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Justice Department Calls Apple's Privacy Case Stance a 'Marketing Strategy'
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I read through the DOJ's Motion to Compel filed today. So if Apple would be forced to create software to comply with the Court Order and were allowed to keep the new software in-house...and then be allowed to destroy it after opening the phone for the FBI to use their brute force attack on...am I wrong that the phone (which wouldn't belong to Apple) would go back to the owner or the FBI for their evidence and could then be broken into to find out what Apple did to disable it? I don't see how Apple would be permitted to wipe the phone or destroy it since it's not their property.
"Apple may maintain custody of the software, destroy it after its purpose under the order has been served, refuse to disseminate it outside of Apple and make clear to the world that it does not apply to other devices or users without lawful court orders," the Justice Department told Judge Sheri Pym. "No one outside Apple would have access to the software required by the order unless Apple itself chose to share it."
"Apple may maintain custody of the software, destroy it after its purpose under the order has been served, refuse to disseminate it outside of Apple and make clear to the world that it does not apply to other devices or users without lawful court orders," the Justice Department told Judge Sheri Pym. "No one outside Apple would have access to the software required by the order unless Apple itself chose to share it."
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They probably only just figured out a way to secure users privacy and with their ambitions for turning the phone into a wallet, they had no choice but to create a system secure enough for financial transactions.
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So what you're saying is the fbi is perfectly capable of doing its own dirty work.
Exactly, my line of thinking!!! You have to toe the line of government eventually. Looks like TC is trying to milk the maximum publicity and clever by half marketing strategy! Government knows how to get your back!
The United States Justice Department today asked a federal judge to compel Apple to comply with the court's original order that would force the company to help the FBI hack into the iPhone of San Bernardino shooter Syed Farook. In the filing, shared by The New York Times, the DOJ calls Apple's refusal to help "a marketing strategy" that "appears to be based on its concern for its business model."
The DOJ bases this assertion on Apple's past cooperation, when it provided data from devices that ran earlier versions of iOS when ordered to do so via search warrant. Prior to iOS 8, Apple had the tools to extract data from locked iOS devices. With the release of iOS 8, Apple stopped storing encryption keys for devices, making it impossible for the company to access data on devices running iOS 8 or later.The government has demanded Apple create a tool that would allow the FBI to more easily hack into Farook's iPhone 5c through brute forcing the passcode, something that's quite different than the orders that Apple has complied with on pre-iOS 7 devices. Apple has been asked to develop a new version of iOS software that would do the following:
- Eliminate the auto-erase function that wipes an iPhone if the wrong passcode is entered 10 times.
- Eliminate the delay that locks the FBI out of the iPhone if the wrong passcode is entered too many times in a row.
- Implement a method that would allow the FBI to electronically enter a passcode using software.
Apple has publicly stated its intention to oppose the order, saying it sets a "dangerous precedent," a statement echoed by several technology companies that have come out in support of Apple. Apple believes that fulfilling the "chilling" request will lead to similar unlocking requests in the future or a general demand to weaken encryption on electronic devices.
Following an extension granted yesterday, Apple still has several days to formulate an official response to the court's demands. Apple is expected to argue that the order goes beyond the powers granted to the government by the All Writs Act, a key law that's being used in the case.
Note: Due to the political nature of the discussion regarding this topic, the discussion thread is located in our Politics, Religion, Social Issues forum. All forum members and site visitors are welcome to read and follow the thread, but posting is limited to forum members with at least 100 posts.
Article Link: Justice Department Calls Apple's Privacy Case Stance a 'Marketing Strategy'
I thought the same thing. Posturing. Like Tim's stance on human rights, as he deals with and sells in countries with deplorable human rights abuses.
Not a judge, a magistrate. And in THIS country, you get a whole process you can exercise up to the SCOTUS in order to be sure. You don't throw people in jail here for deciding to appeal a case, Fuhrer.
I'm not sure what the controversy is here. Does the DOJ think it stumbled onto a clever talking point? Apple has been very clear it's "no backdoors" policy is a selling point and marketing strategy. Its been featured during recent Apple media events and compared to Android.
But what isn't really being discussed here is that Apple has fully complied with warrants for non-encrypted data on it's iCloud servers. It's not like Apple is intentionally protecting criminals and terrorists. It's protecting it's business model, which is, in part, user privacy when the user makes such efforts as to secure his or her data -- all users.
Unfortunately, not all iOS users are decent humans and there info is protected too. IF this was an exigent circumstate -- a "24" type situation where life or death was imminent and foreseeable maybe their would be a different response from Apple. But we are months out from the shooting. FBI should have acted faster if they thought there was credible info on the phone. By now, if there is info on the phone its likely very stale.
But what isn't really being discussed here is that Apple has fully complied with warrants for non-encrypted data on it's iCloud servers. It's not like Apple is intentionally protecting criminals and terrorists. It's protecting it's business model, which is, in part, user privacy when the user makes such efforts as to secure his or her data -- all users.
