Kaspersky Lab Files Antitrust Complaint Against Apple Over App Store Policy

[gnipgnop]

The timing of Apple removing the app, at the same time they introduced similar functionality, totally makes Kaspersky's case. Had they prohibited it from the beginning, there wouldn't be much there. I think Apple loses this one.

IMO, the bigger issue would be whether or not the App Store rule cited by Apple was present during the time Kaspersky's app was in the store.

 

[LovingTeddy]

Which is why I say, the safest hands are still Apple’s own. Let Apple be the one to handle matters like security and permissions, which then effectively removes the second-guessing from the equation.

No need to debate about whether Kaspersky is a legitimate antivirus company, or a Russian Spy (or maybe both!), when it can’t be in a position where either concern would matter.

Let us play a senario:

There are two powerful corporations that has unlimited money and power. Each of them buy half of all stores and plazas in the country available. You have no choice but to go one of two.

One the coportation get to setup store and deciating the terms and conditions for items in their store and they can take down whatever they feel like to if it feels to. This corporation will go all the way to prevent other store setup in its own plaza. How would you feel about that.

Why would you think the fastest hands are still in Apple’s own. It is like to say, that Apple can do whatever they want and call it for the safety of their own customers. How are we allow one corporation have such control? I never understand the mentality behind this. In one hand, we allow corporations (like Apple) decided on our behalf and in other hand we cries about government intervention. This is to me very contradictory.

 

[manu chao]

What you all say sounds valid, but then why did Apple permit this app to be sold until they finally built the same or similar functionality into iOS?

Apple has changed and tightened rules in areas where the newly banned functionality was not added by Apple themselves, for example in the area of how websites and apps can track you.

But Apple might have also tolerated such apps because it did see them providing a legitimate service but with this service now provided by the OS itself it can curtail what third-party apps are allowed to do on iOS without depriving users of that functionality.

Yes, one see this as an unfriendly move by Apple but it is not that Apple is making any more money by banning this app (it rather looses its 30%) which Spotify can argue in their case.

 

[pratikindia]

Apple should be fined heavily for it's anti competitive actions.

 

[0947347]

A Russian company that focuses on uncovering U.S. espionage while ignoring Russian espionage. Sounds like a state-run company, no? Kind of like how WikiLeaks only seemed to have leaks from the U.S. or western countries?

Not really, since Russian and even Chinese government openly say what they censor and what they want access to, maybe not all but they do say a lot. The Linkdin comes to mind. Russian government said, no Linkdin if the Russian citizen’s data are kept on US servers. Also various chat apps have been asked by the government to handover the data.

Do you think tha Wikileaks are pro Russian, anti western? To be honest I don’t know much about Wikileaks as I get my independent news elsewhere. You don’t need to be an expert to see that civilians in Syria have a white phosphorus bombs thrown on them by western “saviours” or when the UK ordered chlorine arrives in Syria, suddenly Syrian government is accused of using chemical weapons on their citizens and when Russia asks for independent investigation, USA, France and UK bomb the “suspected” place without any approval. Doesn’t it smell fishy to you at all?

Yes, these may be some, maybe, isolated cases, but when looking in the context with history (false accusations of Vietnam that started war) inhuman usage of Agent Orange, ... list goes on.

Anyway, this is a software thread. I have never used Kaspersky and since on Mac I have never used antivirus, so, would not have a knowledge if the Kaspersky is worth of having.

 

[LovingTeddy]

Thing is - the reason why Android malware even exists is precisely due to Google’s cavalier attitude when it comes to app permissions, and their automated process for vetting apps before they are submitted. It’s a systemic issue stemming from the very nature of Android itself. There’s just no getting around it. Google just isn’t willing to put in the same amount of time and resources that Apple does in this regard.

iOS isn’t perfect, but the reason for issues like Group FaceTime exist despite Apple’s best efforts to lock down their platform, not because of it. That’s the difference.

