Japan Passes Law to Allow Third-Party App Stores on the iPhone

[Philip_S]

So let me get this straight. So that you and the other .001% of people that care about this can have root access you are ok with opening up the over 150 million devices of others to "just a bit of OS-level spyware"? WOW!

People say that Apple is greedy this takes the cake.

The “just a bit of OS-level spyware” is what’s already in iOS. I’d like that removed too, but since I can’t have a sandwich with no **** I’ll choose the one with less

 

[Philip_S]

that thing about disappearing apps has never happened on any worrying scale.

A bigger problem of that kind is when apps are “updated” with crippled versions without fair warning, so the only way to go back to a good version is to have a full-system backup

 

[icanhazmac]

I had a pretty clear argument you haven't replied to: there are already great OSs with multiple stores, it's not a real problem and that thing about disappearing apps has never happened on any worrying scale.

I have addressed the concept of your argument many times, in this thread and others, have you read through this thread? Although I have replied and commented on the "it hasn't happened so far so it won't happen" argument I will again point you to post #102.

Japan Passes Law to Allow Third-Party App Stores on the iPhone

I have said this many times: It hasn't happened YET because TODAY companies could only open an Android store. If alt-stores are forced on Apple world-wide then the likes of Amazon, Epic, Meta, Steam, etc. will gladly open their own Mobile stores and move their own apps to it exclusively and...

forums.macrumors.com

If I were Steam I would not bother to open an Android only mobile store as that would only gain me slightly more than 40% of the current US market and not the users that spend the most money. What I would do is wait until Apple was forced to allow alt-stores and then I would open my mobile store and be able to effectively service nearly 100% of the mobile market.

Why you ask? A Brave search revealed the following nuggets:

• The average income of iOS users vs Android users was significantly higher.
• Revenue from the iOS store is significantly higher than the GooglePlay revenue and greater than the marketshare breakdown
• iOS users spend about twice as much on apps, IAP and subs.
• Apple users tend to be more affluent, skew younger and spend more

Reference links:

App Store vs Play Store: Clash of the Titans

Check the full differences and comparison between Apple App Store Vs Google Play Store, as far as mobile app development services concerned.

www.21twelveinteractive.com

Consumer spending in apps to reach $156B across iOS and Google Play by 2023 | TechCrunch

Consumer spending in mobile apps across both Apple's App Store and Google Play will grow by 120 percent to reach $156 billion worldwide by 2023, according

techcrunch.com

Here's why Apple’s App Store is better than Google’s Play Store

Both platforms have their merits, but I'll be sticking with the App Store and Apple ecosystem, at least for a while longer.

mobilesyrup.com

In closing, I still feel that none of the obvious players: Amazon, Meta, Steam, Microsoft, etc. will bother with their own Mobile stores until they are able to service iOS customers because that is where the money is. Once they setup their own stores/marketplaces then driving traffic to those stores/marketplaces will be the #1 goal and that can be greatly increased by having exclusive agreements with top selling apps. As an example, Epic might offer incentives on Unreal Engine if devs go exclusive on Epic's mobile store.

Just because it "hasn't happened yet" doesn't mean it won't when the gold mine is forced open via overreaching legislation. I really wish people would read threads before accusing others of not addressing their arguments, your argument was proposed by many others before you.

YMMV, these are my opinions and lamentations but I feel they are reasonable potential outcomes from alt-stores being forced upon us. There are no hyperbolic claims in any of my thoughts or posts.

I may be wrong, I hope to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

Edit: WOW! @Victor Mortimer , 10+ angry faces in 2 hours?!?!?! Why you so angry bro?

 

[russell_314]

Do you folks not read?

Yes, I actually do read. I read your post and agreed with it. I wasn’t replying to other posts you made but just specifically that one. That’s why I quoted it.

I was replying to two posters who said that third party app stores would create a "security and performance nightmare" and "bloated mess".

