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Jobs Health Concerns Related to Food Absorption, Not Cancer?

Yeah, that's not Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor has nothing to do with probability, only simplicity. Paraphrased, it's not "the most likely explanation is the correct one", but "the simplest explanation is the correct one". And the simplest answer is that the explanation given by Jobs is the right one. If you start adding in assumptions to decide that it is false, you're most definitely not using Occam's Razor.

And you still haven't said what's improbable about Jobs' explanation and what the more probable explanation is.
 
Spades said:
Yeah, that's not Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor has nothing to do with probability, only simplicity. Paraphrased, it's not "the most likely explanation is the correct one", but "the simplest explanation is the correct one". And the simplest answer is that the explanation given by Jobs is the right one. If you start adding in assumptions to decide that it is false, you're most definitely not using Occam's Razor.

And you still haven't said what's improbable about Jobs' explanation and what the more probable explanation is.
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It's not clear who you are directing this remark towards, but I think it's absurd to invoke a principle of science such as Occam's Razor in this instance. It's very apparent that the same set of facts is leading to contradictory conclusions, without the addition of any "assumptions." The reason why this is happening is that the information on which conclusions are based is incomplete and ambiguous, so the conclusions people draw are based more upon how they feel than what they know. Apple and Steve could easily eliminate the ambiguity by providing a bit more information. I'd be interested to hear the argument against them doing so.
 
Bobolicious said:
I cannot even look at my own health records without cause and permission and then access is limited. People who work in hospitals/clinics have been terminated for looking at their own records. Read the HIPAA regulations. It's true.
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Way, way off topic... but that's untrue, at least in the U.S. A patient owns their medical records. You have to request the copy and you will be charged a copying fee (which is standardized). But it's not restricted.

Bobolicious said:
All the speculation about his health is just that, speculation. As I mentioned before, he is under no obligation to reveal his health status. I have not read one entry from anyone who has examined Steve Jobs or read is medical records.
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And if you had, THAT would be a HIPAA violation. Speculation on the health conditions of celebrities/political figures is not violating anyone's rights. Revealing health information of someone you're caring for is a whole different ballgame, and rightly carries consequences.

Bobolicious said:
Have a great day everyone. It was -46 in Northwestern North Dakota this morning!
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And I was complaining at -7F. Bone chilling!

Dave
 
bretm said:
Seriously? That was on a fifth grade reading level. What part of illogical, or probable don't you understand? Maybe it's the word assume?
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:eek:

I read that post at like 1 in the morning when you wrote it, i just read it again and i really cannot fathom why i didnt understand it.
 
Dave00 said:
Way, way off topic... but that's untrue, at least in the U.S. A patient owns their medical records. You have to request the copy and you will be charged a copying fee (which is standardized). But it's not restricted.


And if you had, THAT would be a HIPAA violation. Speculation on the health conditions of celebrities/political figures is not violating anyone's rights. Revealing health information of someone you're caring for is a whole different ballgame, and rightly carries consequences.


And I was complaining at -7F. Bone chilling!

Dave
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I do own my medical records and as you said, I cannot access them without asking permission. When given permission I am given "restricted" access only to that which I requested access. I cannot sit down and read my chart. Not happening.

A lot of people want his health information. They aren't going to get it. As you mentioned, if his physicians or anyone else released his health information without his permission, they are in for a lot of trouble.

HIPAA rules and regulations are interpreted and implemented differently.

In our medical center, if I access my medical record, I get a warning from the security office. Repeated warnings for "unlawful" access can result in termination.

In the medical center where my daughter receives pre-natal care, she is encouraged to log onto the medical center computer, read her chart, look at lab work, check her appointment schedule and receives information relative to her ongoing pregnancy.

Two medical centers with widely divergent interpretation of the same HIPAA law.

I made that comment simply because everyone writing in this Forum is simply speculating. No one has any information. It is all guesswork. When it comes to health care that is folly.

However, as someone mentioned...it is called Mac Rumors.

+35 today, go figure! Where else can you have a 75 degree swing in temperature within 24-48 hours!

Dr B :D
 
Now I'm gonna tell ya how it's gonna be,

With Steve Jobs lifetime guarantee

Record what you want, both night and day

Then re-record, not fade away

Re-record, not fade away

Re-record, not fade away
 

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Speculative at best

puckhead193 said:
i'm surprized no one posted this by now....

