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I'm surprised to read all the comments about Apple missing out on selling some music to Pre Owners...

The sad thing is that people are forgetting is that Apple could sell tunes to Palm Owners. All Palm has to do is devise a syncing program that reads Apple's Library XML like many pre-existing syncing programs (like one from MarkSpace) do and nobody would have any problem with that. Sure it may not be all that convenient, but it is certainly not Apple's obligation or best interests to actively make life easier for its competitors. I guess you can call that unfortunate, but thats how life is sometimes.

iTunes doesn't exist to sell music, TV shows and movies. It exists to sell Apple hardware.
Overall, your point is accurate. iTunes does exist to sell Apple hardware. The success of the iPod, and the Nano have shown to be successful. Of course they arguably did not get that way just by iTunes - The iPod was a great player and the iPhone is a powerful product. But product association is not a guaranteed hit. The Apple TV is a great example of a product that is tied to iTunes and yet it's sales are disappointing - even Apple has admitted that and has basically ignored the product. Music sales are a very minor part of Apple's sales figures. I remember a breakdown of sales that mentioned that the lions share of money goes to the studios and overhead. Application sales can't be all that profitable since Apple doesn't charge for free apps (outside of developer subscriptions) and they take a small cut out of the paid apps. Apple also has to invest a great deal of money to improve the store and iTunes itself. One could argue that you can buy tons of music, use iTunes, and never pay apple a penny. But that is neither here nor there....

It's really that simple. They don't care about incremental sales of media by allowing 3rd party hardware to sync with iTunes. That wont sell another iPod or iPhone.

Indeed. The business model of iTunes is to sell hardware. That's been the case since the iPod was developed and expended to Windows. Its very similar to their business model to OSX - except the major difference is that Apple, by their own admission, is not interested in market share. They are in that business for profit of their own hardware.

ETA: Beaten to it!
 
the gui concept from xerox is one of maaaaany

Wrong. Apple licensed the GUI from the XEROX PARC center in exchange for Apple Stock. It was legally obtained and Apple has never claimed that they invented the concept of a GUI (I would love for someone to try though). In fact the concept of a GUI predates XEROX PARC by several years.

Apple was the first (probably) company to commercialize an operating system that used a GUI, but thats not the same thing as you claim
 
Lol i just find it funny that Palm is crying because Pre owners are not able to use iTunes any more :D . Why can't Palm make there own iTunes store ?
 
Why can't Palm make there own iTunes store ?

I seem to remember that the Pre allows you to purchase music on the phone from Amazon though my memory on the subject is a bit hazy. Palm doesn't have to build anything. They are free to partner with someone else and if they make a good, successful product - well they can have more flexibility then *or* strike a good deal with Amazon or someone else. It all depends. I doubt that Apple cares what Palm does. They think they have the better product.
 
I'll give you the first two parts. But as of right now, what I think Apple is saying is "we don't care if you use iTunes to sync, but don't pretend to be an iPod when you're not." If Palm comes up with another way to sync to iTunes that doesn't pretend to be an iPod, that's cool, and I hope Apple's cool with it. But if Palm creates a new way and it's blocked by Apple, then I think we can come down on Apple.

And of course, that will change Apple's mind, right ... coming "down" on them? :rolleyes:
 
Not to mention: Apple CAN still sell iTunes music to Pre owners.

Pre owners just have to drag their music from iTunes to the Pre, until Palm replaces their fake-iPod sync hack with real sync software (which can, as discussed, access iTunes and iTunes playlists so users can keep using iTunes for their music).
Or Pre owners can use readily available third party apps which, while not free, provide more functionality than just syncing w/iTunes does.


I seem to remember that the Pre allows you to purchase music on the phone from Amazon though my memory on the subject is a bit hazy.
Correct. The Pre's music app allows the user to access and buy music directly from Amazon onto the phone.

Personally I don't see this as being a big deal except for maybe users that feel they absolutely must sync their Pre w/iTunes. There are better solutions out there, IMO, and staying 'tied' to a desktop machine is what the Pre is trying to get users away from. To each their own though.


Lethal
 
Remember the seesaw battle with Real Networks? Real Player would sync iPods and then an update would break it. Then RN would release another version etc.

With Apple's market share, I think its probably time to allow limited access to their walled garden.

I wonder if AT&T has it in their agreement for Apple not to allow another carrier's phones to sync?
 