I think calling it a security and performance nightmare would be a subjective experience. It could be to some user. It’s not for me. As to being a bloated mess, maybe compared to iOS but it’s also more functional so that’s also subjective.

I don't disagree that macOS is less secure than iOS, but I never made the opposite argument.

Well, if macOS is less secure, using that logic iOS is more secure. If you make iOS more like a macOS, then it’s also going to inherit some of those security issues. It’s a trade-off. You get more functionality, but you also lose something.

Not sure why you replied that way. My point is that macOS isn't a "security nightmare".

I was just agreeing with you. I’m not sure if there’s a different way to reply. I guess I could’ve disagreed with you? I wasn’t calling anything a security nightmare, but I agree with you that it’s less secure than iOS.

 

[russell_314]

So, macOS is less safe than iOS. That doesn’t fit Apple’s goal of providing safe and secure operating system? So macOS users don’t get the same treatment as iOS?

Or Apple is just being double standard?

I’m not sure if you’re purposely trying to be funny with the double standard comment. That’s how operating systems work. If you allow more access than that’s more area to be exploited. iOS is highly locked down so it’s very hard to exploit.

iOS is perfect for the market share it caters to. Many people that have an iPhone don’t have a clue about security. You can’t expect the average user of a phone to understand everything about security. macOS is a much smaller market and generally more advanced users. Not always though so they do get hit with malware.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

I thought John Gruber made a good point

“Laws like this are protectionist attacks that specifically target two U.S. companies — Apple and Google. The United States should treat this as a trade war, and reciprocate by passing legislation mandating third-party game stores and payments on game consoles from Sony and Nintendo. See how they like it. It’s patently hypocritical that Japan’s law targets only phones; this law wouldn’t exist if Sony were a player in phones and mobile platforms.”

The US has opened an antitrust suit against Apple for the same behaviors that Japan's legislation bans.

It's absurd the lengths that people will go to to defend Apple.

 

[mcled53]

The "monopoly" of the US cable TV market has been broken through the increased use of streaming. This occurred without the intervention of the US Gov't. But my more salient point is that for many consumers, the cost of TV has gone up due to increased fragmentation. We will eventually see if this is a opening up of the App Store is a thing. Regardless, Apple will find a way to profit from this. (and the $99 dev fee comes nowhere close to covering Apple's costs)

There is still a monopoly when Comcast bundles internet, TV, Voice & Mobile phone and security monitoring services... and don't forget NBC/Peacock. When one service subsidies another for a competive advance against competition in a different arena it is a vertical monopoly.

 

[Aoligei]

I’m not sure if you’re purposely trying to be funny with the double standard comment. That’s how operating systems work. If you allow more access than that’s more area to be exploited. iOS is highly locked down so it’s very hard to exploit.

iOS is perfect for the market share it caters to. Many people that have an iPhone don’t have a clue about security. You can’t expect the average user of a phone to understand everything about security. macOS is a much smaller market and generally more advanced users. Not always though so they do get hit with malware.

It isn’t like iOS has never been exploited before. Every iOS has accompanied with jailbreak which is using iOS exploits.

Yes, macOS’s is much smaller market, but it is growing market. It is only small fraction of macOS users are advanced user. Judging by some folks standard, macOS should just as lock down as iOS, which is not. Unless you think macOS users never put sensitive information on their Mac.

I would say, Apple’s reasoning on locking down iOS doesn’t stand. The true motive is profit and control.

 

[31 Flavas]

People not always follow the best decision when making purchases. I think it is quite evident here. If people always follow best decision and most optimal purchase, then Apple will have much smaller market and revenue. If people making informed and optimal decision, then why some folks selling organs for an iPhone?

People making purchase decision base on various factors. You can say it is trendy to have iPhone, or you can say Apple’s walled garden making purchasing Android less appealing.

Sure, you'll always trick a few people or some people will irrationally buy somethings. Point I'm rather trying to get at though is how do you square something like lots of people buying something that's really bad, like an iPhone. With something that's supposed to be really good like the MS Surface Pro tablet.

