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I think the fundamental problem isn't a technology problem. It's a human problem. People do not want to wear things on their heads to interact with technology. It's not a human experience. 3D TVs had the same issue

Only because there's not been a good reason to do so. If you could step back before cell phones, "people" would very likely say they do not want to carry a brick of glass around in their pocket. People probably didn't want a brick of aluminum in their pocket before MP3 players. People probably did not want a whole computer on their laps before laptops. There was also great reluctance about planes by people saying "if God wanted people to fly..."... and automobiles before that, etc. I just got back from a few thousand miles trip. Thank GOD that those technology idea pessimists with apparently small imaginations did not rule on those innovations coming to market! My trips would have taken MONTHS by horse & carriage.

We see no purpose in any advancement until there is a purpose. A "think different" crowd should be among the first to actually imagine purpose. It's not very hard to imagine a dozen very interesting purposes if something can show our eyes anything in a realistic way.

Here's a simple test: if you could see anything right now that is not available to you, what would it be? After you imagine that, try the same test again but exclude what you just imagined. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. See how many wants you can conjure before you no longer come up with anything else.

THEN, ask someone else to do the same and you jot down their list. In only 2 people's "think different" imaginations, how many things came up on just 2 such lists? Now imagine 3 lists. 4. 5. 10. 20. 200. 2000. 200,000. 2 million. 200 million. Etc.

If these deliver "reality" as far as our eyes are concerned, up to everything on those lists becomes "only a software update/creation away." Since none of us have an imagination big enough to develop a complete list on our own, imagine all of the very desirable sights conjured by other brains that may then be able to come to us too. Now blend in accessory tech to do the same for our ears and probably the 2 senses most important to most of us could be stimulated in a "reality" way.
 
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How are you defining VR here then? Because my point is you will be able to be in VR experiences and overlay the real world into VR, giving you a mixed reality experience known as augmented virtuality, which is the inverse of AR.

What this enables is for VR users to feel immersed in VR worlds as they normally do, but with the ability to keep track on the real world one object a time depending on what they need. Headsets need very good object segmentation to really nail this, but that's what will be accomplished when it's viable.
OK, I see what you're saying now. I was using the traditional VR definition, which is not visually mixed/augmented.

My main point is that people conflate AR and VR. They assume this device will flop because of VR's limitations, without even considering the mixed/augmented possibilities, which is the one thing Tim Cook always reiterates in interviews. Quality AR will have the mass market appeal that VR has long wished for.
 
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Sorry if I sounded rude in my first post, but this just seems to be a wrong idea.

The AR/VR bubble needs to pop. Google couldn’t figure it out, neither did Microsoft, or Meta. These are all Apple’s contemporaries.

I want Apple to put resources in what it wants iPad Pro to be vs a touchscreen Mac. iOS 16 is a mess. iPadOS hasn’t had a refresh in years. Why does the iMac still have an M1? Are we getting a larger iMac? What happened to the “two year transition” to Apple Silicon? Where is the Mac Pro? Why did they bring back the HomePod if nothings different except the chipset?

Instead, they’re sinking money into a vertical which may not make it at all. I don’t get it. It reminds me of politicians who would rather build a new road than improving an existing one.
 
The fundamental design flaw of VR is that it blocks off vision.

No one wants to have their vision blocked off. It's not a viable concept. It will NEVER be viable.

Half the people are going to get dizzy, the other half are gonna knock over things and get injured.

Atari went through these concepts back in the 90's when they were developing a VR headset for their Jaguar game console. They ultimately gave up because of the injury liability problems.

Anyone that thinks VR will happen just isn't a smart product designer.

Remember when people used to talk derisively about people staring at their phones all day and walking into poles.

Still happens but nobody thinks about it anymore because it’s normal now.

Also notice what Cook said recently. He’s playing up the AR angle, not the VR one.
 
Sorry if I sounded rude in my first post, but this just seems to be a wrong idea.

