Judge in Apple v. Epic Case Sides With Apple on Fortnite and Epic on Unreal Engine [Updated]

[Dremmel]

" Apple had argued that it routinely terminates agreements for all linked developer accounts, which it will not be able to do in this case. " ???

Maybe the app store needs a 3rd party to oversee that it is run fairly.

Epic don't let all your Fortnite users down. Pay the 30% and wait until this thing goes to trial.

 

[playtech1]

Looking at the transcript it feels like the judge ruled on the basis that there was a high risk of irreparable harm caused by Apple pulling the Unreal dev account (to Epic and the devs using Unreal), whereas with the Fortnite ban she could not see that wider irreparable harm, it's limited to Epic, of its own making, with a smaller impact. All seems pretty sensible really.

Although again I question why Apple didn't take the high road on Unreal Engine, as it needs to show itself as a paragon of virtue to help its prospects against charges of unfair practices.

Interesting the judge thinks arguments will centre on where between zero and 30% the appropriate fee to Apple will be. That's not quite where Epic want to take things, although I'm sure they would be happy enough if the payment fee was cut to the of typical payment providers (i.e. single digit %).

 

[Abazigal]

Who are you to call any kids stupid, just because their interests differs to yours. Look at the mirror, before calling anybody stupid. Defending a company with abusive and vengeful behaviors does not make you intellectual either.

I don’t think he was doing that. He’s basically point out the difference between an ongoing subscription and IAPs.

With a subscription, you only need to do it once. If Netflix can get you to go to their website and sign up once, they will get to keep 100% of your money for as long as you stay subscribed to their service. That’s why it’s worth them not offering the ability to subscribe inside the app, and causing the user a little bit of inconvenience by making them visit an external website.

IAPs tend to be more spontaneous. You see something, you want it right away, and so you buy it on the spur of the moment. Force the user to leave the app and visit a separate website breaks the momentum of the experience (especially if you want to buy extra lives to continue gaming), and may cause the user to rethink his decision and ultimately not go through with his purchase.

Now imagine this happening every single time user wants to buy something, and that’s a lot of potential lost revenue. 70% of a lot of money is still better than 100% of nothing.

That’s why Netflix and Epic each do what they do, because that’s what maximises revenue for them in the long run.

 

[daniesy]

Every Apple fanboy stands blindingly in line, hating on Epic. Yet you guys fail to realise that if Epic succeeds, consumers and developers will be the ones who'll benefit from it. A lower apple purchase tax means more great apps from more talented people and less IAP.

 

[Brian Y]

Man threads like these really show up how biased the majority of MR readers are.

 

[threesixty360]

Not only epic but Apple as well. „THE APP STORE WAS NEARLY 40 PERCENT OF APPLE’S TOTAL SERVICE REVENUE IN 2019“
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/17/...-app-store-services-business-model-epic-games

yes, but fortnite is one game
having said that, if they did stop all unreal engines games then maybe thats a bit of money for apple.

But they are a 2 trillion dollar company, I think it peanuts to them really.

 

[gnipgnop]

Epic's lawyer's argued that asking Epic to capitulate and go back to the status quo is akin to "asking us to require consumers to pay more than they should in a competitive environment" and that it had antitrust implications.

The above quote is such a huge lie from Epic. When a new console game is released, the price in the digital store on the console is going to be the same as buying a physical copy at a store. That's despite the fact that developers/publishers get a 70% cut on digital and a much lower 45% cut in a brick/mortar store. If what Epic was claiming about the App Store were true, and that developer/publishers would lower the price without Apple's 30% cut, why aren't they already doing that with console games? Shouldn't they already be 25% cheaper to buy on the console's digital store?

 

[derekamoss]

it’s not going to be a great experience. my ps4 remote play barely plays fine

xCloud has been pretty awesome and a great experience to me on my android. Don't see why it would be any different on an iPad and way better than ps remote play.

 

[bobmans]

Wait, I thought only Amazon was getting the 15% treat?

