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Steve M said:
Here is the CURRENT situation:

1. The iPod is, by FAR, the most successful personal digital music player on the market. It's a household word. Folks who aren't even all that technically savvy know what an iPod is, but they have no clue what an "MP3 player" is.

2. The iTunes Music Store is, by FAR, the most successful online music store available. It's the easiest to use, most convenient, has an exceptionally large library, lots of great exclusives, and is always adding new features and more & more music and books.

Currently, that is how things are. And given that current state of affairs, it makes NO SENSE for Apple to:
- Dilute iPod sales by opening up AAC/Fairplay to other MP3 players
- Dilute iTunes Music Store sales by allowing iPod to play .WMA files.

It makes zero sense to do this as things stand right now.

But it would be trivially easy to allow third party MP3 players to support Fairplay-DRM'd AAC files. Heck, you can play music purchased from iTMS on any MP3 player right now -- just burn, re-rip as MP3, and you're all set.

It would also be technologically easy to enable the iPod to play .WMA files.

It's MOSTLY a matter of licensing technologies.

Believe me -- if the situation changes where either or both of those maneuvers makes sense, Apple could make these changes VERY quickly.

But for now -- there is NO POINT in doing it.

Oh yeah, and as to the comment about iPod's supposed short lifespan due to the "battery" issue -- what a load of FUD that is. You can have Apple install a new battery, and there are several companies that will replace the iPod's battery for FAR less than the cost of buying a new iPod. This is NOT an issue. I fully expect to be able to use my iPod for an unlimited amount of time, even AFTER the original battery dies.

1) When have Apple ever moved 'very quickly'?
2) iPod is getting close to Kleenex. It's advantage as a brand will be lost like 'walkman' when others have better cheaper products.
3) The public don't drink the kool-aid. They buy HP digital cameras because they're cheap. If they wanted quality and were prepared to pay for it (and wait for features) they'd buy more Macs.

Apple is selling and marketing iPods the same way it does it's other products. Everyone here loves it. It'll be easy for Apple to prove and establish a market for digital media without dominating it long term. It's the direction we're headed in.

To be really successful they should partner with anyone who wants to use the format and move forward with the technology. All the consumer electronics companies know this (which is why new formats live and die on support not technology).

Sony's Minidisc players were tiny and cool before iPod, they didn't sell for lack of support.

I want Apple to win but at this rate in 2 years we'll be arguing the merits of the interface while the market's locked into a competitor and we're overpaying for elegance. Sound familiar?

Mr. Jobs is in many ways a genius but he's a high-end geek. He's not about what's popular and Pop music and pop culture is.
 
bcsmith said:
The only reason not to do this would be if the Music Store was making money, but various peeps from Apple have said time and again that the sole purpose of the music store is to drive iPod sales. Had they opened up to Real's service, then Real could also drive iPod sales. Not necessarily a bad thing. If Real's service fails down the road, then the customers could just switch to the iTunes Music Store and still use their iPod.

-- Ben

Actually, it would be difficult to make the iPod work with Real's software - especially since Apple has no control over it. The iPod's firmware would have to be altered. iTunes code would have to be altered. So would Real's code. If any problems occurred, it would tarnish Apple's name. That's the ultimate downside.
 
Beta or not Beta?

A couple of posts have shown concern over Apple pushing "Beta" or backing the wrong horse, or whatever. I don't see the analogy. Emerging technology of the eighteies isn't quite the same as standards support today. A VHS tape and VCR was completely different from a Beta tape and VCR; now we're talking about Apple choosing whether or not to implement the reading of a readable format.

It's more akin to the regions of DVD's. One DVD player is like another, but until recently you didn't see many universal players. The movie industry can just as easily press a DVD in one format as another. I don't think record companies are going totell Apple it can no longer have access to their content just because Apple chooses to encode it differently to the majority of others --others who are in bed with Microsoft which would like to get its hands on the rights to all media content in the world.

Besides, if the trend is going to be toward individual arrangements with independent artists, then Apple has the edge because musicians know Apple's cool.

If you're concerned with a Beta/VHS scenario, why do you have an Apple computer? If we go down the WMA route, pretty soon all ripping software is going to be controlled too, and you won't be able to choose your own standard of choice in your own home. But, hey, we'll be compatible. Compatible according to Microsoft (homogenous). Compatible to Apple means your tools can do whatever you want them to do.