The AR/VR bubble needs to pop. Google couldn’t figure it out, neither did Microsoft, or Meta. These are all Apple’s contemporaries.

I want Apple to put resources in what it wants iPad Pro to be vs a touchscreen Mac. iOS 16 is a mess. iPadOS hasn’t had a refresh in years. Why does the iMac still have an M1? Are we getting a larger iMac? What happened to the “two year transition” to Apple Silicon? Where is the Mac Pro? Why did they bring back the HomePod if nothings different except the chipset?

Instead, they’re sinking money into a vertical which may not make it at all. I don’t get it. It reminds me of politicians who would rather build a new road than improving an existing one.

Could say the exact same thing about tablets. They didn’t quite change the world the way people thought they would, but I don’t think anyone would argue against the idea that Apple figured something out that Microsoft and Google still to this day are not great at.
 
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I look on this two ways - there's the AR/VR experience and the product proposition.

Granted, not one of us really knows what the full potential of this technology is

I mean I know and I keep telling you guys it's full potential, but y'all write it off. "VR is only good for games so I can't use it" despite me clearly pointing NO VR/AR does way more than just games.

, but what we can do is take educated guesses at how it could be meaningful to us and other peoples lives.

I can imagine a mechanical engineer using it to understand how many components of a part are assembled.

They already do that. Engineer designers use Vive headsets for making 3D CAD models

A person walking through a natural history museum and watching a huge dinosaur skeleton come to life, to understand how the beast moved.

Steam and the Oculus store already has a lot of experiences like this of full virtual museums. In fact, the Louvre in Paris has a VR experience called Mona Lisa: Beyond the Glass, in which you can inspect the painting's tiniest little details without touching the art.

An artist could literally create pieces of work virtually on huge canvases, and share the work with others however they pleased for their own pleasure.

Also has been a thing since the OG Vive in 2016.


A senior-aged person could immerse themselves in a world long past, and in doing so help them to battle dementia.

Already been a thing: https://alzheimersnewstoday.com/social-clips/tackling-dementia-with-virtual-reality/

A music fan could be 'at' a festival taking place on the other side of the world and even meet friends there.

Post Malone had a full VR concert last year. https://www.billboard.com/music/mus...toothache-concert-virtual-reality-1235110887/

At school, children could 'see' and understand chemical reactions that would otherwise be too dangerous to perform in such a setting.

Man I'm getting tired of this: https://www.viar360.com/education-schools-using-virtual-reality/

Architects could tour the very buildings they design, using the experience to improve their vision.

Goes back to the VR client for AutoCAD

In short, the possibilities are limited by your imagination.

I swear to god people listen to you more than they listen to me. 🥴

However, the issue with AR/VR at this present time is that the technology hasn't caught up with the level of convenience required to make it a compelling product.

It's already at the level of convenience with the Quest 2. People wanted something cheap and standalone. They won't want wires, so John Carmack told Zuckerberg the Quest was the direction they needed to go. The result? The Quest 2 is now the most dominant VR headset on the market, completely dominating PCVR because of it's low price and lightness.

The problem VR/AR has, is software. It's one thing to make an affordable and convenient headset, but you need content to keep people interested, as well as to attract newcomers, something VR struggled with as last year not a single big title released. We were in a massive content drought, a drought that is slowly passing with the new PCVR games coming this year as well as the PSVR 2, and soon Apple Reality.

If you think about any of Apple's successful product lines, the hardware was always roughly close to what would benefit users.

The Macintosh 128k was radical as an all-in-one, and despite being underpowered Apple got the form exactly right. The iPhone started life as a ping-pong table-sized touchscreen, miniaturised into something that could fit into a pocket. The Apple Watch combines many sensors effectively into something as discrete as a pebble strapped to a wrist, in the familiar guise of a watch. The Apple Pencil is used just like an actual pencil.

Consumer VR as we know it now started in 2016 and required base stations to be mounted throughout a room and you needed a massive playspace, and a cable was always in your way. The original Oculus DK1s only had 3 degrees of freedom versus nowadays with the much better 6DOF.

