermal paste applied. Machines are STILL coming out with a truck load on it. Apple has not even started to acknowledge the problem.

Next, they need to start correcting previous machines. Don't have to issue a recall. However, if a machine comes in with incorrect thermal paste. They need to scrap it off and reapply it.

To top it off, they need to stop pretending the problem isn't there. Regardless of who you talk to, there is no problem. Apple thinks they are in the right with this.

Don't get me wrong, I am new to Apple and I really love this machine. However, I won't deal with a clearly obvious manufacturing defect.

Some people don't find this to be a problem, so it gets a little warm. They all seem to get different temps. Mine, just happens to be VERY VERY hot. 2 of the guys I work with are very different in temps. 1 has a luke warm one, and the other is close in temp as mine. You can not rest the thing on your laptop without burning your self. I am very worried about a small child not knowing touching the case and burning them selfs.

 

[stefan15]

Some people don't find this to be a problem, so it gets a little warm. They all seem to get different temps. Mine, just happens to be VERY VERY hot.

Remember, cool=faster... heat is the ultimate limitation on processor speed. Different temps likely due to different amounts of thermal grease (assuming these are measured with similar processor loads).

 

[theBB]

Yes I think a recall is perfectly justified. Have you SEEN Arctic Silver's instructions (aka the proper way) vs what Apple does.

Is it possible the brand of thermal paste Apple using is different than Arctic silver's? What makes Arctic Silver the ultimate authority on this?

 

[stefan15]

Is it possible the brand of thermal paste Apple using is different than Arctic silver's? What makes Arctic Silver the ultimate authority on this?

You should probably read this thread first. Arctic Silver jsut so happens to have good online documentation. Like I mentioned earlier, that is the by-the-book method given the nature and purpose of thermal grease. The procedure is the same for all. You may have heard of google...

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...on+of+thermal+grease&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=3
http://forums.amd.com/lofiversion/index.php/t15990.html
http://www.devhardware.com/c/a/Hardware-Guides/Applying-Thermal-Paste/

 

[aristobrat]

Wonder if Apple's thermal goo works anything like Artic Silver (below).

Guess people will find out in 200 hours, assuming that they thermal cycle their machine. (which I rarely do). Wonder if thermal cycling explains why some MBPs aren't as hot as others?

Important Reminder:

Due to the unique shape and sizes of the particles in Arctic Silver's conductive matrix, it will take a up to 200 hours and several thermal cycles to achieve maximum particle to particle thermal conduction and for the heatsink to CPU interface to reach maximum conductivity. (This period will be longer in a system without a fan on the heatsink or with a low speed fan on the heatsink.) On systems measuring actual internal core temperatures via the CPU's internal diode, the measured temperature will often drop 2C to 5C over this "break-in" period. This break-in will occur during the normal use of the computer as long as the computer is turned off from time to time and the interface is allowed to cool to room temperature. Once the break-in is complete, the computer can be left on if desired.

 

[theBB]

Oh, and regarding all these pictures you guys are posting of Apple processor dies (as in plural of die), that thermal grease isn't supposed to spread to an area off the die itself. ONLY on the die. Which can be easily cleaned with a lint free cloth and 99% isopropyl before grease can be re-applied. Have fun getting it off the rest of the processor area.

So, what if it covers more than the die itself? It will not do you any good, but it will not harm the heat transfer, either. A real problem might arise if the "thermal grease" layer is too thick over the die, which depends on the amount initially placed, as well as how much pressure is applied on the heat sink.

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that people with years of experience are missing something that a few website searches easily uncover. I am pretty sure they test these things quite a bit before it goes into production and there are more variables here than you might think. I mean mistakes do happen, so yeah it is possible they messed up, but don't assume you have all the answers and everything is crystal clear.

 

[theBB]

You should probably read this thread first. Arctic Silver is the only brand to have good online documentation. Like I mentioned earlier, that is the by-the-book method given the nature and purpose of thermal grease. The procedure is the same for all.