Rip
 
iPod 101

iggyb said:
Still wish Apple would open up to formats like .ogg and FLAC.

Once more then - the iPod uses the PortalPlayer chip for codec - it doesn't support .ogg or FLAC (unless the new ones changed that). Anyway the old ones don't.
 
ClimbingTheLog said:
Once more then - the iPod uses the PortalPlayer chip for codec - it doesn't support .ogg or FLAC (unless the new ones changed that). Anyway the old ones don't.
The PortalPlayer chip has two ARM7TDMI cores, which is more than enough to decode at least Ogg Vorbis (don't know about FLAC).
 
I think whats missing from this debate is the fact that Real Player sounds HORRIBLE. Their sound quality it terrible.
 
More iPod formats?

Now this, I agree with. It appears that .ogg, at least, may be in OS X's and the iPod's future. After all, it's a format popularized on the Unix platform, which is what OS X is based on, and it's an open standard (no licensing worries to deal with if you want to use it).

I can completely understand why Apple didn't want to work with RealNetworks though. Real is slowly going down the tubes, and they're just trying to force someone big to partner up with them, to keep their format alive.

From the beginning, they made it pretty clear that if Apple wasn't going to be friendly to them, they'd shun them and try Microsoft. Sounds like more of a threat to me than someone truly wanting a partnership.

There was a time when I was excited about RealAudio format - but that was years ago, when they were the only major player supporting multiple platforms for streaming audio. They turned their software into a messy, bloated kludge that constantly nagged you to purchase it - and meanwhile, the other formats made real advances that allowed them to stream audio and video better than Real did.

I have nothing saved on any of my computers that's in .RA format, that would ever want to store on an iPod to listen to later. It's just not going to add value to my iPod listening experience at all.


iggyb said:
Still wish Apple would open up to formats like .ogg and FLAC.
 
SiliconAddict said:
The only reason Jobs didn't bite is the way Real came at him. The guy is the biggest most arrogant ***hole out there. From what I hear bigger then Gates and in most cases it sure has heck isn’t warranted. Short of Real crawling on their hands and knees to him he would have laughed them off.
Quite honestly I expect to see the iPod at a 10% market share in 5 years. Job's ego will guarantee that it will occur. :mad: Reality time you stubborn ***. You are going to be marginalized out of the market at some point if you don’t get some team members on board and sure as heck HP is NOT enough.
Enjoy the good times because when you are on top of the clouds the fall is a killer.

Since you obviously know how to run Apple better than Jobs, why don't you go show him how it's done? Maybe you could even find a way to stuff a G5 in a Powerbook.

Jobs doesn't know what he's doing anyway. Creating the #1 MP3 player and #1 music store on the market. How arrogant! :rolleyes:
 
Maverick said:
Jobs doesn't know what he's doing anyway. Creating the #1 MP3 player and #1 music store on the market. How arrogant!

quote:
' Because of my role, my group was extremely sensitive to Wintel's threat to the Mac platform. Apple still had about a 20% market share at the time, but there was a prevailing company-wide mentality that ignored Wintel altogether. "We make the best computer and best OS, why would anyone want to buy anything else?" '
 
hahahahaha I'm sure jobs soley made the decision on what type of support... he makes all of Apples decisions from top to bottom.. He micromanages everyone... You can't even poop at Apple without SJ's ok.. haha...
 
Apple's unexpected challenge: dominance

Underdog risks losing early lead in digital music

By Reuters *|* May 9, 2004

SAN FRANCISCO -- The runaway success of the iPod poses a happy problem for Apple Computer Inc. that the computer maker has not had in years: how to remain the market favorite, not just the favorite underdog.

Apple has sold more than 3 million of its sleek iPods, taking nearly 50 percent of the market for digital music players, and its iTunes online music store claims 70 percent of all songs bought online.

But now Apple faces a renewed push by Microsoft Corp., which wants to shape the digital standard for music on the Internet, raising the risk that Apple could again fail to hold early gains in a fast-growing market, analysts said.