Fast forward to now and we have standalone VR with the Quest 2, Quest Pro, and Pico 4. PCVR headsets are pretty much dead now as Windows Mixed Reality has been shut down, the Valve Index is old and outdated, and Meta doesn't make PCVR headsets anymore. Consumers only want standalone headsets that can be plugged into a PC when needed since it's a lot more convenient just putting the headset on and going, versus plugging it into a PC, setting up the VR environment software, and installing base stations

For AR/VR to reach these levels of discreet design where the outcome is almost inevitable to the user, as Jony Ive used to put it, the technology needs to advance significantly to the point where such a headset isn't too different from a pair of glasses.

Yeah I don't think we're gonna see that this decade. Apple Glasses is gonna be a long way out as to create something like that you're gonna need to shrink the silicone down massively while still being able to supply a battery, which is why Apple's starting with a traditional HMD first.

In the past, Apple has been patient and waited until the time was right. But it appears in this instance that Apple is employing a strategy, entering the market early with a cumbersome product in order to get developers (and a niche consumer audience) used to the idea of AR/VR in the first place.

Patient? C'mon you're the Apple Knowledge Navigator I thought you knew them better. The iPod had a tight deadline in 2001 to get it ready by the Holiday sales. iPhone also was rushed to get ready for the Macworld 2007 keynote, all the while it still wasn't ready. The demo prototype was unstable and could crash at any moment so Steve Jobs had to follow a "Golden Path" script when demoing it to minimize the chances of it breaking, and every time a demo was successful everyone in the greenroom took a shot of whiskey. It was a miracle nothing went wrong during the presentation.


From a investor and PR standpoint, this is the issue - everyone just expects Apple to sell millions of whatever it releases for no other reason than the company is successful.

Now this is true, and this is the argument I have with many others on this forum who argue that "VR isn't mainstream" because it doesn't sell the units an iPhone does. Nevermind the fact the Quest 2 in just two years sold over 30 million units, or that SteamVR has over 100 million monthly active users, that's not good enough it needs to sell 200 million or else it's not mainstream. They make the same argument when game consoles are brought up since game consoles don't sell the units phones do, and yet they're mainstream.

People will make excuses and shift goalposts no matter what because they don't like being wrong.

Investors also never see the longterm as they want short term gains so they can make profit on their stocks. Just look at Nintendo. They keep losing investors because Nintendo wants to go into a direction investors don't like, despite the company being wildly more successful than they've ever been, crawling from the clutches of death during the Wii U era into a global phenomenon with the Switch, and now even getting into movie and TV production.

But Apple doesn't need to sell millions of these units for it to be 'successful'; what will be success is when the potential of the experience is realised. Unfortunately, it's going to take a very, very, very long time before a headset can be both physically discreet enough and cheap enough to get mass market attention.

Welcome to the first gen Apple curse. It wasn't until the Apple Watch Gen 3 that the Apple Watch kicked into overdrive. The iPad kicked into overdrive when the 2nd gen came out. The iPhone kicked into high gear with the iPhone 4.

As I said earlier, give it time.

I mean, can you imagine Jobs approving an iPhone that had the size and battery life of a Motorola DynaTAC?...

Motorola-DynaTAC-phone.jpg


"You're holding it wrong!"

To be honest Steve Jobs thought the hockey puck mouse was a good idea so...yes? 🥴
 
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Perhaps this vr/ar thing will be the next cube (get the double entendre?). Great engineering but ultimately not sellable And its parts/lessons diverted to other products that ultimately do sell.
 
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AR gear has been around for about 30 years and still not made it.
So far, for most people, it's an interesting toy, and will continue to be it if the price is right. If it's too expensive, the market demand will shrink, and the product die.
Apple needs to price it right to make it go mainstream. Not everybody is rich and famous to afford expensive devices.
 
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Sorry if I sounded rude in my first post, but this just seems to be a wrong idea.