Again, if developers are being treated so poorly, so capreciously, and just being robbed with the 30% cut - when Android just has better terms, they can make their own app store, or list in 3rd party app stores, as well as use 3rd party payment providers -- or even when they list in Google's own "Play Store" they don't get arbitrary denials or have to play games to get approved. Google Play taking 30% is a lot, but 70% is better then 0% when Apple just arbitrarily denies.

Yet -- iOS is the default build platform for mobile apps and the Android a second thought if it gets considered, at all.

 

[Aoligei]

Sure, you'll always trick a few people or some people will irrationally buy somethings. Point I'm rather trying to get at though is how do you square something like lots of people buying something that's really bad, like an iPhone. With something that's supposed to be really good like the MS Surface Pro tablet.

Again, if developers are being treated so poorly, so capreciously, and just being robbed with the 30% cut - when Android just has better terms, they can make their own app store, or list in 3rd party app stores, as well as use 3rd party payment providers -- or even when they list in Google's own "Play Store" they don't get arbitrary denials or have to play games to get approved. Google Play taking 30% is a lot, but 70% is better then 0% when Apple just arbitrarily denies.

Yet -- iOS is the default build platform for mobile apps and the Android a second thought if it gets considered, at all.

Where do you get iOS is the default build platform for mobile apps and Android is second thought?

There are 2.7 millions app on Play store vs 1.8 million on iOS App Store. So iOS is clearly not default build platform for mobile apps.

Second, developers willing to take Apple’s abusive policy, because there are still money to be made under iOS. It does not make sense to completely give up on iOS market.

Does that means developers are all happy with Apple? Probably not, but they can make money on iOS, then they will put up with Apple.

 

[icanhazmac]

Does that means developers are all happy with Apple? Probably not, but they can make money on iOS, then they will put up with Apple.

As others have stated in this thread, if you are not happy vote with your wallet. If dealing with Apple is so terrible then devs should forgo the iOS market. If enough apps leave iOS, Apple will adjust. Theoretically it will be painful in the short-term but long term they will "win".

My guess is dealing with Apple isn't so terrible.

 

[Aoligei]

As others have stated in this thread, if you are not happy vote with your wallet. If dealing with Apple is so terrible then devs should forgo the iOS market. If enough apps leave iOS, Apple will adjust. Theoretically it will be painful in the short-term but long term they will "win".

My guess is dealing with Apple isn't so terrible.

It is same as if my rent is cheap enough, I can put up with abusive landlord.

If there is money to be made on App Store, developers are willing to put up with Apple. It doesn’t make sense to not to make money via App Store along side from Android.

 

[nitrobear]

Welcome to your security and performance nightmare Japan.

That's Apple's fault if they can't do a good job while maintaining a software that's, honestly, not even that hard to work with.

 

[icanhazmac]

It is same as if my rent is cheap enough, I can put up with abusive landlord.

Agreed, that is a personal choice. So again I say, if Apple is so horrible then walk away from the iOS market, make a stand for what you believe in.

If you have an abusive landlord, move out, even though in the short term it will be painful. If everyone moves out the landlord will have to adjust or go broke. If everyone stays and just "puts up with it" they all lose and the landlord wins. Simple concept.

According to others in this thread there is plenty of money to be made on the Android side of the market so if they are so great to deal with then go exclusively Android until such time as Apple give you what you want. If that never happens then the market has spoken.

Anyone who puts up with the abusive landlord is just whoring out their values for dollars. Again, in this case, my guess is the landlord isn't abusive at all.

 

[31 Flavas]

Where do you get iOS is the default build platform for mobile apps and Android is second thought?

There are 2.7 millions app on Play store vs 1.8 million on iOS App Store. So iOS is clearly not default build platform for mobile apps.

Second, developers willing to take Apple’s abusive policy, because there are still money to be made under iOS. It does not make sense to completely give up on iOS market.