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10458477/1/apples-jobs-mulls-liver-transplant-report.html
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They are simply reporting on a Bloomberg article that is widely speculative and does not cite anyone treating Jobs.

According to AlleyInsider:

Bloomberg doesn't specify if any of the "people who are monitoring his illness" who think Steve will have a liver transplant actually have any access to Jobs or his medical records. We asked the reporters for clarification; one tells us they "can't offer any more details."

They repeatedly quote Steven Brower, professor and chairman of surgery at Mercer University School of Medicine in Savannah, Georgia. But Brower "hasn’t treated Jobs and doesn’t know details of his condition."
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Until Bloomberg names names, they can just as well be making it up. They already speculated about Jobs getting his Pancreas removed yesterday - proof that Bloomberg is just speculating like everybody else.
 
pdjudd said:
They are simply reporting on a Bloomberg article that is widely speculative and does not cite anyone treating Jobs.
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OOO didn't read that article. :eek:
I think bloomberg while a good mayor, needs to also focus on his business
 
Complications in the pancreas ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreas ) can cause digestive problems and thus make it hard to absorb nutrients. The pancreas secretes enzymes to the small intestine that digest food into absorbable compounds. This may not be a resurgence of cancer, but Jobs' bout with pancreatic cancer may have damaged the organ so it doesn't function properly. Food absorption can be a very serious problem too....if the pancreas completely fails then you basically have to be hooked to an IV for the rest of your life.
 
IJ Reilly said:
It's not clear who you are directing this remark towards, but I think it's absurd to invoke a principle of science such as Occam's Razor in this instance.
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If you re-read his post, I think you'll understand that was exactly his point. Ockham's Razor has no applicability in this case.

He was referring to our resident physician emeritus pprior. Specifically, he was responding to SPUY767 who first explicitly mentioned William of Ockham.

Either way, I am only responding because of the total lack of understand that most people have of what Ockham's Razor actually means. Spades deserves some credit for his post as it shed some clarity on the matter.
 
I'm a Gastroenterologist (digestive and liver diseases), so to perhaps quell some speculation.....

"Sounds" like Mr. Jobs had/has a neuroendocrine tumor (NET). These are a rare form of cancer involving the pancreas. The most common type of cancer involving the pancreas is an adenocarcinoma, which is what Patrick Swayze most likely has.

NETs are very curable by surgery alone IF not metastatic (having spread) at the time of diagnosis. The problem is, what to do if they have spread locally (e.g. not too far away from the pancreas). For example, I have a patient whom I diagnosed with a NET who I referred for surgery, and she had a few surrounding lymph nodes that had cancer in them found at the time of her resection. Her oncologist tells me that no adjuvant (chemo or radiation) therapy post-operatively has been proven to affect survival. BUT, this type of cancer is pretty indolent in and of itself, so why torture someone with chemo if it's not going to affect their survival in the first place?

As alluded to in a previous post, the issue regarding "absorptive" difficulties may be a consequence of the the therapy Mr. Jobs had for his cancer initially. Surgery, while curative, can involve removing quite a bit of pancreas. In general terms, the pancreas has two functions:

1. Endocrine -- makes insulin, and it's opposite, glucagon
2. Exocrine -- makes enzymes involved in the digestion of proteins, fats and some carbohydrates

If you don't make enough of #2, you can't break down ingested food into components that the body (=the small intestine) can absorb. Hence, the "failure to thrive" type picture that Mr. jobs seems to be portraying at this time. There are replacement enzymes one can take to try to replace these, but they are effective to a point.

He could certainly have metastatic disease involving other parts of his body as well, including his intestinal tract.

I suppose he could have recurrent disease, but this is pretty rare, and they have said that his current condition is not related to a recurrence of his cancer.

Regardless, it's nothing happy for him. I wish him well for his health, and hope he comfortable no matter what.

On a side note.....the one digestive tract cancer we CAN screen for and prevent is colon cancer.....so if it's your time, go get your colonoscopy!
 
jnyepu said:
He could certainly have metastatic disease involving other parts of his body as well, including his intestinal tract.
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One question about this. Would it not be unusual for metastatic disease to occur (or at least not be detected) until nearly five years has passed since the initial diagnoses and treatment? Presumably he like any other cancer patient has been subjected to regular CT or PET/CT scans, with MRI follow-ups, if anything suspect was discovered.
 
preservative said:
Now I'm gonna tell ya how it's gonna be,

With Steve Jobs lifetime guarantee

Record what you want, both night and day

Then re-record, not fade away

Re-record, not fade away

Re-record, not fade away
Click to expand...