And maybe that’s the whole crux of the matter. If you want the sort of freedom that Android offers, then you have to accept that security will never be as tight as on iOS, where Apple sees to it that users are not given anywhere near enough rope to hang themselves with.

Neither is wrong. It all boils down to personal preference, and I just so happen to prefer and appreciate the good work that Apple is doing here.

The idea is that just because malware exits, do not mean corporation can make decision for others.

It is like just because few Nazis using internet to troll and spread healthful message, do we go around and ban the their internet or our ISP goes ban all the social media sites?

When is it up to a corporation decided to do what app is acceptable for the society and what is not? The way Google handles things is exactly right. It should give the end users to decided and taking the responsibility of their own decision. The entire idea of Apple controlling everything is because the whole assumption of users are stupid and not know what to do. You can’t have this type if thinking and support democracy at same time. If you think people are dumb and not know what they are doing, then you can’t possiblely support big decision made by group of dumb people.

 

[sidewinder3000]

NO I buy Apple product because I like them, then find myself with limitation that should not be there in the first place, and cope with it.

The Pro of Apple for me is not in the walled garden!

Also for a company that touts creativity it seems very limiting, and not allowing developers to be creative.

May be YOU buy Apple because they are in control (and fine by me, it's your choice), I really do not.

P.S. I also have Android. like it quite a lot, it isn't the 90s anymore, I grew up and buy from different vendors, i buy what I like and what works for me no matter who produces it.

Apple has its fair number of issue, as any other vendor, sometimes they make great product and then cripple them down with SW (BOY the iPad Pro has so much more potential than it is allowed!!!!!).

You seem like a smart guy. And you are clearly aware that Apple is and always has been a company that likes to control as many variables as possible in order to provide a more seamless experience for users. And I’m sure you know that. So when you buy an Apple product, no matter how shiny, or sleek, and easy to use as it may be, you know what you’re getting.

 

[genovelle]

I’m with Apple here. If there is a feature that is desired but difficult to secure and police because it requires an uncomfortable amount of access. They should do it in house.

 

[YaBe]

You seem like a smart guy. And you are clearly aware that Apple is and always has been a company that likes to control as many variables as possible in order to provide a more seamless experience for users. And I’m sure you know that. So when you buy an Apple product, no matter how shiny, or sleek, and easy to use as it may be, you know what you’re getting.

Thank you for the smart guy.... not sure if I would call myself smart and I am happy the conversation is nice, but really there 's so much more potential that could be given if only Apple allowed more.

Yes people know they are restrictive when they buy, but it is us the customer who should be telling them what we want (this isn't Jobs Apple anymore).

Accepting passively won't make any change. Oh one can wish!

 

[LovingTeddy]

Since you're not root, unless you jailbreak I see no logical reason why someone would need an Antivirus/malware app for iOS. All apps are reviewed by Apple and signed. This isn't Windows, where almost everyone is administrator.

Actually, Windows no long assume everyone is administrator now. This is exactly why UAC control existing back from Windows Vista

 

[now i see it]

they've been doing stuff like this since the Mac was invented. It's Apple

 

[mytdave]

I think both Kaspersky and Spotify have a legitimate argument. Apple has exhibited some monopolistic tendencies since becoming so big. They should do some self-reflection and modify some of their actions and policies before they're forced to modify by antitrust regulators.

 

[LovingTeddy]

I’m with Apple here. If there is a feature that is desired but difficult to secure and police because it requires an uncomfortable amount of access. They should do it in house.

Apple doesn’t seems have issue with Kapasky running on Mac.... So are you OK with Apple locks down Mac like iOS?

 

[Abazigal]

The idea is that just because malware exits, do not mean corporation can make decision for others.

It is like just because few Nazis using internet to troll and spread healthful message, do we go around and ban the their internet or our ISP goes ban all the social media sites?

When is it up to a corporation decided to do what app is acceptable for the society and what is not? The way Google handles things is exactly right. It should give the end users to decided and taking the responsibility of their own decision. The entire idea of Apple controlling everything is because the whole assumption of users are stupid and not know what to do. You can’t have this type if thinking and support democracy at same time. If you think people are dumb and not know what they are doing, then you can’t possiblely support big decision made by group of dumb people.

