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iTunes 8.2.1 Reportedly Breaks Palm Pre Syncing

clevin said:
whats the point of vaguely making a statement which has no practical impact in this case? IP laws? find one fit this case, if you want to state so.
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Why? You asserted no case law exist. I assert that there is tons of case law regarding Intellectual Property in general - Google has tons of cases on this. But you can refer the case re psystar - That case is all about IP. It's unresolved, but all of the opinion is that Apple's copywriter trumps any unsubstantial anti-competition. I am not making a specific claim - you are making a huge claim - one you probably can't make. I am not a lawyer so I am not very skilled at searching law cases. I am sure someone better experienced in this area could come up with something.

What would make you happy?
 
yg17 said:
Right, let's get that straight. Stealing would be if Palm had a mole inside Apple who stole the iTunes source code and gave it to Palm to they could make a couple minor changes, slap their name on it and release it. What Palm did is certainly not stealing.
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Don't forget then man in charge of making the Pre, Jon Rubinstein, led the iPod Division at Apple for a while. He, and other developers from the iPod division, and iPhone division that now work at Palm, definitely had intimate inside information on how syncing with iTunes worked. They may not have had the source code to look at anymore, but I'm sure they remembered a few important details. :)

It was a somewhat shady move, but Apple could also let it slide.
 
pdjudd said:
Why? You asserted no case law exist. I assert that there is tons of case law regarding Intellectual Property in general - Google has tons of cases on this. But you can refer the case re psystar - That case is all about IP. It's unresolved, but all of the opinion is that Apple's copywriter trumps any unsubstantial anti-competition. I am not making a specific claim - you are making a huge claim - one you probably can't make. I am not a lawyer so I am not very skilled at searching law cases. I am sure someone better experienced in this area could come up with something.

What would make you happy?
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I asserted there is no law apple can properly use to sue palm ( and win ) for making pre sync-able with iTunes.

I would be more than happy if some skilled lawyer can give me some evidence.

Before that, any claim of apple being able to successfully sue palm and win is just as a big claim as I made above.
 
pdjudd said:
No they were guilty. The Bush administration's DOJ basically gave them a slap on the wrist by offering a deal to end the case. Cite.

Regrettably, the remedy was overturned on appeal (which led to the horrible settlement) but not the findings of fact.
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Yes. You misread my meaning. I was making the point there is nothing wrong with calling Apple's music business a monopoly at this point in time.



Uhh, you do realize that Obama (and his team during the election) uses a Mac and an iPod right???
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Oh yeah, the :apple: Cult. I keep forgetting about the Cult. (Rule #1: Don't talk about the :apple: Cult.)

So? What does that have to do with anything if Apple isn't breaking the law. Something one can only dream about because there is no investigation of anti-trust over device integration with iTunes.
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Well, you just pointed out that Clinton went after Microsoft, but Bush essentially neutered the penalty. So, Apple having lots of powerful enemies who aren't happy with their iTunes Store monopoly would be very interested in having some heat down Apple's neck.

Speedy2 said:
Apple doesn't have a dominant position in any market. If you don't like iPhones, Macs und iPods, fine. There are plenty of other options out there. You don't like the iTunes store. Fine. Nobody cares because you could always shop at Wal-Mart, Amazon, or wherever. Apart from some of Apple's own software there is not a single major app out there that locks you into Mac OS.
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Oh really? I would say Apple is dominant in all three markets: Smartphones, MP3 players, and online music distribution/sales. I've seen Steve Jobs' slides, bragging about absolutely dominant market share.

speedy2 said:
Now you're getting mysteriously mysterious.
You mean MS has a mole-in-power in the DoJ?
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Think Different. Try RIAA, MPAA.
 
brujaz said:
Don't forget then man in charge of making the Pre, Jon Rubinstein, led the iPod Division at Apple for a while. He, and other developers from the iPod division, and iPhone division that now work at Palm, definitely had intimate inside information on how syncing with iTunes worked. They may not have had the source code to look at anymore, but I'm sure they remembered a few important details. :)

It was a somewhat shady move, but Apple could also let it slide.
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The danger in letting it slide is that opens the door for every cellphone or mp3 player company to design their products to sync with iTunes. You can't say yes to Pre and no to Zune or any of the others...
 
clevin said:
I asserted there is no law apple can properly use to sue palm ( and win ) for making pre sync-able with iTunes.
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This is correct.

