Kuo: Apple to Use New Scissor Switch Keyboard in Future MacBooks, Starting With 2019 MacBook Air Refresh

[ipponrg]

Is it common use? Locking the computer but staying at the desk, why?
In any case you'd just lock it the same way you do now, I tried locking my MacBook Pro just now and it shut off the screen almost immediately so it wouldn't unlock unless you woke the computer, which BTW isn't too dissimilar from the Apple Watch feature which unlocks the MacBook simply by being near it.

If I am in a meeting and I am talking to someone, I will lock it to keep their eyes on me when I am talking and not on my screen. I can use the touch id sensor to wake and log in in one push. I don’t have to intentionally look at the screen to make it open.

So if you like something "a lot of people" do it but if you are skeptical it's suddenly a useless feature. Figures.

A few vocal sub-minority believe FaceID is the solution to their problems including their laptop. It’s nothing more than a gimmick in the laptop world. Can you identify what is the problem here, and what is FaceID solving on a laptop? Why do you think MBP users need it?

I’m simply presenting the counter argument for why I disagree.

 

[Craigwilliam]

A few vocal sub-minority believe FaceID is the solution to their problems including their laptop. It’s nothing more than a gimmick in the laptop world. Can you identify what is the problem here, and what is FaceID solving on a laptop? Why do you think MBP users need it?

I’m simply presenting the counter argument for why I disagree.

It's not a gimmick it's an alternative solution which would allow the touch bar to have more space to be a more balanced experience. I've already outlined my reasoning it's not my fault you've ignored it but I just don't agree with you. I especially don't agree with you that it's a gimmick. I've simply been using Face ID on my iPhone and believe it would translate well to the laptop experience you don't have to take such a poor attitude about it.

 

[4487549]

How'd that prediction pan out?

LOL with this guy as usual. Can't wait for the imminent, "Now he says it's the next refresh..." until it eventually becomes true. SMH

 

[mtneer]

How'd that prediction pan out?

LOL with this guy as usual. Can't wait for the imminent, "Now he says it's the next refresh..." until it eventually becomes true. SMH

Gotta give it to Ming. Just spray and pray and have the tech press following her every announcement.

 

[throAU]

If you have the facts of % it cases for The keyboards please leave it here. The widespread issue with the keyboards I don’t think is as big as it seems on forums. What’s the total amount over years of the butterfly keyboard compared to other years?

Out of all of the current/previous mac users i know personally

- zero had any keyboard failures with prior generation mac keyboards
- ~40% had one (or more) keyboard failures with the butterfly machines inside of 12 months
- one of them had THREE failures inside 3 months with the original 2015 Macbook 12". he loved that machine but literally could not afford to keep it as he needed a machine for work and he was spending too much time dealing with apple to repair/replace it. time he wasn't billing as an independent consultant


anecdotal? sure. but i don't think you'll find/get real stats out of apple.

 

[lec0rsaire]

Not really making an argument for anything here. Anyhow, it seems Apple is on my side.

As Jony Ive said (as a response to getting fired), I’m out!

Jony Ive wasn’t fired. In fact Tim did a lot to keep Jony happy. He elevated him above all the SVPs like Phil and Craig with higher pay as well. They allowed him to not even have to work on campus. It was Jony who was tired of Apple.

 

[lec0rsaire]

Much less versatile, you mean.

With keys, I could adjust volume and brightness, control media playback, etc. all without having to look away from the screen.

I’m extremely clean. I don’t eat around my computer or type on it unless my hands are clean. My keyboard broke in 5 months. This stupid attitude needs to stop. It has nothing to do with being clean and/or eating around the computer. The stupid switches just break. I asked the Genius at the Apple store how I could prevent it from happening again, and he said there’s nothing you can do. It has to do with the design. Granted, he is just speaking to what he’s seen, but that still says something to me, especially based on my own experience.

Then how do you explain my keyboard not breaking down even without the silicone that the 2018s and newer have?