I'm usually all for apple. But this, this is an a**hole move. Apple is not obligated to give an SDK, but to intentionally block it...

It's almost like going to a gas station to ask for directions and being offered to buy a map even thought the cashier knows that the place is just a few blocks away.

Not very nice.
 
the gui concept from xerox is one of maaaaany

Is it "stealing" when you are personally invited to come and take it? Xerox wanted absolutely nothing to do with it, it was a side project for some engineers there.
 
...

Altho I can care less, but apple is obviously behaving more narrow minded and mean than MS or Palm in this case.

let us see... MS wants apple dead, and Palm is raining on apple's parade (itune)... yup, apple is narrow-minded, and there is no reason at all for this...
 
Remember the seesaw battle with Real Networks? Real Player would sync iPods and then an update would break it. Then RN would release another version etc.

With Apple's market share, I think its probably time to allow limited access to their walled garden.

I wonder if AT&T has it in their agreement for Apple not to allow another carrier's phones to sync?

Other phones CAN access your iTunes library. They just use a different method than Palm's hack of pretending to be an iPod. Apple's walled garden was never closed in the first place. ("The purpose of the iTunes Music Library.xml file is to make your music and playlists available to other applications on your computer. ")

I'm usually all for apple. But this, this is an a**hole move. Apple is not obligated to give an SDK, but to intentionally block it...

It's almost like going to a gas station to ask for directions and being offered to buy a map even thought the cashier knows that the place is just a few blocks away.

Not very nice.

They blocked one METHOD: pretending a Pre is an iPod. They DID already provide another avenue to developers (XML as linked above and discussed many times in this thread), even though, as you say, they're not obligated to. So, good for Apple :)

What Apple did here is not at all what many people think they did. (And I'm sure the misunderstanding will spread far before it fades. As usual :eek: )
 
Get rid of the PRE moochers! :eek:

Seriously, let Palm showcase i's new, er, old Apple talent and write their own syncing software...

Syncing software... We don't need no syncing software! :D Sorry I just had to mimic that line about "Matches... We don't need no stinking matches"...
 
I'm usually all for apple. But this, this is an a**hole move. Apple is not obligated to give an SDK, but to intentionally block it...

Here's a good analogy. My neighbor leaves the door unlocked so I sneak in to raid the fridge instead of my own. Does my neighbor not have the right to kick me out and lock the door behind me? Apple is not intentionally blocking Palm. They are preventing Palm from hijacking their IP (the integration into iTunes). If Palm wants access to iTunes content, its widely posted.

It's almost like going to a gas station to ask for directions and being offered to buy a map even thought the cashier knows that the place is just a few blocks away.

Not very nice.
Not really. Gas stations serve the public, but they are not obligated to serve everyone. You can be told to leave and if you do not, that can be called trespassing. Its still private property.

Apple gave Palm the boot. It doesn't matter how Palm broke in, they clearly did it without Apple's consent. Apple is telling palm to piss off their lawn. Palm never even asked directions. They strutted around like they owned the place. The ability to access the iTunes library data is published on Apple's Developer site. Palm knows where to find it.
 
Here's a good analogy. My neighbor leaves the door unlocked so I sneak in to raid the fridge instead of my own. Does my neighbor not have the right to kick me out and lock the door behind me? Apple is not intentionally blocking Palm. They are preventing Palm from hijacking their IP (the integration into iTunes). If Palm wants access to iTunes content, its widely posted.
No, that's not really a good analogy unless someone is using their Pre to access someone else's iTunes library w/o the other person's permission and Apple *is* intentionally blocking Palm unless you think the iTunes update and the Pre no longer being able to sync w/iTunes is either a coincidence.


Lethal
 
Is it "stealing" when you are personally invited to come and take it? Xerox wanted absolutely nothing to do with it, it was a side project for some engineers there.

Not just a side project. Xerox produced and sold the Star.

Also, I don't think Xerox invited Apple to lure away some of their best engineers :)

Luring people is a time-honored practice, though. Jobs did that again with his NeXT, when he stole Apple engineers. Apple did it recently, getting that IBM chip designer and others from Motorola, etc. Palm did it, when they lured away other Apple engineers. So it goes. The companies that give creative people opportunities to implement their ideas, deserve success.
 