''The ultimate risk is that they do get marginalized, just like they did in the PC area," said Phil Leigh, an analyst with market research firm Inside Digital Media.

For now, Apple remains the commercial force to be reckoned with in digital music, an unaccustomed front-and-center position for a company that founder Steve Jobs has compared to BMW for its reputation for engineering excellence, high sticker prices, and single-digit market share.

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2004/05/09/apples_unexpected_challenge_dominance/
 
I find it quite comical that an MP3 player is what is really putting Apple on the map again. Hopefully this will move some people over to the greener grass.
 
iggyb said:
Still wish Apple would open up to formats like .ogg and FLAC.

Sometimes I dream that Itunes supports WMA...then I wake up. :D

It would be cool though if Apple supported it, 97% of users in the world can play it and I wouldn't have to wait for Itunes to offer some of my favorite bands, however they are getting better.
 
Hmm,
I wonder if maybe Apple already has plans for video content downloads to an IpodTV. Adding Real to the mix would have given them access to some proprietery apple mobilQT code. Reengineer that model and Real is back in business as a competitor again. I do not think Steve would dis Real unless he knew they were on the way out and desperate. Just my take on it.
 
Um, the "Browser Wars"?

BornAgainMac said:
I am looking forward to the Microsoft Music Store to compete directly with the iTunes Music Store. I would like to see Microsoft lose a turf battle. The media will basically be free advertisement for Apple.

Microsoft lost the browser wars on the Mac platform.

I don't think MS is sweating losing 3-5% of the population from those using its (free) browser. If anything, now they don't have to maintain it...

I wouldn't bet against MS on the music store thing. I love Apple, but SJ has stars in his eyes again. Just because you make the best product, heck just because you break the mold, doesn't guarantee success. If Apple had liscensed the Mac OS to other computer makers early on, they'd be no MS right now. Steve gets a little crazy with his world domination dillusions. WMA will be the Windows of music players, and AAC the Mac OS, unless he changes course.

Speaking of Sony, remember how everyone said Betamax was better than VHS?
 
Music format wars....

Quite true and well said.... Although I think the reality neither MS nor Apple wants to face is, *neither* WMA nor AAC is going to become a "world standard" of music formats.

The winner has been good old MP3 all along. Those really into high quality audio are now looking at formats like FLAC that don't compress the audio too much and lose quality, but still save some space over just storing things as raw .WAV files or what-not.

The music stores, just like real life stores, will win respective portions of marketshare based mostly on how successfully they can advertise to the public. (They'll lose or keep that marketshare based on the overall buying/shopping experience people have when using them.) The format the songs are sold in is largely irrelevant, because they all use something rather proprietary in the interest of digital rights management. The public doesn't like or really want digital rights management so they either buy the songs however they come and convert them back to MP3 afterwards, or they just deal with it - using whatever player comes standard-issue with the music store they're using.

While doing on-site PC service, I'm often surprised by how many people were downloading music illegally using Kazaa, Morpheus, LimeWire, etc. - only to find those programs loaded their Windows machines up with spyware/adware and rendered them almost unusable. After that, they wanted to get rid of the file sharing stuff, but *didn't have any idea* there were legal alternatives they could use! This tells me that nobody is doing a good enough job of pitching online music stores to the general public! These folks haven't so much as heard of iTunes until I tell them about it. I think those of us with a real interest in computers often forget that we walk around with a heightened sense of attention to computer-related announcements. The average consumer doesn't - so you have to almost "hit them over the head with advertising" to get it to sink in, if you want them to shop online for their music. Microsoft just might do this, by rolling the whole thing into future versions of Windows and coupling it with a marketing blitz. Apple, by contrast, seems to think they're advertising "plenty enough" already, and obviously they aren't....


mhatter said:
I don't think MS is sweating losing 3-5% of the population from those using its (free) browser. If anything, now they don't have to maintain it...

I wouldn't bet against MS on the music store thing. I love Apple, but SJ has stars in his eyes again. Just because you make the best product, heck just because you break the mold, doesn't guarantee success. If Apple had liscensed the Mac OS to other computer makers early on, they'd be no MS right now. Steve gets a little crazy with his world domination dillusions. WMA will be the Windows of music players, and AAC the Mac OS, unless he changes course.