I’ve never experienced keys not registering, registering twice or outright failing. My only complaint is that the keyboard can feel “sticky” when under heavy load with high CPU/GPU temps. This is something I noticed from the start but goes back to normal as soon it cools down. Maybe I got one of the good ones. I can only speak from personal experience.

I also regularly wipe down my MBP and all my electronic products. I can’t stand grime on keyboards not fingerprints on displays. Other people never clean their stuff. Now people can counter this by saying that they never cleaned their rMBP and ate all the time with it and I would counter by saying,” Yeah. The low profile design is more sensitive to debris ingress. It’s well known so be more careful with it.”

Then you have people who don’t like the butterfly keyboard but keep buying new MBPs! If you want a robust notebook that can handle anything buy a Thinkpad! You can drop it, bite your nails over it, eat cookies, etc. and nothing will happen.

 

[PaladinGuy]

Then how do you explain my keyboard not breaking down even without the silicone that the 2018s and newer have?

I’ve never experienced keys not registering, registering twice or outright failing. My only complaint is that the keyboard can feel “sticky” when under heavy load with high CPU/GPU temps. This is something I noticed from the start but goes back to normal as soon it cools down. Maybe I got one of the good ones. I can only speak from personal experience.

I also regularly wipe down my MBP and all my electronic products. I can’t stand grime on keyboards not fingerprints on displays. Other people never clean their stuff. Now people can counter this by saying that they never cleaned their rMBP and ate all the time with it and I would counter by saying,” Yeah. The low profile design is more sensitive to debris ingress. It’s well known so be more careful with it.”

Then you have people who don’t like the butterfly keyboard but keep buying new MBPs! If you want a robust notebook that can handle anything buy a Thinkpad! You can drop it, bite your nails over it, eat cookies, etc. and nothing will happen.

I’m glad it’s worked for you. Anecdotal experience is all any of us, outside of Apple, can go on. I’ve had poor reliability experience and so have those I know. I can’t dispute your experience.

Like I said, I’m extremely clean and careful with all my things, especially electronics. That didn’t stop mine from breaking. It’s pretty commonly known that dust and debris aren’t the only things that cause damaged butterfly switches.

I just know that I won’t feel comfortable using a MacBook again until they redesign the switches. It’s just to much wasted worry for me. That’s just me.

 

[cmaier]

Then how do you explain my keyboard not breaking down even without the silicone that the 2018s and newer have?

I’ve never experienced keys not registering, registering twice or outright failing. My only complaint is that the keyboard can feel “sticky” when under heavy load with high CPU/GPU temps. This is something I noticed from the start but goes back to normal as soon it cools down. Maybe I got one of the good ones. I can only speak from personal experience.

I also regularly wipe down my MBP and all my electronic products. I can’t stand grime on keyboards not fingerprints on displays. Other people never clean their stuff. Now people can counter this by saying that they never cleaned their rMBP and ate all the time with it and I would counter by saying,” Yeah. The low profile design is more sensitive to debris ingress. It’s well known so be more careful with it.”

Then you have people who don’t like the butterfly keyboard but keep buying new MBPs! If you want a robust notebook that can handle anything buy a Thinkpad! You can drop it, bite your nails over it, eat cookies, etc. and nothing will happen.

“I smoked once and I didn’t get cancer! Therefore smoking doesn’t cause cancer!”

That’s the argument you are making.

 

[throAU]

Then how do you explain my keyboard not breaking down even without the silicone that the 2018s and newer have?

Luck of the draw. Maybe the real issue is quality control (some manufacturing defect in x% of machines, and the dust excuse was originally to deflect blame to the end user(s) - much like “you’re holding it wrong”)? If apple really knew what the issue was, they would have fixed it the first time around?

I very much doubt the failures are to do with dirt ingress as one of the few friends i have with a 2016 onwards macbook pro who HAS NOT had a failure uses his in a dusty mining environment (in the pilbara no less.). He’s also a smoker, smokes whilst using his machine and also uses his machine outdoors in the smoking area of bars, etc. His is a 2016 - one of the first macbook pros with the butterfly keyboard, before they put the membrane in it.