The AR/VR bubble needs to pop. Google couldn’t figure it out, neither did Microsoft, or Meta. These are all Apple’s contemporaries.

I want Apple to put resources in what it wants iPad Pro to be vs a touchscreen Mac. iOS 16 is a mess. iPadOS hasn’t had a refresh in years. Why does the iMac still have an M1? Are we getting a larger iMac? What happened to the “two year transition” to Apple Silicon? Where is the Mac Pro? Why did they bring back the HomePod if nothings different except the chipset?

Instead, they’re sinking money into a vertical which may not make it at all. I don’t get it. It reminds me of politicians who would rather build a new road than improving an existing one.
You wouldn't have an iPod Pro had the PC/cellphone bubble popped before we got to smartphones/tablets.

You're used to your Apple products but you have to remember that it took a long road to get here. No one could figure out a PC/Cellphone in the 1970s/1980s. They weren't figured out until the 1990s - that's how long it took, and that's why companies need to keep iterating on products until the tech matures if the market is to actually be figured out.
 
The dizziness (more like full-on motion sickness) is caused by:

a) a lag between physical motion and the display updating, and even though there's been an immense amount of work done on reducing it, this cannot be eliminated with any modern display tech. Classic video games don't work on modern displays because there's too much lag between pressing the controller button and the effect on the screen and

b) a disconnect between what your eyes tell your brain and your kinaesthetic sense tells your brain. There is no possible way for an optical headset to mitigate the conflict. Maybe a direct machine-brain link could do it, but nothing that's not out of speculative science fiction can even come close. Given this issue, it will never be done my "a physically correct set of photons". Photons are just one minor piece of the pie.
I've used VR goggles both with Steam and PSVR. After about 18 minutes... I'm done for the day. The motion sickness was terrible, and I don't typically get motion sickness at all. I've been done with VR since then, and would need a really compelling reason to return.

Coincidentally, I experienced the same motion sickness when I sat too close to my 86" TV playing Uncharted on PS5. Because of where I was seated, the screen essentially became a "VR" screen taking my entire field of vision. Same issues as the VR headsets, just not quite as bad.
 
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Okay; it really looks like a POS and all the naysayers are, indeed, correct when they point out that without a use case and a killer app, it's really DOA. One might have said the same thing about the Mac until we arrived at the Plus. Difference here is that the Mac was just another computer though unlike any that came before. How many thousands owned Apple ]['s by the time the Mac Plus was released? Just another computer although with a really nice GUI it converted a lot of people.

Who actually owns and uses an AR headset (besides a few niche gaming geeks and TV characters on fictional police procedurals)? Apple's AR headset will have to be seen as God's gift to humankind by people who have become jaded by technology but, frankly, are beginning to see tech as a PITA waste of time.

Queue the Apple fanbois.
2023-04-05 14_09_28-iphone haircut - Google Search - Brave.png
 
And if you're not joking, no one will be "blind" inside goggles. Rumors of cameras all around are abundant because they are key to the AR side of this thing. In my ONE use scenario, a little AR creates the our own hands overlay so that we can take looks at the keyboard for hand and finger placement.

The same cameras all around monitor for bad guys getting too close and the "one more thing" LASER rises out of a hidden compartment and vaporizes them. ;)
Yes, half joking, but it points to the problem with "goggles" versus more traditional "glasses." Any type of goggles will limit your peripheral vision, even if you still have 360° cameras. You would have to turn your head to pick up activity that would otherwise be visible peripherally. Thus, the potential to "negatively interact" with someone who has inserted themselves into an augmented or virtual space by means of wearing "goggles" is still incredibly high.
 