Speaking of Sony, remember how everyone said Betamax was better than VHS?
 
One of the attractions of the Apple Music Store for record labels is that it offers liberal, but effective protection of their product. If you open this standard to all online music stores, Apple's Unique Selling Point has gone. It's also likely to mean that players other than the iPod will eventually use this standard. So Apple's appeal to the music industry as a fair but secure online music outlet will evaporate.

Financially it's more beneficial for Apple to ensure good and plentiful product for the Music Store (which translates into music and iPod sales), than to earn money from AAC licenses.

And for those who say Apple is too 'small' to win a fight between other companies, they should bear one thing in mind. Apple may 'only' have 5% of the computer market (still not a bad figure for an individual manufacturer). But it has a substantially higher market share in the music download, and the MP3 Player market. In fact it is the market leader. And in fact, in this area it sets the expectations consumers have of other companies and services. So for once Apple is in a very strong position to dictate their terms to the industry, and to protect a very large revenue source.
 
Apple is currently in no position to dictate anything, and the iPod, iTMS, and Apple's DRM strategy, while bellwether technology, are still a business and consumer joke. Apple might be in a position to dictate what happens if they can successfully navigate this inflection point in their history, but that remains to be seen. Based on past performance, I am pessimistic. I don't think they have the required resources or ability, although the recent division spin-off and windows toolkit are cute and, perhaps, baby steps in the right direction.

The digital multi-media content and converged device revolution and marketplace have barely materialized and Apple's apparently 'huge lead' of this complex market still in its infancy will ultimately translate to single-digit marketshare if things continue as they are. The market is more likely destined to be led by a technology and media giant, such as Sony, who can deliver consumer products globally to a degree that Apple can only dream about and will have a user base 2+ orders of magnitude greater than Apple's, once established.

The core concepts of iPod, iTMS, and DRM already exist as other products, in others' hands, and/or can be bought overnight and married with a music publishing powerhouse. Can Apple become a publishing powerhouse on the scale of Sony or Time Warner in the same timeframe? Probably not, and if not, then how are they then going to own or drive the format for music (or players)? How will they do it when Sony has 300 million players in consumer's hands to Apple's 3 million? The answer is that they won't, and the iPod will have to continue to expand support for non-Apple formats if it is to retain any shred of viability. It will be another Apple toy.

So, Apple is likely to be left in the dust by these larger and more adept players, because, while Apple is an unparalleled innovator when it comes to new technology, design, and branding, they are crippled by their own elitism and lack of resources, and perhaps their craziness, when it comes to creating true consumer commodities. The plight of Nicola Tesla comes to mind - a genius, yet he died in debt while others leveraged or duped him out of his own inventions. There are certainly companies that lack Apple's unmatched innovation, but will easily copy the iPod concept constellation and flex their respective genius and superior muscle in mass-marketing and consumer delivery. iToldYouSo, iPod.

What does Apple need to do to stop this? Hmmm...that's a tough question - it may not be possible, but here are a few things that immediately come to mind:

- Hire someone who's only focus in life has been successful, high-volume, consumer delivery and mass production. Apple is completely incompetent in this area. It will really take someone who is willing to make reasonable compromises for the sake of the delivery, which, in this case, is the right thing to do. The product and market exist - get out of the design space, deliver the product, and improve along the way, as necessary.

- Make an iPod with a $50 consumer price-point, even if it initially loses money. The hardware profit model is Apple's undoing. At every point in their history when they have experienced the Promethean opportunity to gain escape velocity into a software profit model, they have failed to make the right decisions, which is why the Mac is still a niche market. Cost reduction is a chicken and egg problem and Apple has the ability to make the leap to volume production to achieve the necessary cost reductions to reach profitability, even on a lost-leader iPod-for-the-masses. At $50, everyone could own one, and isn't that the point? What the heck - give them away with an annual iTMS subscription. If Columbia House can give away 12 free CD's with a music club membership, Apple could certainly explore the benefits of a subsidized subscription model or combination low-cost+subscription, since the unit is useless without music to play on it.