If anyone was to have a failure due to dust ingress it would be him, but he has not had the failure. That doesn’t mean there is no problem though!

The other friends who have had failures are fairly clean people, non smokers, etc. So i’d say the theory that it is purely dust ingress is garbage. And this would also explain why the silicone membrane didn’t fix the problem - because dust maybe isn’t/wasn’t the problem. At least, given the above, i don’t buy it as being the issue.


As to other stats...

https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-butterfly-keyboard-macbook-issues-timeline-2019-4

See the end of the article.

 

[aengelbrecht]

Still holding on to my 2012 rMBP 15" at home hoping MBP will get a better keyboard. I have a 2018 MBP 15" for work and the keyboard does feel better than earlier versions, but not as nice as the older ones. With the recent SSD price drop it is starting to look more attractive to upgrade my home MBP (which actually cost more with 4 core, 16GB RAM and 768GB SSD than a new one with 6 core, 32GB RAM and 2TB SSD will cost, but would expect it to be even better given 7 years that have passed).

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Have been through innumerable 2016-2019 15" MBPs; every one has had the keyboard fail. Apple has been tight-lipped, as you'd expect, but one of their engineers said that heat appears to be the culprit. That would make sense, as our MBPs run the CPU and GPU 24/7. Or, rather, they did - we finally switched all our Apple hardware (MPs and MBPs) to HP Z8s.

 

[SweWriter]

Jony Ive wasn’t fired. In fact Tim did a lot to keep Jony happy. He elevated him above all the SVPs like Phil and Craig with higher pay as well. They allowed him to not even have to work on campus. It was Jony who was tired of Apple.

Of course. Of course. This all seems so realistic and valid.

 

[lec0rsaire]

Of course. Of course. This all seems so realistic and valid.

This is not my opinion. It’s from the WSJ. Jony was making more than nearly everyone at Apple except Tim and Luca.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/jo...-but-he-started-leaving-years-ago-11561943376
[doublepost=1562880363][/doublepost]

“I smoked once and I didn’t get cancer! Therefore smoking doesn’t cause cancer!”

That’s the argument you are making.

Except that I’ve been using that machine every single day for hours on end since 11/2016.

 

[cmaier]

This is not my opinion. It’s from the WSJ. Jony was making more than nearly everyone at Apple except Tim and Luca.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/jo...-but-he-started-leaving-years-ago-11561943376
[doublepost=1562880363][/doublepost]

Except that I’ve been using that machine every single day for hours on end since 11/2016.

“I’ve smoked every day for hours on end for 3 years and I didn’t get cancer, so cigarettes don’t cause cancer!”

The logic of your post doesn’t improve with such details.

 

[throAU]

Except that I’ve been using that machine every single day for hours on end since 11/2016.

See my post above.

The problem is, i believe, entirely unrelated to dust, and more to do with quality control and manufacturing defects/tolerances.

If your machine is OK, it may well be OK forever. But that doesn't mean there isn't a massive failure rate. We do not have proper stats, but we have a large number of anecdotal support for that - many people complaining about it, and a large number of people/companies stating that they are seeing massive failure rates.

If yours works - good for you, you were lucky.

As i stated above, the friend i have who would be most likely to get dust ingress in his machine has an early build 2016 Macbook Pro with the butterfly mechanism and is totally fine, despite using his in terrible dusty environments and also being a smoker. I have plenty of other friends who use theirs in clean environments who had one or more failures inside of 3 months. Worst case being three replacement 2015 Macbook 12" machines inside of 3 months.

 

[SweWriter]

This is not my opinion. It’s from the WSJ. Jony was making more than nearly everyone at Apple except Tim and Luca.

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/jo...-but-he-started-leaving-years-ago-11561943376
[doublepost=1562880363][/doublepost]

Except that I’ve been using that machine every single day for hours on end since 11/2016.

Exactly. Jony Ive receiving the high salary that he did all while failing to execute commercially was what prompted his leave.

