Judge Dismisses Lawsuit Over Apple's Location Tracking in iOS

[everything-i]

Or, you know, they bought an Apple device assuming it would not present a privacy concern; otherwise, they might have bought another manufacturer's device.

The reason that this is thrown out is that there is no evidence that this proved a breach of privacy. While location data was cached on the device it was for a legitimate reason and there is no evidence of it being harvested by Apple. There is no actual evidence that privacy has been compromised and thus there is no case to answer.

If you want to see actual gross breach of privacy take a look at what your government is doing

 

[bergert]

Cell-phone location

Um... isn't this required for emergency services by the FCC?

CORRECT: is required by FCC

That's nonsense. With GPS enabled, your device knows where it is.

WRONG: your friendly cell-phone provider also knows your location - no need to have GPS. The cell-tower's GPS location is known, also your distance and angle to the tower. Of course GPS is more accurate - but technically speaking not required to have your position.

 

[kdarling]

What happened was that instead of telling you your location once, and again and again as you drive around, Apple gives you your location, but also the location if WiFi hotspots nearby. So when you drive along, your phone itself knows where it is instead of having to ask Apple again. Some of this information was stored on your device, and that is what someone found.

This. The cache file had several problems, which Apple fixed later.

• It grew without bound, meaning all the info was stored since the day you got the phone. Apple changed that to seven days.
• It was backed up in iTunes, where it was easily accessible. Apple stopped that.
• It was added to, even if Location Sharing was off. Apple changed that.

So some people assumed that Apple is tracking you, not by recording what information your device sends to Apple, but by storing information coming from Apple on your device where Apple cannot actually read it.

True, but that wasn't the basis of the lawsuit. The complaints included the fact that the stored info gave enough info for someone to track your general movements for years, and that the battery was being used to request the data even if not needed.

If this law suit got up, then every Telco across the country would be violating privacy laws, as they use IMEI number tracking to allow signal triangulation when switching cell towers. But it was Apple, wasn't it. The Lawsuit cash cow.

Carrier info isn't stored where someone with your phone or computer can get to it.

Um... isn't this required for emergency services by the FCC?

No, especially for GSM phones.

E911 for GSM phones uses the towers to triangulate the phone. The phone itself has no knowledge or part in doing that, and since GPS is not involved, the location area can be pretty imprecise.

E911 on CDMA phones transmits their raw GPS data to the carrier's locating system, which correlates the data with local cell tower GPS reception data, which fine-tunes the results for local conditions. This gives a more precise location, unless you're somewhere without GPS reception. Then cell tower triangulation has to be used.

(It's not really triangulation, but I'm going to use that word for simplicity here.)

"Oh yes they do. We don't track anyone. The info circulating around is false." -Steve Jobs

Was there any proof that the data left the device?

The problem was that the data was accessible from the iTunes backup. If someone got access to that, they'd be able to figure out what town an abused spouse was living in, where someone had gone for meetings, etc.

Mind you, the cache is a good technical idea. It just needed shortening, encryption, and ... with the changes that Apple later made... the ability to delete the file (by turning off Location Sharing).

 

[kdarling]

Maybe you should take reading comprehension classes. Germany is phasing out iPhones at a government level because their custom encryption software is incompatible with iOS software. Not Apple's fault.

It obviously doesn't help that Apple does not cooperate with third parties to implement secure kernels, and/or that their phones do not have a microSD slot.

The German Chancellor's secure phone is now a Blackberry Z10 with a Secusmart dedicated encryption processor on a plug-in microSD. The government is ordering thousands of these phone combinations at EUR 2500 each, for high officials.

Another secure phone approved by Germany for official use is based on the Galaxy S3, and made by SiMKo3. It uses a custom Android kernel, and costs EUR 1700.

(SiMKo3's custom Android kernel approach is similar to the LG Optimus and Knox based Samsung S4 sold by GD Protected for use by high level US government and military officials to access classified material.)

 

[waldobushman]

Device tracking. How can it be otherwise? Cell devices track, they have to as the phone and the phone company needs to know which tower to use, and which tower is being used so it can transmit information to and from.

I don't get the lawsuit to begin with. It seems to indicate that the petitioners don't know how technology works. Reminds me of those who are freaked out by electromagnetic radiation in the home. They want electricity in their homes but it can't come with EMR.

 

[gnasher729]

WRONG: your friendly cell-phone provider also knows your location - no need to have GPS. The cell-tower's GPS location is known, also your distance and angle to the tower. Of course GPS is more accurate - but technically speaking not required to have your position.

You should take a course in logic.

I said: "With GPS enabled, the device knows where it is."
You said that was wrong, because the device can know where it is without GPS.
But that doesn't make my statement wrong.

Had I said "With GPS disabled, the device doesn't know where it is", that would have been wrong. Which is why I didn't say it.