Thing is - Apple is not the government. That’s why I am okay with them being what is effectively a benevolent dictatorship in their own little ecosystem.

It’s a smartphone, not a statement about my political affiliation. I want my products to just work, and I pay the “Apple Tax” for Apple to do this sort of stuff for me so that I don’t need to.

It’s no different from say, ordering food delivery. You can criticise me as being too lazy to cook, but I am just so tired after a long day at work that I don’t mind just throwing money at a problem to make it go away. Can I still drag myself to the kitchen and whip up a quick meal? Sure. Does that mean I want to? No.

Same here. Paying Apple to maintain a walled garden doesn’t mean I am too dumb or lazy to do my due diligence, but that I am okay with outsourcing this to any company so I don’t need to. At least on iOS, I can be sure that the app I download isn’t going to turn my phone into a cryptocurrency miner or upload my contacts to some server in China.

I am not married to the idea of free competition just for the sake of free and open competition. That, like so many other things, ought to be a means to an end, not an end in itself.

And the end we ought to be striving towards is a great user experience. I can acknowledge and accept that each of us has differing opinions of what a great smartphone experience entails and how to go about achieving this. For me, that means not having to worry about getting viruses and malware and having access to great apps. It means Apple owning all the key technologies underpinning their products so they are able to integrate them at a system level so as to afford me a better user experience.

On the flip side, let’s look at what the google play store has to show for supposedly “doing things the right way”. Piracy is rampant, and it shows when developers choose to release apps for iOS first or exclusively, because that’s where the money is.

If you surf reddit, you will find that android app developers are actually appreciative of the extra effort that Apple puts into vetting their apps and curating the App Store.

Epic forces users to sideload an App Store onto their phones in order to download Fortnite, potentially compromising the security of their devices. Do you see Epic attempting a similar stunt on iOS? No. I still get the app from the App Store, months before Android even.

So if there is a benefit to the google play store in being so open and free, it’s not one that interests me in the least.

Does that make me a terrible person? Maybe. I will leave it to all of you to decide.

 

[Abazigal]

Double post - ignore.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple doesn’t seems have issue with Kapasky running on Mac.... So are you OK with Apple locks down Mac like iOS?

I would be fine with it.

 

[Kabeyun]

Apple has a history of banning or crippling apps that overlap with a new app/feature that they are about to launch themselves (long after the “offending” apps launch). It is straightforward use of a platform to stifle competition, regardless of what the Apple apologists say. If the Apple app/feature is truly superior, it would win without such tactics.

If you were Dunkin’ Donuts would you let someone sell their own coffee out of your vestibule? Would that person have a right to sell their coffee at Dunkin' Donuts?

Suppose they were allowed to sell corn fritters because a Dunkin’ Donuts didn’t offer them and were okay with it. Now suppose a couple of years later they start offering corn fritters. Sad for the entrepreneur who built a corn fritters business out of a Dunkin‘ Donuts vestibule, but DD isn’t within their rights to now disallow this person from selling his own corn fritters in their property? It’s illegal to tell him he’s done? They must be forced to allow a competing product in heir own store? Especially if people though they tasted better?

It’s an interesting analogy. I guess the problem might be that right now there is no other place to sell “corn fritters.”

The counter argument is that “Dunkin’ Donuts” (iOS, App Store) is changing and adding features all the time, and that devs are bound by this. Plenty of devs/apps have dies due to a new baked-in feature or function, even without a ban.

 

[78Bandit]

Isn't the reason that it's now built-in and it's duplicating the OS enough?

Was that good enough for Microsoft when they integrated browser level functionality into the operating system and restricted access of third-party programs like Netscape?

 

[LovingTeddy]

Thing is - Apple is not the government. That’s why I am okay with them being what is effectively a benevolent dictatorship in their own little ecosystem.