 

[Isamilis]

I have 2 2014’s MBP and one 2017’s Air. Am waiting for this annoying keyboard issues resolve completely before considering to replace mine with the new one.

 

[PaladinGuy]

I switched to a windows PC for the first time in 13 years. I’m waiting for the butterfly switches to go away before I jump back.

 

[MacDonaldTrump]

I got a refund and my $ are just sitting waiting for something better. Considering a refurb 2015 for a while or going for iMac for now.

 

[everythingapplerainbow]

still no event news

 

[revmacian]

“I smoked once and I didn’t get cancer! Therefore smoking doesn’t cause cancer!”

That’s the argument you are making.

Your analogy is flawed.. here's why: The lungs were designed to facilitate the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide - they weren't designed to continually process large amounts of the chemicals found in cigarette smoke. Smoking cigarettes is a perfect example of using the lungs in a way they were never designed to be used. Oxygen deprivation can eventually result in cell death. Yes, I studied medicine for years in the US Navy.

I have a 2017 MBP and a 2019 MBA and neither of their keyboards show any sign of problems. I would definitely expect my keyboards to fail if I were to use them in ways they were never designed to be used - just like bringing carbon monoxide, and other foreign chemicals, into the lungs.

Now, I don't doubt that other people have suffered keyboard problems on butterfly keyboards. But, I cannot take their claims on face value because I don't know how they use their keyboards - humans have a tendency to avoid guilt and blame so they're not going to admit to something like pounding on their keyboards. I can, however, trust my own experiences and those experiences tell me that my butterfly keyboards work perfectly.. despite being years old.

So, you can believe what you want.. but I have the facts sitting on my desk in front of me.

 

[Spectrum]

Your analogy is flawed.. here's why: The lungs were designed to facilitate the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide - they weren't designed to continually process large amounts of the hundreds of chemicals found in cigarette smoke. Smoking cigarettes is a perfect example of using the lungs in a way they were never designed to be used. Oxygen deprivation can eventually result in cell death. Yes, I studied medicine for years in the US Navy.

I have a 2017 MBP and a 2019 MBA and neither of their keyboards show any sign of problems. I would definitely expect my keyboards to fail if I were to use them in ways they were never designed to be used - just like bringing carbon monoxide, and other foreign chemicals, into the lungs.

Now, I don't doubt that other people have suffered keyboard problems on butterfly keyboards. But, I cannot take their claims on face value because I don't know how they use their keyboards - humans have a tendency to avoid guilt and blame so they're not going to admit to something like pounding on their keyboards. I can, however, trust my own experiences and those experiences tell me that my butterfly keyboards work perfectly.. despite being years old.

So, you can believe what you want.. but I have the facts sitting on my desk in front of me.

Maybe you type very lightly..or very little..?
I run a small lab with 4 users with butterfly keyboards. In last 3 years 2/4 have a problem...
Compare that to more than a dozen previous generation MBPros over a decade or more. Zero problems...

There is no way I'm going to buy another 13 inch MBPro until the keyboard changes. Currently happily using one from 2014...

 

[revmacian]

Maybe you type very lightly..or very little..?
I run a small lab with 4 users with butterfly keyboards. In last 3 years 2/4 have a problem...
Compare that to more than a dozen previous generation MBPros over a decade or more. Zero problems...

There is no way I'm going to buy another 13 inch MBPro until the keyboard changes. Currently happily using one from 2014...

And I still have a 2017 MBP and a 2019 MBA, without keyboard problems, sitting on my desk in front of me.

Your attitude may serve you, but I will not allow your problem to become my problem.

 

[Spectrum]

And I still have a 2017 MBP and a 2019 MBA, without keyboard problems, sitting on my desk in front of me.

Your attitude may serve you, but I will not allow your problem to become my problem.

To suggest that people are using their keyboard in "a way that they were never designed to be used" is absolutely hilarious! It is a keyboard! One uses it to type ridiculous posts on the internet...😂