Suppose MS found a way for Windows to refuse any sort of iPod recognition via its drivers. I'm sure Apple would be thrilled.
 
Amdahl said:
Yes. You misread my meaning. I was making the point there is nothing wrong with calling Apple's music business a monopoly at this point in time.
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Yeah, nothing wrong with it if you don't mind making yourself look ignorant by using the term incorrectly. But it hasn't stopped plenty of other idiots, so why let it slow you down?
 
clevin said:
he means that if a user purchased music from iTMS, he or she should have the freedom to transfer that music to any device he or she wants within iTMS. And apple should not allow users to buy music from iTMS, while at the same time not allow them to use iTMS to transfer music to devices other than iPod.
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If that's what he means, then he would be wrong. Like it or not, Apple is not bound to open up iTMS to any device, if they choose not to. They developed it, they spent the money and development hours making it happen, and they can dictate anything they want to do.

Don't like it? Don't use iTunes. There are several other methods to download music, and if you're really that concerned about proprietary digital media, it's still possible to buy good old CDs and rip MP3s of those. iTMS content has not been sold with DRM restrictions since the release of the Pre, so no one had been locked into using it for their existing purchases. And lastly, Apple warned people this would happen. So there is absolutely no reason anyone should be bellyaching over it.

I would be more sympathetic to Palm in this case if they at least attempted to open up lines of communication with Apple beforehand about the possibility of having sanctioned syncing between their products. If Apple was clearly rebuffing them without any consideration, then I might be even more sympathetic to Palm. But they didn't even try. Instead they tried to slip it in clandestinely and were all smug and tounge-in-cheek about it. then tried to paint Apple as the bad guy when they plugged the technical loophole making this possible.

Make no mistake: Palm desperately needs the Pre to be a hit to survive. It was a bad move that they tried to do this, in some attempt to Stick It To Steve Jobs, Man. They got slapped. They should count their blessings that it wasn't any worse.
 
scaredpoet said:
Don't like it? Don't use iTunes.
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exactly, why anyone want to use iTMS is beyond me, its bloated, anti freedom, locking users into a constrained environment, organize music on device in a fragmented manner, I just think of no good reason for Pre users to use iTMS at all!
I'm surprised Apple didn't sue them.
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Get more readings about the law, then you won't be surprised then. There is no such law apple can use and win.
 
Amdahl said:
Yes. You misread my meaning. I was making the point there is nothing wrong with calling Apple's music business a monopoly at this point in time..
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Which is wrong. Monopoly is a legal term (and being a Monopoly is not in if itself illegal). Courts get to decide who is a monopoly and who isn't. What you mean to say is that Apple is acting monopolistic or like a Monopoly would.

Apple's music is not a Monopoly since no court has done so. There are several, several alternatives in the market. What Apple does have (and nobody denies) is market power and market majority. But that isn't illegal either.

It's only a problem when companies use one monopoly to create another unrelated monopoly. So how exactly is Apple preventing Palm from competing with iTunes again??
 
Amdahl said:
Yeah, the Microsoft fanboys were saying the same thing 12 years ago. I guess I'll never learn.
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Spoken like the same people who insist Microsoft needs to stop abusing its monopolistic position by separating its browser from its Operating System. Nevermind that you can download any web browser you choose, but, oh right, the easiest way to download a browser is to launch one first.

I sided with Microsoft then, and I'm siding with Apple now.
 
People who bought the Pre weren't savvy enough to know about the iPhone being a better phone on so many levels, and weren't bandwagon enough to get a Blackberry, so my reckoning is that they will not be savvy enough to avoid updating their iTunes when Apple prompts them, and will bring a bag of hurt to whatever store sold them their Pre.

