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QCassidy352 said:
It's hard to believe anyone is clean at this point.

My point exactly.
When lots of money is involved, people go to great lenghts to win. Especially if the chance of being caught seems (seemed to be) so slim... :(

Does anyone know the full list of "suspects" of that Spanish doctor?
 
So much hangs in the balance by this...

I mean, if Landis is proven "guilty", how will cycling as a pro-sport recover?
Will anybody ever believe a cyclist again?
The French have always mistrusted Armstrong, and will probably have a go at him again....

So much has gone wrong in pro-sports this summer, that people will probably watch sports less, and therefore less sponsors.... I wonder if that's a bad thing though.... :rolleyes:
 
MacsRgr8 said:
So much hangs in the balance by this...

I mean, if Landis is proven "guilty", how will cycling as a pro-sport recover?
Will anybody ever believe a cyclist again?
The French have always mistrusted Armstrong, and will probably have a go at him again....

So much has gone wrong in pro-sports this summer, that people will probably watch sports less, and therefore less sponsors.... I wonder if that's a bad thing though.... :rolleyes:

indeed, it might be good, but the situation is apparently even worse in amateur sports, so i don't know if money is the only problem.

maybe if the US and the EU pass laws that make it a crime for professional athletes to use banned substances, the prospect of jail time would make them think twice.
 
Don't panic said:
according to cyclingnews, the ratio was 11:1 and the test shows the testosterone is exogenous.
if this is confirmed i hope Landis decides to tell it all.
The following is an excerpt from the above link. Aside from the obvious cloud of suspicions, there are other confusing issues and voices from both sides.

What are the sources of "German media...rumors"? Where did they get their 11:1 ratio info? I'm not disputing the information, but would like to know their sources.

Christiane Ayotte's quote: "more than half of the WADA-accredited labs perform it (IRMS) successfully". Does she mean the other half don't use it, or don't use it successfully?

Landis' lawyer is taking the track that the detection method via IRMS is "not reliable" and that "most laboratories don't use it" and that the lab in Chatenay-Malabry "must be the only one still using it". So who's right? Seems the entire system is out of alignment or antiquated to a degree and leaves too much room for subjective speculation.

In Landis' case, German media have on Sunday rumoured the result to be 11:1. "In our medical files appear not only blood levels, but also our testosterone status," said professional cyclists' representative Jens Voigt before the race. "It shouldn't be hard to find out if Landis is telling the truth."

But, much more important than this seems to be that the tests performed on Landis' A sample included an Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometry (IRMS) procedure, used to determine whether the testosterone is exogenous (contained within, but originating from outside the body) or endogenous (produced by the body itself). In the case of the American, L'Equipe reported that the analysis found testosterone of artificial origin.

Jose Maria Buxeda, Landis' attorney, contests the detection method via IRMS. "It's not reliable," he told French L'Equipe. "Most laboratories do not use it. In fact, the laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry must be the only one still using it." In the same edition of the paper, however, Christiane Ayotte, director of the anti-doping laboratory in Montreal, Canada, disagrees. "We use the method regularly," she said. "Moreover, more than half of the WADA-accredited labs perform it successfully. I'd even say that an IRMS which gives a synthetic result is very hard to contest. It's not a method that anyone can apply but the LNDD (Laboratoire de Chatenay-Malabry) has totally proven itself in this domain."

It has been pointed out that Landis' thyroid problems, the treatment of his inflamed hip with corticosteroids, as well as drinking alcohol on the night prior to stage 17, could be factors which could have affected his testosterone levels. "As soon as an athlete is controlled positive for testosterone, the same old stories come up," Ayotte continued. "The increase, even if natural, of the ratio testosterone/epitestosterone cannot, in any case, be explained by taking thyroid hormones or corticosteroids. Alcohol can in fact influence it, but only with women, and only for three or four hours."
 
xsedrinam said:
What are the sources of "German media...rumors"? Where did they get their 11:1 ratio info? I'm not disputing the information, but would like to know their sources.

It was initially a German TV report. It has since been independently confirmed by the Chicago Tribune.
 
MacsRgr8 said:
Does anyone know the full list of "suspects" of that Spanish doctor?

Astana Wurth: Michele Scarponi (ITA), Marcos Antonio Serrano (ESP), David Etxebarria (ESP), Joseba Beloki (ESP), Angel Vicioso (ESP), Isidro Nozal (ESP), Unai Osa (ESP), Jaksche Joorg (GER), Giampaolo Caruso (ITA)

CSC: Ivan Basso (ITA)

Caisse D'Epargne-Iles Baleares: Constantino Zaballa (ESP)

Saunier Duval: Carlos Zarate (ESP)

AG2R: Francisco Mancebo (ESP)

T-Mobile: Jan Ullrich (GER), Oscar Sevilla (ESP)

Phonak: José Enrique Gutierrez (ESP), José Ignacio Gutierrez (ESP)

Communauté de Valence: Vicente Ballester (ESP), David Bernabeu (ESP), David Rodriguez (ESP), José Adrian Bonilla (ESP), Juan Gomis Lopez (ESP), Eladio Jimenez Sanchez (ESP), David Latasa (ESP), Ruben Plaza (ESP), José Luis Martinez (ESP), Manuel Llorent (ESP), Antonio Olmo (ESP), David Munoz (ESP), Javier Cherro (ESP), Javier Pascual (ESP, former rider and current technicien)

Unibet.com: Carlos Garcia Quesada (ESP)

Previously retired or suspended for doping: Roberto Heras (ESP), Angel Casero (ESP), Santiago Perez (ESP), Tyler Hamilton (USA), Igor Gonzalez Galdeano (ESP)

This was the original list.