- Recapitalize the company for the purposes of producing the low-cost iPod and entire iPod line in an ultra-high-volume production facility (possibly offshore, since that's where the drives and displays are). Apple has, once again, carved a swathe out of the ether and defined a new standard for the technology and media markets - it's time to bet on the pony to win, even if he did used to be lame. Go, Seabiscuit!

- Merge with Apple Records and create a powerful, unified technology and media entity/brand instead of wrangling in repeated, incredibly stupid legal battles. Both companies have wasted insane amounts of money, time, and market opportunity on this process and could both earn substantially more as a combined media entity than they ever would from winning or deflecting a lawsuit, not to mention the amazing event for the entire world of leveraging and building upon the Beatles' legacy (and others' like Taylor, Shankar, etc.) with a unified Apple technology/media brand. Unfortunately, both companies have huge ego problems and this type of unconventional resolution has repeatedly eluded them to their mutual detriment. Now, maybe it's time for both companies to swallow their egos and 'CEO altitude sickness' with BIG MONEY and the future of this space at stake. Neither can do it alone. But who knows...maybe Apple Records is just as myopic as Apple Computer and, in their own respective fit of greed and ignorance, wants to remain stuck in the '60s.

- Assuming unification, dramatically expand into the media space, ramping new artist acquisition and other multi-media content. I'm personally still waiting for AppleTV to appear. Where is ABC-Apple? :) I mean, don't they conceptually go together like kids and teachers? What an amazing, multi-million dollar, educational brand that would be with the right custodianship, not to mention being on-message for Apple.

- Form additional media partnerships, as possible, with OPEN standards. Provide industry wide OEM DRM technology and lose the proprietary crap. It would be nice to see open win, but it's still a long shot, especially with Sony's emerging standard, wma, etc. Say whatever you want to about Microsoft, but they are much better at forming significant, visionary, strategic partnerships than Apple will ever be. They also saw the media writing on the wall a long time ago and MSNBC has been around since '96. Duh, Apple. While you were building fluffy, personal .mac portals, Microsoft was working on becoming a media entity.

- Negotiate to support ALL digital standards on the iPod and with related tools

Anyway...I just thought this would be a short post, but so much for that. Also, commentary in other posts on Apple being 'marginalized,' is, unfortunately, already late. As of today, even with an apparent lead, Apple is already marginalized because of their inherent nature and repeatedly proven inability to execute. What Apple does in the next 6-12 months with iPod will determine its future, but it doesn't look good.

These opportunities come around once or twice a decade, and it would be nice to see Apple ride the wave (no pun intended), just this once, instead of being plowed under by it. If successful, it could only mean great things for Apple, the Mac, and technology users everywhere, who would benefit from a company with both the innovative vision and the newly understood ability to deliver that vision to the consumer from a dominant market position.

ps. Penman - I'm with you!
 
i think apple would rather "open" up to the .wma format than let real incorporate the ipod into their software..no one likes real, and they've been a real pain in the @$$ to microsoft just because they know windows media player, however horrible it may be, is better and more funcional that any version, past, present, AND future, or real player
 
I disagree, Quarkie

Quarkie said:
These opportunities come around once or twice a decade, and it would be nice to see Apple ride the wave (no pun intended), just this once, instead of being plowed under by it.

"[R]id[ing] the wave" is exactly what Apple does not like to do. It goes against their company motto--Think Different.

When Steve Jobs was kicked out of Apple (in the early '90s?, I forget...), Apple used to follow an entirely different path than the one they are currently on. As Steve Jobs said, they were run by salespeople, and were not creative enough--thus, they were failing as a company. He turned that all around, and I would hate for that to happen all over again. Jobs did--and is still doing--miracles for Apple. First the iMac, then the iBook, next the iPod...until now there is an entire array of "i" series products made by Apple. If Apple "ride the wave", the initial results may look good, but in the long run Apple will fall from its glory. I think this is why Jobs decided to decline Real's offering--to protect Apple.

In my opinion, Real is a dead company. Microsoft doesn't like them, and apparently neither does Apple. Their software is horrible, and they manage to make trouble for other companies (Microsoft), which hurts the economy and Microsoft's employees. I think it is good that Apple did not agree to go with Real on this one.