My use case: (1) AR mode, let the system overlay interesting factoids or widgets (weather) while I am wearing the device. widgets could be called up by "Hey Siri" requests. As a consumptive device, let me watch my Netflix queue (meh), or let me look out onto my real backyard with a book in front of my face no matter which way my head is turned (which I can dismiss or swipe out of the field of view if I want). In all of these cases, I can choose to see (or not see) the world beyond the headset with overlays of things I want to interact with. If the headset can display a facsimile of my eyes, I can interact with someone and they can tell I am paying attention to them (or not); a little weird, but better than having to take the headset off, or my guest staring into a blank surface and trying to read me.
(2) Productivity mode: give me an infinite number of screens in a spherical globe around my head so that I can rotate the globe and move to different displays of importance. Multiple Excel screens all clearly visible instead of stacked on top of each other; multiple Word docs, Safari on yet more; all visible by rotating my head (like spatial audio) or by swiping (Minority report); $3K would be a bargain instead of buying all the screen real estate that a hardcore power user may want/need.
(3) VR mode?: Not the space Tim seems to be predicting that the headset needs to go, and clearly not a super successful platform based on other players and developers moving away from. If Apple can support (3) but the real strength is (1) and (2), I think Apple-VR might have more useful AR legs to stand on.
 
AR is next big thing, but unfortunately we are far behind from getting there with current lens and display technology.

VR with pass-through is just a bulky sandbox playground for AR application until we have a proper AR glasses.
 
Yes, half joking, but it points to the problem with "goggles" versus more traditional "glasses." Any type of goggles will limit your peripheral vision, even if you still have 360° cameras. You would have to turn your head to pick up activity that would otherwise be visible peripherally. Thus, the potential to "negatively interact" with someone who has inserted themselves into an augmented or virtual space by means of wearing "goggles" is still incredibly high.

That's to be determined. If cameras are all around, the ability to see the bad guys approaching from behind- where even peripheral vision would fail us- becomes a possibility.

However, in a situation where it seems like bad guys could be on the prowl, I wouldn't be pulling out goggles or a laptop or even an iPhone. Instead, I'd choose to get out of that area and get to somewhere I could feel more secure using an iPhone or a laptop or goggles.

Also, unlike seemingly many here, I have zero vision of people wearing goggles at all times... just like people do not wear motorcycle or bicycle helmets or welders masks or ski or diving goggles at all times. I think they are in some kind of laptop-like bag until someone needs a screen and then they come out to deliver one. When someone is done with their computing, they put them away... just like they put away a laptop or iPad or iPhone now... or the motorcycle or welder helmet, diving or ski goggles. Use them when you need them, put them away when you don't. Some people in these threads seem to imagine goggles on people's heads at all times. Even iPhone is not out in front of anyone's face at ALL times. Even the teenagers put the phone away some of the time.
 
Good point, but either way Kuo would still have it wrong. Short term investors may be disappointed, but long term investors will not because they would be looking at the bigger picture and trusting the management team at Apple to execute a long term vision. AR/VR is also not a make-or-break moment like Kuo is framing it as.

Kuo seems to be trying hard to stay relevant, or he is just frustrated because there haven’t been major leaks about the product. He can only compare with what is available today. Smart phones were also available before the iPhone, for less money, and on more networks. But nothing available was as revolutionary as the iPhone.

I don’t see wearable AR/VR being as large as the mobile phone market anytime soon if ever, but Apple must see long term potential in it.

I generally agree, but if this one falls flat too, then we're likely to see an exit of the hype cycle investors for a while.

I suspect these kinds of developments are necessary to advance the state of the art. If you ask people "do you need AR/VR", people will probably say no. If you ask people "in 100 years will we still be looking at flat OLED squares we keep in our pocket", they'll probably also say no. Crossing the chasm from gimmick to useful tech is going to take time and a pile of failed efforts.

Apple has generally been pretty good at waiting for the wave to develop and then riding it to the beach, but there have been a few times they've made the mistake of being too early and having to kill off a development. Newton comes to mind.

I don't know where this one is going to fall. I'm a believer in AR/VR, I don't think I've seen anything yet that I'd consider truly useable, what I've seen on the Apple concept so far has me wary, but they've surprised me before.

What ever it turns out to be I'm pretty sure it will be a technical marvel-- the question will be whether it's a viable product.
 
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