It’s a smartphone, not a statement about my political affiliation. I want my products to just work, and I pay the “Apple Tax” for Apple to do this sort of stuff for me so that I don’t need to.

It’s no different from say, ordering food delivery. You can criticise me as being too lazy to cook, but I am just so tired after a long day at work that I don’t mind just throwing money at a problem to make it go away. Can I still drag myself to the kitchen and whip up a quick meal? Sure. Does that mean I want to? No.

Same here. Paying Apple to maintain a walled garden doesn’t mean I am too dumb or lazy to do my due diligence, but that I am okay with outsourcing this to any company so I don’t need to. At least on iOS, I can be sure that the app I download isn’t going to turn my phone into a cryptocurrency miner or upload my contacts to some server in China.

I am not married to the idea of free competition just for the sake of free and open competition. That, like so many other things, ought to be a means to an end, not an end in itself.

And the end we ought to be striving towards is a great user experience. I can acknowledge and accept that each of us has differing opinions of what a great smartphone experience entails and how to go about achieving this. For me, that means not having to worry about getting viruses and malware and having access to great apps. It means Apple owning all the key technologies underpinning their products so they are able to integrate them at a system level so as to afford me a better user experience.

On the flip side, let’s look at what the google play store has to show for supposedly “doing things the right way”. Piracy is rampant, and it shows when developers choose to release apps for iOS first or exclusively, because that’s where the money is.

If you surf reddit, you will find that android app developers are actually appreciative of the extra effort that Apple puts into vetting their apps and curating the App Store.

Epic forces users to sideload an App Store onto their phones in order to download Fortnite, potentially compromising the security of their devices. Do you see Epic attempting a similar stunt on iOS? No. I still get the app from the App Store, months before Android even.

So if there is a benefit to the google play store in being so open and free, it’s not one that interests me in the least.

Does that make me a terrible person? Maybe. I will leave it to all of you to decide.

No. Going to pizza or whatever, this is entirely your decision to make. Not someone else. What is more apporiate is that one corporation is too large and controlling 90% of market share and they get decide to what people suppose to eat.

It is like saying, you can’t have pizza because this corporation has decided that pizza is not good for your health and you are banned for eating pizza forever. This is exactly what we are getting into.

I am not OK with Apple bans competing market place on iOS and then decides to make decision on people’s behalf in the name of security and seamless users experience.

If you are OK with corporation making decision for you, you can’t say that you are not OK for government making decision for you. This is to me the same thing: someone is making decision for you on your behalf, whether you are agree i or not.

I do acknowledge that some of the iOS app are better designed than Android or iOS app devoppler designed better apps ad put extra effort on the app. This is why i am on iOS. But I also dislike how Apple can tell me what i can do and what i can’t do. This is exactly why I have Android devices.

 

[Abazigal]

If you are OK with corporation making decision for you, you can’t say that you are not OK for government making decision for you. This is to me the same thing: someone is making decision for you on your behalf, whether you are agree i or not.

I guess this is our main area of contention, and personally, I am not seeing the hypocrisy. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[Timemaster]

Since you're not root, unless you jailbreak I see no logical reason why someone would need an Antivirus/malware app for iOS. All apps are reviewed by Apple and signed. This isn't Windows, where almost everyone is administrator.

Thinking that is the case is a fast way to get you in trouble. Apps being reviewed by Apple and signed does not mean that it is not hard to work around around. I personally have gotten around Apple reviewers on items that I know would of gotten me rejected due to it being unstable feature/ very slow load times for example which is against the rules. It was as simple as disabling those features on the review account. Apple was none the wiser. Hell the feature was even listed as a brand new one on the release notes yet they could not see it. The reviewers have zero clue how the app works beyond just clicking around. That is the truth.
In this case if someone wanted to get around it and found a hole they could get it up in the app store just have it hidden for while or hidden from the Apple test account and it launches later.
That being said at this time it is not worth putting AV software on iOS or Android at this time as they both are fairly locked down. The one who get in trouble on Android are generally going outside the store or getting crack apps.