P.S.: Please, don't give me any crap about how I am supporting Microsoft in this post. Apple has Quicktime in their operating system, and Microsoft has Windows Media Player. If Apple were a bigger company and if Real didn't want the iPod incorporated into their software so badly, I'm sure they would be anti-Apple at this moment.
 
I don't think there's anyone who would dispute that Jobs turned around Apple, but I think you misunderstand. A turn-around isn't enough, and none of my comments are about sacrificing creativity for growth.

Unfortunately, what Apple is known for, among other things, is creating new, innovative products and markets and then failing to capitalize on them. Because of Apple's inability to leverage their own ideas (or "ride their own wave") as the space they created goes super-nova as a consumer commodity, they remain trapped in a relatively small niche, which is not only bad for them, but also for anyone who wants to develop products for Apple and expects to be able to grow out of mom-and-popdom.

If Apple doesn't learn to ride the waves that they create, that's fine. They can continue botching their own growth and will remain a niche company, while other companies, more astute and adept at business and market dynamics, determine the developmental fate of the industry and the future directions of the technology that Apple pioneered.

It's actually good that Windows is out there, because all the developers who had to close their doors or sell out the various times that Apple has imploded, cannibalized their own space, or failed to deliver can actually develop for a platform with significant growth. They also don't have to worry that Windows will suddenly tank due to some unexpected market event, which is a much greater, historical risk for Apple.

Then, as an afterthought, maybe those Windows developers might even make and support a relatively small marketshare Mac product, which possibly barely justifies the development costs. For companies besides Apple, the reality is that a lot of Mac development on major cross-platform applications is, in part, subsidized by the Windows space. Mac-only guys either eke out an existence, or fail and are absorbed by larger companies, or just fade into obscurity. Based on Apple's poor overall/historical performance, how do you even go and get funding to start a Mac-only targeted company in Silicon Valley? You'd probably get laughed out of the board room.

On a positive note, the turn-around is over. Apple doesn't need a Messiah, they need someone who understands business models and can put Apple in a dominant market position where their technology can command the attention and growth it deserves.

"Thinking different" and "commanding market growth and direction on the merits of your own products and strategy" are not mutually exclusive. It's time for Apple to take their own slogan to heart and not blow it as they navigate this landmark moment in the history of technology.
 
40GB H140 player by iRiver

ClimbingTheLog said:
...it doesn't support .ogg or FLAC...
My guess is that if those are ever "supported", it'll be with iTunes being able to convert them to AAC files (like WMA now for Windows). I think those who have been crying for this type of support need to just give it up by now. You should go get yourself a 40GB H140 player by iRiver. It supports MP3, WMA, ASF, WAV and OGG music files.

http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iHP-140.aspx

I'm an iPod man myself (having owned the 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 & 40GB models [thanks, CompUSA TAP]), but I must say the new line of players by iRiver look terrific. Just give up on the "ogg dream" and get an iRiver H140. It's just not going to happen with iPod.
 
wide said:
When Steve Jobs was kicked out of Apple (in the early '90s?, I forget...)
It was actually in 1985. Amazing that his board would do that to him after just one year after the birth of the Apple that started it all.
 
JGowan - Don't feel bad for him - he's had plenty of blood money since then, not to mention getting Apple to buy foundering NeXT software for $400M ('96/'97). Oh...and the Jet. The NeXT acquisition press release was good for a surprising chuckle. It just proves that the path of technology growth defies prediction and is riddled with ironic reversals of direction and fortune.

Oddly enough, it's lucky for Apple that they did kick him out, because otherwise Apple probably would have died a long time ago. It was only Jobs' divergent experience and assets relating to Unix, inspiration for a new iMac design, conversion to a unix-platform OS, and extension into multi-media that have given Apple forward momentum again and preserved it for the near-term. The iMac was particularly interesting in that even though everything had changed, Jobs still picked up where he left off in 1985.

So, as bitter an event as that must have been, it was beneficial in an evolutionary context. Had Steve stayed, his adversarial nature would have been wasted on internecine politics instead of on trying to forge a new, visionary path. Leaving Apple was much healthier and more liberating for him and for the computer industry, and has certainly kept Apple history both colorful and interesting. In addition, he has the added ego bounty of being the "I Told You So" Underdog and returning hero. That's really hard to beat, especially if you're profitable.
 
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