Kuo: Apple-Designed 5G Modem May Debut in iPhones as Early as 2023

[Darth Tulhu]

You do know Apple don't own arm right? Arm builds the latest gen, license out the schematics, and vendors are allowed to tweak it. I give you that Apple has done a great job at enhancing the architect but they didn't create it. Plus, Apple then goes to tsmc and ask them to build the cpu.

Intel goes to no one to build it. They have their own manufacturing. Just like with Samsung, they have their own manufacturing. Apple needs tons of vendor to build their phones parts and not to mention Foxconn.

Yes, I know, hence "build" in quotations.

What I mean is Apple will eventually control everything in their devices and not rely on third-party designs, etc., and no one else will have exactly what they (have someone else) build (for them), like it is for the A and M-series processors.

 

[technole]

Apple will still have to pay Qualcomm for some 5G patents, and it might not even be cheaper in the long-haul but there is the control factor of having all their own chips in their phones. You have to figure they could squeeze out better battery life, along with working with carriers more directly.

 

[Zdigital2015]

No, they did not let most of the experienced designers go.

I would assume that Intel basically ran the modem division into the ground for wont of good management, Apple took over after weeding out certain managers and personnel, kept the cream of the crop and is giving them room to grow and the support necessary to flourish. Of course there’s pressure to excel along with that, but at least they are getting more resources than what they got from Intel. Or am i wrong?

 

[cmaier]

I would assume that Intel basically ran the modem division into the ground for wont of good management, Apple took over after weeding out certain managers and personnel, kept the cream of the crop and is giving them room to grow and the support necessary to flourish. Of course there’s pressure to excel along with that, but at least they are getting more resources than what they got from Intel. Or am i wrong?

Yep. They also added folks from other places.

 

[_Spinn_]

A game changer would be if Apple does what OneMedia recently did. A 5G modem with a 4K Broadcast TV chip within it, yes LIVE TV on your smart phone with no data usage needed. Samsung has the tech too, but it already exists and is being tested in America in Hunt Valley, Maryland as we speak under an experimental short term FCC permit. But Apple would never be so bold to beat Samsung to market with anything even though I'll bet Samsung will make those phones in South Korea for sure. The carriers will not like this phone. This particular phone is not commercially available, only for testing purposes, but a commercial version will happen soon by someone and hopefully with a better appearance. Apple?View attachment 1772510

I would love to have a digital TV tuner in my phone. It would be handy in the case of severe weather that takes down the power and cell towers in your immediate area. Heck even having an AM/FM tuner and weather radio would be nice. I miss using the FM tuner in my older phones (but they used the headphone jack and cord for the antenna). I don't see it ever happening though - cell phone carriers want to up-sell their higher data plans and this would under-cut services like Netflix, Spotify, Apple TV and Apple Music.

 

[_Spinn_]

They’ll probably be able to finally integrate the modem into the SoC, like Qualcomm does with Snapdragon. And I hope this means cellular is finally coming to the Mac.

I can totally see this happening. I think this might be Apple's end goal.

 

[Rigby]

Intel's modem business was horrible.
They kept some people, but most of the experienced designers they let go.
For all intent, the Apple development is a restart with Intel IP.

This is false. Over 2,000 Intel employees switched to Apple as part of the deal, including a former Infineon location in Munich, Germany.

 

[cmaier]

I can totally see this happening. I think this might be Apple's end goal.

Probably don’t want to get everything onto the SoC - you don’t want to mix analog and digital circuitry. Noise from the digital circuits messes with the analog circuits, and vice versa. Maybe the same package, though.

 

[_Spinn_]

Probably don’t want to get everything onto the SoC - you don’t want to mix analog and digital circuitry. Noise from the digital circuits messes with the analog circuits, and vice versa. Maybe the same package, though.

Good call. I always conflate SoC and package. But yeah the package would be the proper place for it.

 

[cmaier]

Good call. I always conflate SoC and package. But yeah the package would be the proper place for it.

Maybe. I’m not sure the bandwidth needs to be that high between the SoC and the baseband/radio.

 

[jon3543]

Yeah, keep dreaming. Qualcomm has been making modems a long time. Apple is just starting.

Kuo getting paid for this "research".

 

[Kierkegaarden]

Yes. Apple is trying to enter into someone's else specialty with no expertise. Look at their car division. It's gone nowhere fast and every car manufacturer they asked to help build the car turned them down. These stuff are incredibly difficult.

Apple had no expertise in phones before they released the iPhone. They also have been designing their own chips for over a decade — how did they gain this expertise? Do you really think modem tech is the summit they cannot reach?

Does Apple have a “car division”? When did this start? What car manufacturers have they asked for help?

 

[Kierkegaarden]

It's not difficult but it is ridden with broad patents that blocks you from even getting started.

If boiling water is patented, how do you invent new ways to make tea?

Based on their aggressive timeline, I am assuming Apple has cracked it and found a better solution. I just don’t think they would get into something this big otherwise.

Maybe boiling water is not patented, but rather the way in which it can be done.

 

[Abazigal]

It's not difficult but it is ridden with broad patents that blocks you from even getting started.

If boiling water is patented, how do you invent new ways to make tea?

What’s likely to be patented is one specific way of boiling water.

It doesn’t prevent someone from finding another way of achieving the same outcome. Much more difficult perhaps, but probably not impossible.