I did read the thread. It is still possible Arctic Silver might be a different type of thermal grease than what Apple is using. Technology does progress, you know... Just because they have the only good online documentation does not mean that "procedure is the same for all."

 

[andiwm2003]

So, what if it covers more than the die itself? It will not do you any good, but it will not harm the heat transfer, either. A real problem might arise if the "thermal grease" layer is too thick over the die, which depends on the amount initially placed, as well as how much pressure is applied on the heat sink.

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that people with years of experience are missing something that a few website searches easily uncover. I am pretty sure they test these things quite a bit before it goes into production and there are more variables here than you might think. I mean mistakes do happen, so yeah it is possible they messed up, but don't assume you have all the answers and everything is crystal clear.

can it simply be that the photographer who took the pictures had no clue about thermal grease and made a bad picture? this picture ended up in the service manual because the printing people don't give a rats ass about thermal grease either? but then in the production of the macbook they use the correct amounts?

it's a service manual and not a SOP for production after all. and the few macbook pros where simply bad machines with too much grease. the pics from the macbook looked much cleaner with much less thermal grease than what you would expect from the amount shown in the manual.

 

[stefan15]

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that people with years of experience are missing something that a few website searches easily uncover. I

Hey me too man! I was right about to buy a MB until I saw that service guide! It *IS* hard to believe! It's shocking! But it really does explain the variation in operating temperatures... And regarding the grain-sized method.. that's just what you do, I don't know what else to tell you. That's what you're trained to do if you've ever worked in IT, and that's what ever manufacturer says to do, except Apple apparently.

Before assuming it's actually the proper method, I would be more likely to believe the previous poster suggesting that the photos are off. Who knows..

 

[bbrosemer]

Everyone does realize that if the paste is the true problem apple will fix it sooner or later and a trip to your local apple store will be the only thing required. Granted a $1000 and up piece of hardware should not have these problems. I just think it has less to do with the thermal paste and more to do with that its a core duo sitting a few centimeters below your hand.... Has anyone used another super skinny computer of around an inch in thickness that contains a core duo if so I would like to know how hot that is getting.

 

[aristobrat]

Has anyone used another super skinny computer of around an inch in thickness that contains a core duo if so I would like to know how hot that is getting.

ThinkPad T60
Core Duo T2400 1.83 GHz
2.2 in x 10 in x 1.2 in.

After maxing the CPUs for 15 minutes, no part of the T60s plastic case, other than the bottom of the LCD, was warmer than room temperature. There was a 1/4" strip under the LCD that was slightly warmer than room temperature.

Fracking amazing.

 

[milo]

That's just what the service manual says. Based on pics of actual MB's people have taken apart, it looks like they have far less. Probably still too much, but nothing remotely close to what's shown in these pictures.

I wonder why apple is so clueless about thermal paste, especially their manual writers?

 

[stefan15]

Based on pics of actual MB's people have taken apart, it looks like they have far less. Probably still too much, but nothing remotely close to what's shown in these pictures.

I've noticed that too.. still way too much, but not as much as that photo. Maybe they were advised to "dial it back a bit"... not enough unfortunately.

 

[odedia]

Are you suggesting a massive recall? Lets think of ways apple could fix this problem. Any suggestions? Ill start by saying, the new cor duo processors run hot, we all know that. Now when you combine that processor with the slim profile or the new MBP and the macbook it becomes very hard to displace heat. I mean come on you guys, everyone has seen inside these computers, theres no room. Its physics, theres only so much you can do. For a real fix to this problem i believe there lies only one solution. Its in the processor. They will have to come up with new designs for the processor so that it doesnt run so hot. Were looking for processor fixes here not heat displacement alternatives.

See this link to see how much it helps out:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/199840/

Also, see http://mbpro.info

Oded S.

 

[kainjow]

Really? Tell that to everyone who owns a MBP or macbook. If they run cooler than why does every ibook and powerbook g4 ive ever used run cooler than the new intel books?

Heh I don't know. Maybe I'm making it up. But I could have sworn it was true..