No, that's not really a good analogy unless someone is using their Pre to access someone else's iTunes library w/o the other person's permission and Apple *is* intentionally blocking Palm unless you think the iTunes update and the Pre no longer being able to sync w/iTunes is either a coincidence.


Lethal

I think your misunderstand my analogy. Palm broke into Apple's "house" (iTunes) without Apple's consent. The update prevented that access and proceed to lock the door and kept Palm outside or in their own house "whatever legal solution that palm would like to implement"

The houses aren't libraries, they are the applications. Apple isn't stopping Palm from building their own house, renting another house, or even living in their neighborhood (the OS). This update was a "stay off our lawn" type of thing. Not exactly neighborly, but neither was Palm of course.
 
The danger in letting it slide is that opens the door for every cellphone or mp3 player company to design their products to sync with iTunes. You can't say yes to Pre and no to Zune or any of the others...
Why not? They did it with Motorola. Remember the Rokr??
 
Not just a side project. Xerox produced and sold the Star.

Really? My recollection was that it was a a project that they didn't have much of a commercial interest in.

Also, I don't think Xerox invited Apple to lure away some of their best engineers :)

Nobody wants the competition to hire away your employees. Apple knows that too. But that's not illegal.

Luring people is a time-honored practice, though. Jobs did that again with his NeXT, when he stole Apple engineers. Palm did it, when they lured away other Apple engineers.

Right. There is a difference between luring employees with a more lucrative offer and "stealing". Most companies protect their valuable IP by copyright and trademarking it along with requiring NDA's. You hire away the competition though for other reasons like:

1) Skills that the employee possess, for example their engineering skills that are unique but do not involve specific IP - like hiring away a real good chip maker to design a good chip. Apple lured away PARC guys because they wanted to create a GUI based OS, and acquiring the IP wasn't good enough so they wanted people who had experience designing - a GUI

2) Acquire someone for their knowledge of IP that they can reverse engineer. Example: Palm getting Hiring Rubenstein due to his experience with iTunes. May not be illegal what Palm did, but it sure was dirty.
 
I'm usually all for apple. But this, this is an a**hole move. Apple is not obligated to give an SDK, but to intentionally block it...

It's almost like going to a gas station to ask for directions and being offered to buy a map even thought the cashier knows that the place is just a few blocks away.

Not very nice.


Your analogy is wrong. Its like going to the gas station asking for directions and the gas station agent asking you to pay for the map you were trying to steal. Sucks for pre owners. But Palm should just license what they can or build something. And even then the analogy is wrong since you would be palm and not you the retailer.
 
Re: iTunes Sales

May I ask where you got this idea from? Do you have a credible source, because I simply don't believe it.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MzA4OHxDaGlsZElEPS0xfFR5cGU9Mw==&t=1

From Net Sales Figures:
Other music related products and services (d) 1,049(million)

While this may seem high, ipod 3-month sales was 1,665(million) and iPhone and related products had sales of 1,521(million). The Other music related products and services consists of iPod accessories, TV Shows, Music, Movies, Ringtones, and Applications. To see the real weakness in music sales just note that the introduction of the Application Store made this number increase by 19% year over year.
 
I think your misunderstand my analogy. Palm broke into Apple's "house" (iTunes) without Apple's consent. The update prevented that access and proceed to lock the door and kept Palm outside or in their own house "whatever legal solution that palm would like to implement"

The houses aren't libraries, they are the applications. Apple isn't stopping Palm from building their own house, renting another house, or even living in their neighborhood (the OS). This update was a "stay off our lawn" type of thing. Not exactly neighborly, but neither was Palm of course.
Yer right, I did take the analogy the wrong way initially but I still don't think it's a very good analogy. :p If I walk into your house, open your fridge and drink your milk I have deprived you of milk until you purchase more. Palm isn't depriving Apple of anything they are just ignoring the "iPhone/iPod only" sign on the door. Apple of course doesn't want to let anyone else in because Apple pays their bills by selling iPods, not by giving away free software like iTunes.

One thing that is interesting is that, from what I understand, if you connect a Pre to a computer w/ iTunes 8.2.1 the app will still launch (or come to the front) but the Pre won't show up in the sidebar on the left. So apparently iTunes can still 'see' the Pre but Apple has hidden it from the user. This makes me think that Apple can't completely close the door and that a cat and mouse game will start up if Palm wants it to.


Lethal
 
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