No, Apple changed the rules so every streaming app can be eligible.
If you launch a streaming service tomorrow and it has these things: "integration with the Apple TV app, AirPlay 2 support, tvOS app, universal search, Siri support and, where applicable, single or zero sign-on", then even your streaming service is eligible for a 15% cut instead of a 30% cut and can even use your own payment processing system.
Some streaming services like Netflix just haven't acted on it because even 15% is too much for them.

 

[derekamoss]

Why Epic won't make a website for buying something for the players? Netflix has a website for managing your account and payment.

Well they could but no one would know about it or how to get there because Apple says you cant link even mention an outside subscription website because Apple want's their 30% no matter what.

 

[gnipgnop]

Well they could but no one would know about it or how to get there because Apple says you cant link even mention an outside subscription website because Apple want's their 30% no matter what.

That's true of pretty much any digital store that has 3rd party sellers...Amazon, Walmart Etsy, EBay etc. They all have contracts that prevent sellers from circumventing the store by providing links to outside sites etc.

 

[patent10021]

This will continue long after Wuhan Virus is corralled.

 

[portland_bill]

Every Apple fanboy stands blindingly in line, hating on Epic. Yet you guys fail to realise that if Epic succeeds, consumers and developers will be the ones who'll benefit from it. A lower apple purchase tax means more great apps from more talented people and less IAP.

they are not even remotely conditional in their support so they are either getting free stuff from Apple or think they will get free stuff from Apple

either way you cannot really take them very seriously (these Epic threads have been very useful for building up an ignore list!)

 

[derekamoss]

That's true of pretty much any digital store that has 3rd party sellers...Amazon, Walmart Etsy, EBay etc. They all have contracts that prevent sellers from circumventing the store by providing links to outside sites etc.

Those are all physical products mostly being bought, which make sense and that's more so to keep consumers getting screwed by shady third parties. Plus, if they don't agree with Amazon, walmart etc, they are allowed to create their own storefront on the internet because its open and not a closed wall. Apple doesnt allow free competition at all

 

[ChristianVirtual]

Good judgment ... would be unfair to many 3rd party developer to impact the engine. But fair enough to ensure Epic games follow the rules as we all have. That said:30% is lots, less would be better or a tiered system.

 

[TiggrToo]

Fortinet is still able to distrubte software through Andriod just not through Google play store. For Apple they are unable to distrubute at all. It’s quite different cases.

You totally miss the point. Android already has alternate app stores. Yet Epic are suing Google for the same reasons they’re suing Apple.

This shows that the ultimate aim is not for alternate app stores, but to allow them to grab every last cent from Fortnite players.

Something that’s now taken a real tumble now that Apple have been given the OK to disable their Fortnite based account.

 

[Manzanito]

Every Apple fanboy stands blindingly in line, hating on Epic. Yet you guys fail to realise that if Epic succeeds, consumers and developers will be the ones who'll benefit from it. A lower apple purchase tax means more great apps from more talented people and less IAP.

Those are two very wealthy companies at each other throats, the consumers won’t benefit at all, no matter what the outcome is.

 

[TiggrToo]

Every Apple fanboy stands blindingly in line, hating on Epic. Yet you guys fail to realise that if Epic succeeds, consumers and developers will be the ones who'll benefit from it. A lower apple purchase tax means more great apps from more talented people and less IAP.

There is zero proof that such an outcome would happen. That’s the sort of fallacy y’all tell each other as you try to support Epic.

 

[D4vidrim]

If making purchase inside the iOS app requires paying 30% cut to Apple, is Amazon paying Apple that 30% fee when people buying stuff thru the app?

It's not 30% on everything.
It's 30% on the price of the app
It's 30% on in-app purchases about digital services, such as the one Epic sells
It's 15% on subscriptions, after the first year, for example with Spotify music service
It's 0% on services (no digital) and on real products

So, to answer your question, Amazon doesn't pay the 30%, because they sell real products. It would be 30% if they sold digital books, but Amazon doesn't sell digital books on the iPhone.

The 30% on digital service is a fee that has to be paid, cause if it wasn't there every developer would put its app for free on the store (so that they don't have to pay Apple), then they would force the user to pay through in-app purchase. This way Apple would not take any money at all.