What intrigues me is that Qualcomm likely derives much of their income from Apple, given that their patent royalties are based on a fraction of the final price of the product, and iOS devices tend to cost more than the competition.

If Apple is able to sharply reduce the amount of money they have to pay to Qualcomm, or perhaps even circumvent it altogether, this could mean less money for Qualcomm to continue investing in R&D.

The long-term ramifications of this is definitely worth looking out for.

 

[0924487]

What’s likely to be patented is one specific way of boiling water.

It doesn’t prevent someone from finding another way of achieving the same outcome. Much more difficult perhaps, but probably not impossible.

What intrigues me is that Qualcomm likely derives much of their income from Apple, given that their patent royalties are based on a fraction of the final price of the product, and iOS devices tend to cost more than the competition.

If Apple is able to sharply reduce the amount of money they have to pay to Qualcomm, or perhaps even circumvent it altogether, this could mean less money for Qualcomm to continue investing in R&D.

The long-term ramifications of this is definitely worth looking out for.

Apple doesn't want to subsidize their Android competitors.

Apple wants to get better deals than the smaller guys, not the other way around.

I agree this is bad for the incubating companies and market competition.

 

[827538]

I think Apple will manage to make a competitive 5G modem but I have my reservations about them beating Qualcomm. It's really an issue of patents and Qualcomm has a ridiculous monopoly on a lot of the tech. In many ways a good cellular modem is as hard to build as a good CPU. I wonder if Apple will make this exclusively a 4G/5G modem in order to avoid some of the patent issues around CMDA (almost dead anyway) and save on its transistor budget.

 

[MacBH928]

I am not excited for this, so what if the chip is made by Apple or Qualcomm? Both log on the internet, both send and receive signals. I am using an iPhone and I don't know who made the battery or the screen.

 

[MacBH928]

or the folks just a year ago who insisted that Apple‘s Arm CPUs would suck for macs.

I am one of those people, given how complex a CPU is I couldn't believe Apple outperformed Intel and AMD at their own game. Those companies build CPUs ONLY, its their bread and butter and they specialise in it.

I just imagined Apple putting an iPhone chip in a Mac and dumbing it down to combine the Mac+iOS and call it a day, iOS is where all the money is any way and combining the 2 will simplify app development and give Apple less headache than to deal with 2 architectures.

They love Apple’s processors (which were great starting with the first one they designed from scratch), so don’t you think that Intel’s experience, combined with Apple’s excellent hardware designers, bodes well? After all, these modems are MUCH simpler than the CPUs.

Well, if that is the case how come Intel failed so badly at it?

 

[technole]

Apple had no expertise in phones before they released the iPhone. They also have been designing their own chips for over a decade — how did they gain this expertise? Do you really think modem tech is the summit they cannot reach?

Does Apple have a “car division”? When did this start? What car manufacturers have they asked for help?

People tend to forget top-tier modem technology was basically created and patented by Qualcomm such as CDMA.

So anyone with a former Sprint, or Verizon iPhone, benefited from Qualcomm.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Well, if that is the case how come Intel failed so badly at it?

Because they’re Intel.

More seriously though, Intel didn’t want to use Qualcomm’s patents because they wanted to sell their modem to other companies, and if those companies had to pay Intel and still pay royalties to Qualcomm... well then why not just go with Qualcomm and save money?

Meanwhile Apple doesn’t want to sell their modem, so it’s not an issue for them to license Qualcomm’s tech.

 

[MacBH928]

Because they’re Intel.

More seriously though, Intel didn’t want to use Qualcomm’s patents because they wanted to sell their modem to other companies, and if those companies had to pay Intel and still pay royalties to Qualcomm... well then why not just go with Qualcomm and save money?

Meanwhile Apple doesn’t want to sell their modem, so it’s not an issue for them to license Qualcomm’s tech.

then why not buy qualcomm from the get go and save yourself the trouble

 

[cmaier]

Because they’re Intel.

More seriously though, Intel didn’t want to use Qualcomm’s patents because they wanted to sell their modem to other companies, and if those companies had to pay Intel and still pay royalties to Qualcomm... well then why not just go with Qualcomm and save money?

Meanwhile Apple doesn’t want to sell their modem, so it’s not an issue for them to license Qualcomm’s tech.

Intel absolutely uses Qualcomm’s patents, and vice versa. They are licensed. Nothing in the license to Intel prevents them from selling chipsets using qualcomm’s IP.

 

[anthover]

I think most are missing the point. Apple is not simply relying on Intel ip/employees it acquired. Apple has Licenses to Quamcomm IP for at least 6 years if I recall (both as purchased modems or incorporated IP into Apple modems). **Apple's modem goal** is like it has done with A series and now M series processors of incorporating the current best modem tech into one package with RAM, CPU, GPU and other specialized compute units. This saves power and space and likely offers some inetgration speed benefits as well. I am not fan of Qualcomm as corporate entity, but their IP regarding modems has been superior. If apple someday can match or exceed this IP great. They likely will continue to have to license Qualcomm IP even after 6 years, but only time will tell. No company is an island. As a side note Apple wants to in house design as much tech as it deems appropriate to be able to offer it independence and creating a superior product.

 

[Ram65]

Will the apple modem have the same reception issue as intel did?

 

[cmaier]

Will the apple modem have the same reception issue as intel did?

We can’t predict the future.