I would be fine with it.

Spoken like someone who does not really use their computer. Apple putting that lock down would cripple a lot of people. First thing I did on my mac was disable Apple protection but for my job and what what I do for a living those restrictions would screw me. I am a software developer. I do install a fair amount of software that not fully signed or tools that I need that apple might scream about due to access. Some of them pretty custom tools.

 

[5105973]

Apple has changed and tightened rules in areas where the newly banned functionality was not added by Apple themselves, for example in the area of how websites and apps can track you.

But Apple might have also tolerated such apps because it did see them providing a legitimate service but with this service now provided by the OS itself it can curtail what third-party apps are allowed to do on iOS without depriving users of that functionality.

Yes, one see this as an unfriendly move by Apple but it is not that Apple is making any more money by banning this app (it rather looses its 30%) which Spotify can argue in their case.

I definitely see your point. However, unless Apple is somehow checked, they are just going to keep on absorbing key functions from independent app developers without giving them any form of compensation. I think we last saw this when Apple built the functions of an app called Lux into the OS. Over time, developers may just be left with games or stickers or emoji packs and any other product category Apple doesn’t see fit to incorporate into the OS.

Yes Apple would lose that 30%, but looking long term at the end game, by incorporating so many key functions into the OS that you can’t get from independent developers anymore, they control an OS that locks customers in even further to their hardware.

Coupled with their heavy advertising of security and privacy, this is bigger than it looks on the surface. This may be the method by which Apple tries to reclaim any market share lost to the ever encroaching Chinese upstarts.

Functionality built into the OS is almost always going to appeal more to the customer than apps. This is an odd case where a monopolist practice may be a boon to the customer.

But it will either crush out competition in the Android sphere or cause players like Google and Samsung to start building in more functions currently provided by independent app developers.

I don’t have a horse in the race. I don’t care on a personal basis what happens to app developers. My husband exited that line of work a few years ago.

But I can see why independent app developers are going to fight this sort of move in court and try to establish precedents that will protect them better going forward.

 

[macfacts]

. Take the “fappening” for instance. It wasn’t a hack. The main issue was due to the use of weak passwords and social engineering. Yet Apple got all the blame. Because F Apple, right?

Apple set the reset security questions to be so basic, anyone could google those answers for celebrities. Ever hear of the security advice of not using your birthday for a password? That's basically what apple did. Apple didn't get hacked, you're right. Apple just left the door wide open.

 

[mrex]

I don’t know if one should trust antivirus softwares Russian or not.

eh, it is well-known company and very reputable. take your tinfoil hat off...

if i should choose between Symantec (usa) and Kaspersky - i would choose Kaspersky without hesitating.

I always find amazing when people think about malware, they automatically print their finger to Android. I mean for the years that i have been dealing with Android, i have never encountered any malware for myself..i am pretty sure the malware issue is overblown by Apple fans.

overblown and whenever you read a news about it, it always the same story ”the app was installed from 3rd party marketplace used in china”. playstore isnt the only market place for android apps.

back to the topic... another news that should encourage developers to pull out their apps from app store for a week/month to protest against apple.

 

[5105973]

Oh I did just think of how this all does hurt consumers long term.

If the landscape for App developers becomes as bleak as I just outlined that it could, how many developers are going to knock themselves out developing a new product if they know their “host” is only going to steal their concept during the next OS update and knock them out with no compensation, by saying their functionality is now in some form of violation after they move the goalposts.

Apple isn’t exactly known for innovation anymore. They see what’s already out there and they take it. Sometimes they legitimately buy it. Sometimes, if the many accusations against them are to be believed, they just take it and trust that nobody has the stamina to fight their lawyers.

With a dead app environment that’s only about sticker packs and games, you know Apple is going to just sit on its big lazy butt. Look at Siri’s fall from grace to see how much malaise permeates their corporate culture now.

I want to see Apple do well by their customers and for themselves. But at times they choose a path that leads to stagnation.