Unfortunately, not all iOS users are decent humans and there info is protected too. IF this was an exigent circumstate -- a "24" type situation where life or death was imminent and foreseeable maybe their would be a different response from Apple. But we are months out from the shooting. FBI should have acted faster if they thought there was credible info on the phone. By now, if there is info on the phone its likely very stale.
So, you don't consider the right to appeal to be a part of your "country of laws"
Ha! Now that's rich!
if americans keep saying it, it MUST be true!
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and then the next time they want to do this, they go back to apple, and make them do it again. it sets a bad precedent. apple will have a department of people doing nothing but "helping" the government intrude on people's privacy? no, they'll wait until the media circus dies down, and then take a copy of the software, which then will be spread everywhere, and you'll have 2 bit street cops searching black kids iphones after a "stop and frisk".
Totally spot on. Ignore the yanks, they are clutching their handbags about this.
The United States Justice Department today asked a federal judge to compel Apple to comply with the court's original order that would force the company to help the FBI hack into the iPhone of San Bernardino shooter Syed Farook. In the filing, shared by The New York Times, the DOJ calls Apple's refusal to help "a marketing strategy" that "appears to be based on its concern for its business model."
The DOJ bases this assertion on Apple's past cooperation, when it provided data from devices that ran earlier versions of iOS when ordered to do so via search warrant. Prior to iOS 8, Apple had the tools to extract data from locked iOS devices. With the release of iOS 8, Apple stopped storing encryption keys for devices, making it impossible for the company to access data on devices running iOS 8 or later.The government has demanded Apple create a tool that would allow the FBI to more easily hack into Farook's iPhone 5c through brute forcing the passcode, something that's quite different than the orders that Apple has complied with on pre-iOS 7 devices. Apple has been asked to develop a new version of iOS software that would do the following:
- Eliminate the auto-erase function that wipes an iPhone if the wrong passcode is entered 10 times.
- Eliminate the delay that locks the FBI out of the iPhone if the wrong passcode is entered too many times in a row.
- Implement a method that would allow the FBI to electronically enter a passcode using software.
Apple has publicly stated its intention to oppose the order, saying it sets a "dangerous precedent," a statement echoed by several technology companies that have come out in support of Apple. Apple believes that fulfilling the "chilling" request will lead to similar unlocking requests in the future or a general demand to weaken encryption on electronic devices.
Following an extension granted yesterday, Apple still has several days to formulate an official response to the court's demands. Apple is expected to argue that the order goes beyond the powers granted to the government by the All Writs Act, a key law that's being used in the case.
Note: Due to the political nature of the discussion regarding this topic, the discussion thread is located in our Politics, Religion, Social Issues forum. All forum members and site visitors are welcome to read and follow the thread, but posting is limited to forum members with at least 100 posts.
Article Link: Justice Department Calls Apple's Privacy Case Stance a 'Marketing Strategy'
Government(s), you mean. China will be making Apple unlock the iPhones of people suspected of spying for the US. And Russia's government will require Apple to selectively spy on key individuals anywhere in the world. Probably not you or me. Just important people.
Suddenly, Apple's involved in world politics, with some players abroad thinking nothing of kidnapping to get a phone decripted.
Imagine what type of folk will get a hold of this "special OS" after it gets into the hands of governments who like bribes like Russia and China? Forget about not trusting them.
I love this!
What many never realize, is who decides what is right or wrong, and are they going to be the same today and tomorrow.
So, if they made Apple complied, what is next? Force Blackberry, which is a CANADIAN company to follow US court orders?
Samsung, Korean company? Lenovo, China company?
This is out of control...
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Samsung, Korean company? Lenovo, China company?
This is out of control...
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Kind of like the plot from V for Vendetta?The U.K. Government is also trying to ban encryption.
I never understood why Government want access our data in the first place. It seems that the FBI has no way to chase after bad guys without going after their phone.
I absolutely support Apple and all other tech company opposing government abusing.
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it isn't like US government is doing any better than Chinese government. Do you really think US government does not spying citizens from other country? Do you really think US government does not hack into other countries' network? Before you guys insult China or Russia, clean your own crap.
I absolutely support Apple and all other tech company opposing government abusing.
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it isn't like US government is doing any better than Chinese government. Do you really think US government does not spying citizens from other country? Do you really think US government does not hack into other countries' network? Before you guys insult China or Russia, clean your own crap.
Me too. Boycott all Trump products. I think as Democrats, that's probably already happening on the left.
If the threat relied on it "being known" what the FBI is requesting of Apple, or that it was possible/had been done, the battle has already been lost.
It's not a special "algorithm or technique"; in fact, it's really rather simple. Apple modifies the source code (which only they have) to bypass software security limitations (maximum number of guesses, rate at which guesses can be guessed, etc.), allowing the FBI to crack the encryption using brute force (assuming of course it's not an alpha-numeric password, which would likely take too long to brute force).
There is no way for hackers to "research and develop" this technique until they get it, unless they have access to the firmware source code (and Apple's private signing key). Apple complying with the FBI's request doesn't make them any closer to getting access to either.