C'mon, let's see some real competitors step up
 
clevin said:
Get more readings about the law, then you won't be surprised then. There is no such law apple can use and win.
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Really? Are you a lawyer or a judge? You sound so certain about this.

Apple can sue anybody for anything. Would they have a case? Ask a judge or a layer.
 
pdjudd said:
It's only a problem when companies use one monopoly to create another unrelated monopoly. So how exactly is Apple preventing Palm from competing with iTunes again??
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I guess Palm can argue:

One monopoly->iTMS
another unrelated monopoly ->iPod, iPhone

Its a good point and I think somebody should bring the case against apple to court. I think MS might throw some money behind it...:D
leonstafford said:
People who bought the Pre weren't savvy enough to know about the iPhone being a better phone on so many levels, and weren't bandwagon enough to get a Blackberry, so my reckoning is that they will not be savvy enough to avoid updating their iTunes when Apple prompts them, and will bring a bag of hurt to whatever store sold them their Pre.

C'mon, let's see some real competitors step up
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yeah, savy people knows multitasking, those who enjoys single tasking probably haven't used a computer for 20 years.

making insulting attack against a large amount of people doesn't make you savy neither. ;p
pdjudd said:
Really? Are you a lawyer or a judge? You sound so certain about this.

Apple can sue anybody for anything. Would they have a case? Ask a judge or a layer.
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are you a judge or lawyer? you don't even realize you are more certain than anybody talking here! ;p
 
make some more money

Why don't they just license out the ability to sync with Itunes, that way the companies pay money for that right. As with myself I started playing a little with Itunes, it hooked me in and next thing i bought a mac LOL As someone said earlier allow them to sync music only for example, if they like what they see and want all the other content buy Apple??
 
JoshBoy said:
Why don't they just license out the ability to sync with Itunes, that way the companies pay money for that right. As with myself I started playing a little with Itunes, it hooked me in and next thing i bought a mac LOL As someone said earlier allow them to sync music only for example, if they like what they see and want all the other content buy Apple??
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because apple is integrating and locking everything together, so apple people can live further separated from the bigger world :D

Its good business model, and apparently quite successful so far.
 
scaredpoet said:
I would be more sympathetic to Palm in this case if they at least attempted to open up lines of communication with Apple beforehand about the possibility of having sanctioned syncing between their products.
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Do we know they didn't? Or perhaps Rubenstein already knew from his own experience, that Apple would not allow it.

Make no mistake: Palm desperately needs the Pre to be a hit to survive. It was a bad move that they tried to do this, in some attempt to Stick It To Steve Jobs, Man.
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I don't think a lot of non-Apple smartphone owners use iTunes that much anyway.

They got slapped. They should count their blessings that it wasn't any worse.
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Like what? I mean, besides Apple complaining to the USB group about Pre incorrectly using an iPod identification. (That's grounds for losing USB certification.)
 
As a Pre owner I don't care, iTunes kind of sucks anyway besides it's online store. Since my music isn't purchased it's no big deal. The only reason I used iTunes is because my iPhone was already setup with it and I had the playlists all setup, but with the update I'll just set it up using other probably better syncing software. Doubletwist looks promising.

Don't give me that argument iTunes is the most popular because it's the best. I can easily say Windows is the most popular OS because it's the best.
 
Goona said:
Well said, I can't believe we should reward Palm for being lazy with a pat on the back and Apple should get fines or lawsuits.
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lol yet people on this board are entirely ok to do that in regards to rewarding the poor and punish the successful with the liberal view held on these boards

thats another matter though, just strikes me as ironic
 
thetexan said:
Don't give me that argument iTunes is the most popular because it's the best. I can easily say Windows is the most popular OS because it's the best.
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lol, good point.

I previously transfer some musics from my mac to my Pre with iTunes, and when I open the usb mode, it turns out iTunes is storing the music in unorganized fashion in a series alphabetic ordered-folders and seems each song is split in pieces with two letters as names, totally unrecognizable. The whole structure is chaotic and probably only designed for the machine rather than human to check.

I subsequently removed all those music via iTunes and drag my music under USB mode, I would like my music to be organized well, even on my Pre.
 
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