There may be some innocent names on this list, along with some guilty riders who have escaped the net.
 
elppa said:
This was the original list.

There may be some innocent names on this list, along with some guilty riders who have escaped the net.

Cheers.

But aren't those only the suspected cyclists?
I thought there were around 200 names on that list. I surely hope those will be revealed too. It would be outrageous if only cyclists were punished. :mad:
 
MacsRgr8 said:
Cheers.

But aren't those only the suspected cyclists?
I thought there were around 200 names on that list. I surely hope those will be revealed too. It would be outrageous if only cyclists were punished. :mad:

I got the 37 from here.

This statement from Eufemiano Fuentes makes interesting reading though.

"Treatment only for cyclists? I’m also indignant about that. I’ve worked with other sports, like athletics, tennis and football. There are a lot of names that haven’t come out, there have been only selective leaks. I don’t know why… There are still riders in the Tour de France who I have treated."
 
Thanks again.
Except the "This"-link didn't work for me...

But that quote really is interesting.

And that is what I am afraid of. The proverbial "tip" and "iceberg"

It wouldn't surprise me to have hundreds of drug-related convictions against all kinds of professional sportsman (and women, I assume) by the end of the year, and many fans will feel deeply "cheated"....
 
two considereations:
1. i wonder: if one of the other riders in fuente's list is perreiro, is he going to be stripped of the title too? can he? should he? if not, why not? Ullrich, basso and many others have been prevented to participate (and likely win) because their names where there, based on suspicions only.

2. regarding the 'whiskey and beer' defense: let's assume that it is true. That Landis is only guilty of having a few too many drinks the night before, and this in turn upped his testosterone levels and gifted him the TDF.
would/should this be acceptable? wouldn't it become the fool-proof smoke-screen for unlimited testosterone doping?
hey, they can even add it directly to the vodka shots (Absolute Man®)! i am sure it is very soluble in alcohol.
 
Don't panic said:
two considereations:
1. i wonder: if one of the other riders in fuente's list is perreiro, is he going to be stripped of the title too? can he? should he? if not, why not? Ullrich, basso and many others have been prevented to participate (and likely win) because their names where there, based on suspicions only.
IMHO he should. If not there will be huge protests from other riders and/or their teams bosses. Everyone should be treated the same.
Like in football: sometimes you have horrible referees, but if both teams suffer, at least it is fair.
Don't panic said:
2. regarding the 'whiskey and beer' defense: let's assume that it is true. That Landis is only guilty of having a few too many drinks the night before, and this in turn upped his testosterone levels and gifted him the TDF.
would/should this be acceptable? wouldn't it become the fool-proof smoke-screen for unlimited testosterone doping?
hey, they can even add it directly to the vodka shots (Absolute Man®)! i am sure it is very soluble in alcohol.
That excuse is the worst I have ever heard. So, if I want to be better at sports the next day, I can drink a couple of beers and whiskeys the night before??
It wouldn't suprise me that doctors all over the world will try to dismiss this theory ASAP. It is not only the fact that his testosterone was way too high, but he also performed superbly.... Usualy it is the other way around:
A couple of beers and whiskeys the night before has a negative influence on performance, especially as one can assume that a professional sportsman like Landis hardly ever drinks, and thus will have a larger effect on him.
 
MacsRgr8 said:
Usualy it is the other way around:
A couple of beers and whiskeys the night before has a negative influence on performance, especially as one can assume that a professional sportsman like Landis hardly ever drinks, and thus will have a larger effect on him.

Well if he's anything like Dave Wells (He pitched a perfect game for the Yankees when he was either half-drunk or hungover) it could be possible.
 
Tanglewood said:
Well if he's anything like Dave Wells (He pitched a perfect game for the Yankees when he was either half-drunk or hungover) it could be possible.

LOL!

I have heard similar stories....
Well, you get a boost in self-confidence after drinking, so it could help you relax and get into a sort of "auto-pilot" mode.
Also you feel pain alot less, which can help too...

But in endurance sports like cycling I am pretty sure alcohol will only have negative effects. Maybe the absence of pain can help you accross the first mountain, but I'm sure the second mountain will only be far far tougher.... espcially as you will be drying out aswell... ;)
 
Until the B sample is tested, it's all unconfirmed rumors but given his sneaky behaviour in the days after the initial test, it's pretty obvious that he's trying to hide something.
 
Tanglewood said:
Well if he's anything like Dave Wells (He pitched a perfect game for the Yankees when he was either half-drunk or hungover) it could be possible.
Then again... baseball is no real sport anyway... ;) Fitness is no real issue for baseball and a real alcoholic needs a certain level of alcohol in his blood for being normal...

groovebuster
 
groovebuster said:
Then again... baseball is no real sport anyway... ;) Fitness is no real issue for baseball and a real alcoholic needs a certain level of alcohol in his blood for being normal...

groovebuster


Hey, there's an awful lot of 'Mericans round here! You're lucky you're not in punching distance. Actually, real baseball can be fun, the kind that's played by small local or farm teams, where the stands are never more than 10 rows high, they players barely get paid enough to buy a beer after the game and they're playing their hearts out because this is the last chance they'll have. The other kind of baseball doesn't deserve to be called baseball anymore, it's all about the money and the 'roids.
 
Didn't you see my little... ;) ? I was joking!

My point was just, that cycling requires much more endurance than baseball.

By the way... cycling is not really my favourite sport either. I am more into team sports like handball... :cool:

groovebuster
 
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