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I'm not 100% sure on this as I'm not a computer security expert, but from what I understand, your data is encrypted with a combination of the unique hardware key of the device, and your passcode. Thus, you can't simply extract the data from the device and brute force it, as you would be missing the hardware key.
nuclear power poses to create a source of energy that is great for the world..... and like the iphone, if you pervert and twist science it can become a force of destruction and evil.
It's a tough stance, but I think Apple is making the right one. Far worse can be done than good.
And of course, now we learn the FBI jacked this up themselves by tinkering BEFORE asking for help by changing the password for the account. (idiots). Apple had been working to help them in ways they could but they ruined everything. Good job FBI!
The only thing with this particular case.... so the phone was property of the employer, meaning so is all it's data. In this instance, the device isn't the property of the person using it. I'm surprised there isn't a method when deploying iPhones to employees for an employer to unlock a device. (Employee is investigated for fraud, fired, quits, etc.)
It's a tough stance, but I think Apple is making the right one. Far worse can be done than good.
And of course, now we learn the FBI jacked this up themselves by tinkering BEFORE asking for help by changing the password for the account. (idiots). Apple had been working to help them in ways they could but they ruined everything. Good job FBI!
The only thing with this particular case.... so the phone was property of the employer, meaning so is all it's data. In this instance, the device isn't the property of the person using it. I'm surprised there isn't a method when deploying iPhones to employees for an employer to unlock a device. (Employee is investigated for fraud, fired, quits, etc.)
If you are going to draw a line in the sand, this is the line Apple must draw and not cross. Let's say Apple *can* provide what the FBI is looking for. The FBI gets it, and is happy. Imagine every hacker in the world working on finding an exploit to do the same? And even if Apple created a special OS, or tool for just this one case, which it would never be limited to one, as the FBI would come calling weekly. But if Apple did create this, once that app is *somewhere* installed on something, can you ever be 100% sure that it won't get out? Even having something that dangerous on Apple's internal networks, etc. That's like building bomb the size of a milk carton that can destroy the world. You just build it to see if you can build it, but you never intend on using it to destroy the world. Then boom. Once the cat is out of the bag, I'm not convinced that the source, or parts of the app, or the "idea" or exploits Apple used won't get out too.
For me, my privacy and security are worth this fight. And how stupid to call Apple unpatriotic when they are preserving the privacy of all their users. Privacy, you can't get more patriotic than that. The government may want to know what and when I'm doing at all times, but let them eat cake and figure it out on their own. I will not help them and I would certainly hope Apple doesn't help them.
You don't end racism by taking away freedom of speech just as you don't end terrorism by taking away the privacy rights of every Apple user.
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EDIT: Here is an email I sent to Tim.
Tim- I'm so glad that you have made Apple's feelings known (http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/), and I support Apple 100%. Any person with a conscience cannot stand to see the loss of any life, let alone mass casualties in a terrorist attack. But living in fear and stripping away basic civil rights, the right to privacy in this case, in order to "protect" the general public is not a country I would want to live in. If this were North Korea, it would be expected. But not from the greatest country on the planet.
As horrible as it sounds, the loss of one life or one thousand-- it's just not enough to justify society as a whole giving up their rights to privacy. Many world leaders in the 20th century alone thought they could make a better world by removing every sort of freedom by "protecting" it's citizenry. Some of the most violent countries in the world today are countries where people have the least freedoms, so we already know this model does not work.
One shall not abridge the rights of the many to protect the few. DO NOT give up this fight! This battle isn't about the thinness of a phone, or the resolution of a display. This is a battle, literally, for the future freedoms of our republic.
This is a fight you must see to victory.
Bryan
For me, my privacy and security are worth this fight. And how stupid to call Apple unpatriotic when they are preserving the privacy of all their users. Privacy, you can't get more patriotic than that. The government may want to know what and when I'm doing at all times, but let them eat cake and figure it out on their own. I will not help them and I would certainly hope Apple doesn't help them.
You don't end racism by taking away freedom of speech just as you don't end terrorism by taking away the privacy rights of every Apple user.
================================
EDIT: Here is an email I sent to Tim.
Tim- I'm so glad that you have made Apple's feelings known (http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/), and I support Apple 100%. Any person with a conscience cannot stand to see the loss of any life, let alone mass casualties in a terrorist attack. But living in fear and stripping away basic civil rights, the right to privacy in this case, in order to "protect" the general public is not a country I would want to live in. If this were North Korea, it would be expected. But not from the greatest country on the planet.
As horrible as it sounds, the loss of one life or one thousand-- it's just not enough to justify society as a whole giving up their rights to privacy. Many world leaders in the 20th century alone thought they could make a better world by removing every sort of freedom by "protecting" it's citizenry. Some of the most violent countries in the world today are countries where people have the least freedoms, so we already know this model does not work.
One shall not abridge the rights of the many to protect the few. DO NOT give up this fight! This battle isn't about the thinness of a phone, or the resolution of a display. This is a battle, literally, for the future freedoms of our republic.
This is a fight you must see to victory.
Bryan
This is hilarious although I have a feeling the iPhone 7 sales will be earth shattering. All this mess w/ the government shines light on Apples privacy stance & protecting the consumers data. There will be MANY more supporters this year