 

[xtwentyseven]

If you want privacy, ditch your mobile, stay off the internet, rent a property from someone who doesn't ask questions and work for cash in hand - even then, you'd have to pay bills so there would be some trace. Even Richard Stallman hasn't gone quite that far and it seems to me that he's having a fairly odd existence trying to embrace technology but on his own terms not the manufacturers.

It doesn't make it right that our privacy is been eroded daily, but there's not a great deal we can do about it given that we always choose convenience first.

Reminds me of Ron Swanson.

 

[gnasher729]

The problem was that the data was accessible from the iTunes backup. If someone got access to that, they'd be able to figure out what town an abused spouse was living in, where someone had gone for meetings, etc.

So the problem wasn't any tracking, but that the location data left forensic evidence. Many things leave forensic evidence. But how would someone lay their hands on the iTunes backup of the phone of an abused spouse who has moved to an unknown address? How many spouse abusers have the technical means to find out location information, even if they had an iTunes backup?

 

[Terrin]

The reason that this is thrown out is that there is no evidence that this proved a breach of privacy. While location data was cached on the device it was for a legitimate reason and there is no evidence of it being harvested by Apple. There is no actual evidence that privacy has been compromised and thus there is no case to answer.

If you want to see actual gross breach of privacy take a look at what your government is doing

The Plaintiffs also could not show damages. To win a civil lawsuit you have to show you have been damaged.

 

[Oletros]

Ahh, good to see Apple's pet judge doing her work again.

Yes, I also wonder how much Apple pays for these little favors...

It is funny, when she rules something that is "against" Apple she is in Samsung pockets.

When she rules something that is "in favour" of Apple she is in Apple pockets.


She must be earning a lot of cash

 

[JAT]

Yes, I also wonder how much Apple pays for these little favors...

Easy to accuse a judge from another country, isn't it. Why don't you try that in person in your own country? See what happens.

 

[Oletros]

Easy to accuse a judge from another country, isn't it. Why don't you try that in person in your own country? See what happens.

Nothing?

 

[everything-i]

The Plaintiffs also could not show damages. To win a civil lawsuit you have to show you have been damaged.

Exactly, the case wasn't even close to being fit to be heard in court.

 

[9000]

I wanna see what the judge says about that guy who sued Google, Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo, and others, saying that they were in an "Orwellian conspiracy" or something like that.

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You should take a course in logic.

I said: "With GPS enabled, the device knows where it is."
You said that was wrong, because the device can know where it is without GPS.
But that doesn't make my statement wrong.

Had I said "With GPS disabled, the device doesn't know where it is", that would have been wrong. Which is why I didn't say it.

Or "The device knows where it is if and only if GPS is enabled."
It bugs me so much that people don't understand that difference between IF and IFF.

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Maybe you should take reading comprehension classes. Germany is phasing out iPhones at a government level because their custom encryption software is incompatible with iOS software. Not Apple's fault.

It is Apple's fault because installing that software would require a jailbreak since Apple has walled the device off.

 

[Rajani Isa]

Of course, there are people who refuse to tell a merchant their home address because they are concerned about privacy, and then they wonder why the merchant refuses to deliver to their home…

The scary thing is that is true.

I've actually dealt with people like this trying to order pizza for delivery.

Or for pickup, who then freak out when I ask if the XXX-XXXX is the number to use because they've apparently never heard of caller ID.

WRONG: your friendly cell-phone provider also knows your location - no need to have GPS. The cell-tower's GPS location is known, also your distance and angle to the tower. Of course GPS is more accurate - but technically speaking not required to have your position.

Of course many phones now days combine the two - using cell towers to localize before pinpointing with GPS to make it quicker/more efficient.

 

[Rajani Isa]

It is Apple's fault because installing that software would require a jailbreak since Apple has walled the device off.

Odd that other governments and agencies can apparently use iPhones to meet their security needs without jail breaking.

Seems the big issue here is a hardware issue, actually. Jail breaking can't necessarily fix that.

 

[Kr00]

Carrier info isn't stored where someone with your phone or computer can get to it.

How do you know for sure it isn't? Forensic scientists have been able to track, historically, the last movements of a victim/suspect.

It must so reassuring to know everything and then to enlighten us all with your superior intellect. One wonders why you troll Apple forums like this and AI to sprout your obvious dislike for Apple? I'd think you'd stick to forums that held your interests.

You and your kind have ruined one Apple forum, and now you can't help yourself to spread the virus here. Thanks. Can you tell me what Apple forums you DON'T visit, so I can have refuge from your diatribe?

Thanks.

 

[Jimmy James]

Yes, I also wonder how much Apple pays for these little favors...

Favors? You think the plaintiff should have been successful?

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and this is why i dont like cloud storage i like my data being local

You don't like cloud storage because of location tracking?

 

[kdarling]

So the problem wasn't any tracking, but that the location data left forensic evidence. Many things leave forensic evidence. But how would someone lay their hands on the iTunes backup of the phone of an abused spouse who has moved to an unknown address? How many spouse abusers have the technical means to find out location information, even if they had an iTunes backup?