And with the Mac strong to this day

Twenty-five years we celebrate,

Ease and simplicity to operate,

Power and elegance that is insanely great!



Into the future with stunning design

We excite with this stimulation of mind,

Our files and documents still so easy to find,

Thanks to the founders of a computer of this kind.



Jobs and Woziak had a plan,

To make a computer better than Fortran,

A machine that with use would withstand,

A revolution for the home and people across the land.



A company with inspired thinkers,

Which gave birth to a new millenium of weblinkers,

Still faithful upon that brand, six colors long ago,

An Apple logo we are still proud to show.

-----------------------

-Ward
 
i think it is time to go for jobs so we can have a 2 button mouse, etc. he is out of touch
 
WardC said:
And with the Mac strong to this day

Twenty-five years we celebrate,
Ease and simplicity to operate,
Power and elegance that is insanely great.................


-----------------------

-Ward
Click to expand...

That was actually pretty cool ;)


With all this technology it's clear to see

It is much cheaper to just buy a PC

Spend all your money if you like

Since apple computers are just a price hike

Then so buy a PC and save some bucks

So buy a PC and save some bucks

So buy a PC and save some bucks
 
IJ Reilly said:
One question about this. Would it not be unusual for metastatic disease to occur (or at least not be detected) until nearly five years has passed since the initial diagnoses and treatment? Presumably he like any other cancer patient has been subjected to regular CT or PET/CT scans, with MRI follow-ups, if anything suspect was discovered.
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The 5-year mark is one that oncologists use as a "cured" marker, that is, once you have no evidence of recurrent disease at 5 years, you are considered cured. The reason surveillance scans/PET, tumor markers, etc. are done regularly is just for the reason you allude to - that is, surveillance. Depending on the type of cancer and his staging at the time of his initial treatment, it might be unusual, but again, this can vary based on what he had and it's stage at diagnosis.
 
jnyepu said:
The 5-year mark is one that oncologists use as a "cured" marker, that is, once you have no evidence of recurrent disease at 5 years, you are considered cured. The reason surveillance scans/PET, tumor markers, etc. are done regularly is just for the reason you allude to - that is, surveillance. Depending on the type of cancer and his staging at the time of his initial treatment, it might be unusual, but again, this can vary based on what he had and it's stage at diagnosis.
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The way it's been explained to me is after a certain number of years of being cancer-free (five being common for many cancers), the probabilities of seeing the disease again are about the same as someone who hasn't seen the disease before.
 
IJ Reilly said:
The way it's been explained to me is after a certain number of years of being cancer-free (five being common for many cancers), the probabilities of seeing the disease again are about the same as someone who hasn't seen the disease before.
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The five year survival is usually discussed as a prognostic measure of the characteristic of the cancer/success of treatment(s). It's not really a measure of 'cured' per se. You can still have cancer and have a 100% 5 year survival rate if it is non-aggressive or there are good treatments to keep it in check. 5 years is a reasonably long time to assess an outcome but there is always the push to expand studies to address longer-term outcomes to 10 years, 20 years etc where possible. Unfortunately this costs a lot of time and money and gets logistically increasingly difficult.

In some cases 5 year survival rates can be misleading. For instance if you get a cancer young and your life expectancy is another 20 years, the 5 year survival rate may not be the best measure to decide on treatment. i.e. treatment A may result in an 80% 5 year survival, but at 10 years only 10%. Treatment B on the other hand may result in a 60% 5 year survival, but a 50% 10 year survival. It's why you need an awesome oncologist to talk you through all available options, their outcomes, and to help you reconcile them with your own goals, ambitions, and tolerance/acceptance of treatment side effects.
 
well, we do know from the contradictory statements ('everything is ok' to 'small problem' to '6mo leave') that clearly there is stuff being hidden, and that frankly, we are being lied to... doesn't matter... because in the end, one's (poor) health cannot be hidden from the masses. It is not our business on a personal level. But, You can hide scars, even incompetence, but cannot hide major medical problems for too long before it catches up. I wish Jobs well. And I really thank him for the time he spent turning around apple, but it would be good to get some freshness as well in the company with his departure.
 
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