Does that means developers are all happy with Apple? Probably not, but they can make money on iOS, then they will put up with Apple.

Correct me here, but money. Money is the reason why iOS is considered more or first. Developers just make far more money in aggregate iOS sales then they do on Android. Is that not true?

 

[icanhazmac]

Correct me here, but money. Money is the reason why iOS is considered more or first. Developers just make far more money in aggregate iOS sales then they do on Android. Is that not true?

It is true, reference post #354

 

[31 Flavas]

It is true, reference post #354

Maybe Google should do something about it...

I mean, that likely means that 3rd Party whatever (whether it's stores, payments, IAP, etc) are pointless, or even... wait a second -- detrimental. Since if few are using the 1st party store, why bother with the extra hassle of a 3rd party store or payment system.

I'm not a developer - But, understanding also has been that since there are just a handful of iOS devices and only a few screen sizes (resolutions) to consider, there are far less concerns about performance and display issues. And because around 90% run either the prior iOS or the latest iOS (with more then a super majority running the latest iOS) it's less troublesome know what features are available and therefore easier code to code for, since there are far less edge cases.

 

[h.gilbert]

Yes, I actually do read. I read your post and agreed with it. I wasn’t replying to other posts you made but just specifically that one. That’s why I quoted it.


I think calling it a security and performance nightmare would be a subjective experience. It could be to some user. It’s not for me. As to being a bloated mess, maybe compared to iOS but it’s also more functional so that’s also subjective.


Well, if macOS is less secure, using that logic iOS is more secure. If you make iOS more like a macOS, then it’s also going to inherit some of those security issues. It’s a trade-off. You get more functionality, but you also lose something.


I was just agreeing with you. I’m not sure if there’s a different way to reply. I guess I could’ve disagreed with you? I wasn’t calling anything a security nightmare, but I agree with you that it’s less secure than iOS.

Ok, I see. My original comment saying "Like macOS then?" was supposed to be sarcastic. Hard to come across that way in words, I know. I just thought that those saying opening up iOS would be a "security nightmare" and "bloated mess" were being over the top, because macOS is open and yet none of those.

 

[russell_314]

Ok, I see. My original comment saying "Like macOS then?" was supposed to be sarcastic. Hard to come across that way in words, I know. I just thought that those saying opening up iOS would be a "security nightmare" and "bloated mess" were being over the top, because macOS is open and yet none of those.

Perhaps you were being sarcastic, but your comment was still true that it would make iOS less secure. I mean android isn’t a bloated mess. Well sometimes it can be but that’s a whole other discussion.

 

[russell_314]

It isn’t like iOS has never been exploited before. Every iOS has accompanied with jailbreak which is using iOS exploits.

Sure, it’s been exploited. Any operating systems can be exploited. Some are easier to exploit than others though

Yes, macOS’s is much smaller market, but it is growing market. It is only small fraction of macOS users are advanced user. Judging by some folks standard, macOS should just as lock down as iOS, which is not. Unless you think macOS users never put sensitive information on their Mac.

I think the percentage of macOS users that are more advanced is higher than the percentage of iOS users just because everyone has a phone and not everyone has a computer. Yes there are clueless people that own iPhones, Macs or any other piece of hardware

I would say, Apple’s reasoning on locking down iOS doesn’t stand. The true motive is profit and control.

that is an opinion. It might be part of the motive, but I’d say that’s speculation. Every company makes decisions motivated by profit. I find it entertaining that some people think businesses are somehow like grandmothers that invite people over their house to help them.

 

[AppliedMicro]

there are 3rd party apps that become defacto required.

Sucks, being forced to use a certain provider for a certain service, doesn't it?

But when Meta decides to deliver their app outside the Apple App store, they are going to bypass Apple's strict standards on data collection.

At least in the EU (and elsewhere) it will still be reviewed by Apple.
The same Apple that took years to figure out the siphoning of clipboard data.

take WhatsApp for example. Where I live it is a mandatory app for doing business. (...) And I will be forced to use their app due to it being required for me to do business.