There were several easy to use viewers plastered all over the news for looking at the location info from an iTunes backup. And anyone can do a backup if they get hold of a device for a while. Their output looked like:



There are all sorts of examples where you might not want this data stored for a long time, or at all. You might be an undercover informant. You might be cheating on your spouse. And even innocent people often would not want police forensics to be able to nail down a lot of their movements.

Again, though, I think Koh was right to dismiss the lawsuit, if for no other reason than that they were mostly complaining about a software bug that later got fixed.

Odd that other governments and agencies can apparently use iPhones to meet their security needs without jail breaking.

The situation with the German Chancellor is quite different from the far weaker approval that many phones get for accessing non-classified networks.

 

[portishead]

Yes, I also wonder how much Apple pays for these little favors...

Ahh, good to see Apple's pet judge doing her work again.

I hope you're at least getting paid to write useless comments.

 

[Swift]

"Oh yes they do. We don't track anyone. The info circulating around is false." -Steve Jobs

Was there any proof that the data left the device?

Now we know it was development of the "Frequent Locations" feature.

It was for two things: one, when you have the GPS chip off or inoperable (under a roof, for instance), you needed a cache of where you were relative to wifi, so when you're indoors, location renders something close to the truth. I presume, working from that data globally, you can figure out a whole bunch of things that people will want. But its mistake was, it should have been encrypted at all times.

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How do you know for sure it isn't? Forensic scientists have been able to track, historically, the last movements of a victim/suspect.

It must so reassuring to know everything and then to enlighten us all with your superior intellect. One wonders why you troll Apple forums like this and AI to sprout your obvious dislike for Apple? I'd think you'd stick to forums that held your interests.

You and your kind have ruined one Apple forum, and now you can't help yourself to spread the virus here. Thanks. Can you tell me what Apple forums you DON'T visit, so I can have refuge from your diatribe?

Thanks.

I suppose, in a criminal case, that Apple would be subpoenaed for this data. They would give it, and why not? If it's the victim's or the suspect's iPhone, a record of location might be crucial in proving guilt or innocence.

 

[gnasher729]

There were several easy to use viewers plastered all over the news for looking at the location info from an iTunes backup. And anyone can do a backup if they get hold of a device for a while.

1. You can't get hold of my iPhone.
2. You can't get hold of my iTunes backup.
3. You can't read the data on any iPhone with passcode.

And most importantly:

If you could, there would be much more important things to worry about.

I suppose, in a criminal case, that Apple would be subpoenaed for this data. They would give it, and why not? If it's the victim's or the suspect's iPhone, a record of location might be crucial in proving guilt or innocence.

Since Apple never stored the location data on Apple's computers, trying to subpoena Apple would be an absolute failure.

 

[CFreymarc]

On a side note, how does she wind up on all these cases involving Apple? She seems to be a pretty fair judge but if she weren't I could completely see how it could negatively impact the company.

Federal Judge assignment per case is very political. There are consultants, mostly retired judges, that influence what judge gets on what case. It is a fascinating read with several books published on it over the year.

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How do you know for sure it isn't? Forensic scientists have been able to track, historically, the last movements of a victim/suspect.

It must so reassuring to know everything and then to enlighten us all with your superior intellect. One wonders why you troll Apple forums like this and AI to sprout your obvious dislike for Apple? I'd think you'd stick to forums that held your interests.

You and your kind have ruined one Apple forum, and now you can't help yourself to spread the virus here. Thanks. Can you tell me what Apple forums you DON'T visit, so I can have refuge from your diatribe?

Thanks.

My take on this forum, the Apple haters are taken less seriously and if anything, are amusing as a screaming and dung throwing monkey at a local zoo. That is, initially annoying but when you see their habits and can predict their actions, very amusing.

 

[JAT]

Nothing?

His attitude? He'd be in contempt in 5 minutes here. IDK about Germany, I guess.

 

[CFreymarc]

Privacy is already a myth.

The minute you enabled locations settings, GPS on your device and signed in to iCloud (or similar), you lost all of your privacy.

My take on this suite is the plaintiff chose the wrong defendant.

If anyone is acting as Big Brother in the infrastructure, it is the wireless carriers. Apple and other equipment vendors have demonstrated that you can get a very good GPS fix on a mobile phone by triangulating connection with connected cell towers and taking into account the known local attenuation profiles.

While Apple's equipment and network may not be sending out location data, the carrier equipment in the local telco Central Offices operating these cell towers can log a whole cell phone operation GPS path. These GPS points come about when a cell phone connects with a nearby tower stating it is available for wireless services.

This is how police and other law enforcement agencies access location of know suspects via court orders. Most carriers have full time offices just to handle law enforcement real-time cell phone location requests. As far as NSA and other three letter types, love to see the Attorney General letters to these telcos stating how often they access location data history.