 

[derekamoss]

I'm not sure if anyone has ever noted this, but when Epic added their in game purchase option the prices was $7.99, while the price through Apple was $9.99. However, if you take off the 30% cut that Apple takes off of a $9.99 purchase, you get $7.69, which means Epic was charging people $0.30 more than they would have received if the purchase went through Apple. It's a minor thing, but it's a bit of a fail on their part if they want to argue they are doing this on principle.

The judge probably has the right of it...punishing everyone who depends on the Unreal engine is not fair to everyone else, but Epic deserves what they are getting because they made their bed. Apple needs to support the App Store and iOS infrastructure that all these apps depend on, so the developers should be paying something to be on the platform (just like they do with all the other ones). Whether it's 30% or some other number is a separate question, but Epic's idea that they can live off of Apple without supporting the infrastructure they are using to make their money sure doesn't seem like anything but pure greed to me. It would be far better if they were honestly negotiating for a different pay structure, or that features come with a higher charge...say, if you don't use in app purchasing then you lose the support for all the things that go with it but also don't have to pay Apple x% for that support. Just getting it all for free makes no business sense for Apple.

Not really, Epic could have continued to charge 9.99 easily in the in app purchase to recoup lost income for apples 30%. If Apple had allowed them to have their own payment scheme in game and charged 9.99 no one would have really complained. They also could have easily charged 12.99 on ios to recoup costs. The people buying in app currency are going to pay whatever the cost is. Now if it was a one time charge for the game and you could buy it for 9.99 every where other than apple where they charged 12.99 to recoup cost, people would freak. Technically they are taking a loss because people still would have bought in game currency for 9.99 anyways

 

[Apple Mac Daz]

Ino Epic is huge but how do other smaller developers get away with external payment options in there games that are still in the App Store

 

[Appleman3546]

It seems that while Fortnite may lose, epic international may win

 

[Glideslope]

yes, but fortnite is one game
having said that, if they did stop all unreal engines games then maybe thats a bit of money for apple.

But they are a 2 trillion dollar company, I think it peanuts to them really.

Correct, and of the 35-40% of revenue in 2019 in the App Store what was the percent attributed to "Games." This will be a lengthy battle, but Apple will prevail. Epic shot the entire load in the first round expecting others to rally with them.

Now they see they are on their own.

 

[ftaok]

Every Apple fanboy stands blindingly in line, hating on Epic. Yet you guys fail to realise that if Epic succeeds, consumers and developers will be the ones who'll benefit from it. A lower apple purchase tax means more great apps from more talented people and less IAP.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I'm more of the opinion that a lower "Apple Tax" would result in more IAP from these app developers.

Apple has always shown a disdain for IAP in games. I personally hate IAP for games and would rather pay the $10 to 20 bucks for a game and play it to the end, but games today aren't built like that anymore. They're all about microtransactions.

If app developers were able to keep more money from the IAP transactions, I would imagine that we would see more and more IAP in games.

 

[TiggrToo]

It seems that while Fortnite may lose, epic international may win

How so? There’s more to this than meets the eye. For example there’s Unity: their recent pre IPO S1 filing states that they have over half the PC, Console AND mobile market.

Does this mean that Unity will become the new Unreal? Not in the slightest - however it does show that Unreal have no guarantee that they’ll be top dog forever and, with this hearing there’s going to be more than one dev shop looking and debating whether to go Unreal or Unity for their next project...

The long term future of the engine as now been called into doubt by Epic’s move here; not sure what Sweeney’s strategy is with all this but a long protracted court case only hurts them. Apple will continue just fine while this drags on - they can quite easily cope without Fortnite, and they’ve demonstrated time after time that they have a Teflon shield that prevents bad press from sticking on them. Even the mainstream press have given up reporting on the story - and that’s the world that the vast majority of Apple users exist in.

Epic however have created a major problem for themselves - the next season of Fortnite will not be available on either Google or Apple devices unless they perform an embarrassing turn around. And they’re going to have to fight this case for years now.

TL;DR: Epic may have hastened it’s own demise.