👉 Not if you lived in the EU.

Because the European Union does have a new law that mandates interoperability for dominant messenging services that are designated as gatekeeper:

"To comply with a new EU law, the Digital Markets Act (DMA), which comes into force on March 7th, we’ve made major changes to WhatsApp and Messenger to enable interoperability with third-party messaging services"

So that people like you and your business aren't forced to use it anymore.

👉 You must surely approve and welcome such legislation, mustn't you?

 

[icanhazmac]

Also, your hypothetical scenario has not happened on either MacOS or Android.

Look at Android, this hasn’t happened. Despite there being other app stores, apps are always almost listed on Google Play.

What you describe isn’t going to happen.

Also, those 3rd Party Stores (there are like 2 so far?) are basically non existing in the public eye and I doubt it’s gonna change

For most it will not fragment as they would never consider going outside of it.

Your doomsday scenarios you hypothesize are merely FUD to scare people.

There are a lot of stores. In case of Samsung their store, one for the provider. But everything you need is still in Google's Playstore

A lot? I literally only use Google play.

Look at Android - alternative app stores exist, yet virtually everything of note is distributed via the central marketplace that is Google Play. I honestly think your concern is a non-issue because 9 times out of 10, people will use the default store.

You're worried about Meta or Amazon or whoever exclusively distributing their software via their marketplaces, but this simply has not happened.

No developer is going to lose revenue by doing this.

If what you’re saying is true then why hasn’t it happened on Android? Android has always allowed third party stores yet all of these apps still exist on the official app store.

You're ignoring the side of things were we can observe this already; Android. Meta doesn't have an app store. I believe Epic does, but I'm not aware of any must-have software being exclusive to it. Unless fortnite is absolutely critical in your life. Meta knows that, if you want people on Instagram, it has to be in the easiest to access stores.

Android allows for alternative app stores. This isn't a problem on Android as everything is on the Play Store. Why would it be a problem on iOS?

there are already great OSs with multiple stores, it's not a real problem and that thing about disappearing apps has never happened on any worrying scale.

Android have allowed third party App Store for long time. Did Facebook left Google Play Store and had its own App Store?

Rocket League Sideswipe is being removed from the Play Store next week

With the launch of the Epic Games Store on Android, it’s been announced that Rocket League Sideswipe will be removed...

9to5google.com

Well, it seems that I called it. Most of you above said I was incorrect, being hyperbolic, etc. by claiming that the likes of Epic, Steam, Amazon, Meta, etc would offer exclusive deals but here is an app leaving the Google Play Store for Epic. This is the beginning I was talking about. Please stop claiming that alt-stores aren't going to cause fragmentation.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Please stop claiming that alt-stores aren't going to cause fragmentation.

It’s not a big problem - but desirable competition.

It’s up to store operators like Apple or Google to acknowledge the value of popular IP and pay for it to be available on their stores. And/or offer attractive, competitive licensing conditions and commission structure to third-party developers.

It’s not as if Apple hasn’t been doing it themselves.
There are iOS game I might be interested in that I can’t buy due to being exclusively available through Apple Arcade.

 

[JapanApple]

Again people use what they want to use. Regardless of the whole crap thrown conversations about this whole subject matter.; a Japanese users of Japan App Store. I have no intention to use third-party stores that are here in Japan or wherever the hell they are. I’m a long time user of Apple there’s no way in hell am I gonna use a third-party App Store for Apple. Case closed that’s my feeling that’s my opinion that’s what I want.

 

[AppliedMicro]

PS: …and why wouldn‘t app developers stay loyal to Apple and their App Store when offered a competitive commission rates - considering that stores comes preinstalled on every iOS device?

• 10% for each additional dollar spent up to $9.99 transaction value
• 5% on the transaction amount exceeding $9.99

Sounds fair enough to me.
Apple could easily do it profitably at their scale, still make loads of money
And the pricing would surely encourage developers to remain on Apple‘s store.