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Criminal Law just went down today.

God, I HATED it. HATE HATE HATE!

Contracts was fairly interesting, property was fascinating, but criminal law...! I HATE the material, and I HATED the exam. (Contracts was... just a exam, and property was actually half-fun. (I'm not crazy!... am I?)).

I'm so glad it's over with, that stupid class. I just hope I pass the exam. :mad:

Ok, /rant... one more exam to go. Civ Pro, and then the HOLIDAYS here I come!

Naimfan, you agreed with me that working at a law firm sucks. I noticed in another of your posts that you enjoyed your work. I'm just curious, where do you work?
 
Criminal Law just went down today.

God, I HATED it. HATE HATE HATE!

Contracts was fairly interesting, property was fascinating, but criminal law...! I HATE the material, and I HATED the exam. (Contracts was... just a exam, and property was actually half-fun, no ********ting).

I'm so glad it's over with, that stupid class. I just hope I pass the exam. :mad:

Ok, /rant... one more exam to go. Civ Pro, and then the HOLIDAYS here I come!

Naimfan, you agreed with me that working at a law firm sucks. I noticed in another of your posts that you enjoyed your work. I'm just curious, where do you work?

Property was fascinating? Seek help! ;)

Civ pro was one of my least favorite classes in school and one of the more interesting parts of practice--mainly because so few people actually know it.

So what did they ask you in criminal law?

As for the rest, I work for myself and consult with a variety of firms and public interest groups, as well as stage managing in my spare time. I would not want to work in a large law firm--but I could be happy in the right small one.
 
Property was fascinating? Seek help! ;)

Civ pro was one of my least favorite classes in school and one of the more interesting parts of practice--mainly because so few people actually know it.

So what did they ask you in criminal law?

As for the rest, I work for myself and consult with a variety of firms and public interest groups, as well as stage managing in my spare time. I would not want to work in a large law firm--but I could be happy in the right small one.

The prof seemed to be obsessed with charges. Fact pattern goes like, four activists go to blow up a company building, a security guard lets them pass even though he's not supposed to, list all the charges that's plausible for everyone, including the guard's dog (ok not really). And discuss whether it will stand up in court or not.

Repeat that with different fact patterns for 4 times.

And the exam has nothing about accomplices/conspiracy. Just charges, charges and charges. Elements are inherently included of course - you have to include them in determining whether the charges would stand up in court.

I'm oversimplifying it, but you get the idea.
 
The prof seemed to be obsessed with charges. Fact pattern goes like, four activists go to blow up a company building, a security guard lets them pass even though he's not supposed to, list all the charges that's plausible for everyone, including the guard's dog (ok not really). And discuss whether it will stand up in court or not.

Repeat that with different fact patterns for 4 times.

And the exam has nothing about accomplices/conspiracy. Just charges, charges and charges. Elements are inherently included of course - you have to include them in determining whether the charges would stand up in court.

I'm oversimplifying it, but you get the idea.

You might want to check the elements of conspiracy. . . As soon as you see "four activists" (really, more than one suspect) you should be thinking conspiracy. The guard could be held to be an accomplice to whatever the activists could be charged with (off the top of my head, conspiracy, attempted arson, attempted murder, and burglary, though all depend on whether you were using only common law or the MPC).
 
I won't be in much debt come graduation, not compared to others anyway, so even if it's a awash, it's not all that bad, and a JD looks good on a resume.

"Yeah, right" says the attorney that crushed the bar like it was nothing, but didn't have good enough grades to get a sweet gig out of law school, and hated law school enough to not want to do a clerkship and refuses to do medmal litigation even though those are the only people that will hire a fresh face without experiece, and is stuck in the temp world.

Do you have any idea how much I look back on law school as the ultimate waste? The only good that came out of it is that I met my wife while I was in law school (well, and the kid that is the fruit of our loins).

If I had it to do over again, I'd rather work with Peter Gibbons, Michael Bolton, and Samir Nagheenanajar. I'd feel more accomplished than I do now.

You might want to check the elements of conspiracy. . . As soon as you see "four activists" (really, more than one suspect) you should be thinking conspiracy. The guard could be held to be an accomplice to whatever the activists could be charged with (off the top of my head, conspiracy, attempted arson, attempted murder, and burglary, though all depend on whether you were using only common law or the MPC).

The guard would probably be an accessory rather than conspirator. His actions furthered their goal, but he didn't allow them to pass with the intent that they blow up the building.

Of course, this is why I hated law school. After all, he could be charged with conspiracy, even though from what the summary sounds like, he let them pass not knowing what they were doing. It just wouldn't hold up.

Common sense has no place in law school exams...er, law school.
 
You might want to check the elements of conspiracy. . . As soon as you see "four activists" (really, more than one suspect) you should be thinking conspiracy. The guard could be held to be an accomplice to whatever the activists could be charged with (off the top of my head, conspiracy, attempted arson, attempted murder, and burglary, though all depend on whether you were using only common law or the MPC).

Oh, I have, It's so obvious. But the professor actually put at the end of the question, "(Do not discuss any issues concerning accomplices)" (paraphrased).

And IIRC, with that fact pattern, for the activists I discussed burglary, arson, involuntary manslaughter and felon murder (yeah soneome got killed off towards the end of the story). For the guard, a flimsy (but it's semi-plausible :p) charge of trespassing, and charges of criminal mischief and felon murder.

The guard would probably be an accessory rather than conspirator. His actions furthered their goal, but he didn't allow them to pass with the intent that they blow up the building.

Of course, this is why I hated law school. After all, he could be charged with conspiracy, even though from what the summary sounds like, he let them pass not knowing what they were doing. It just wouldn't hold up.

He might not have intended that they blow up the building, but it was negligent of him to let them pass. He should have known that something bad might have happen. That can hold up in court (well that's what they tell me anyway...)
 
The guard would probably be an accessory rather than conspirator. His actions furthered their goal, but he didn't allow them to pass with the intent that they blow up the building.

Right--hence "accomplice." Gotta agree with you on criminal law, though--that's part of the reason I don't do criminal--ultimately it's boring.

Common sense has no place in law school exams...er, law school.

Or in many areas of law. . .

Incidentally, you have a PM.

Oh, I have, It's so obvious. But the professor actually put at the end of the question, "(Do not discuss any issues concerning accomplices)" (paraphrased).

Aha. Never mind!
 
Right--hence "accomplice." Gotta agree with you on criminal law, though--that's part of the reason I don't do criminal--ultimately it's boring.

I find criminal law fascinating. Some people actually love Tax. Some people wouldn't do any law if they couldn't do public interest law. "Law" is so broad that there's room for all sorts of attitudes and personalities. :)

Hmmmm......I didn't find law school "boring" at all.

Me neither.
 
I find criminal law fascinating. Some people actually love Tax. Some people wouldn't do any law if they couldn't do public interest law. "Law" is so broad that there's room for all sorts of attitudes and personalities. :)

I should have added on "to me" to the part referring to criminal law. I have good friends who love it--just not my thing! And agree on how broad "law" is! One of its beauties!
 
DUDE!

It's ALL OVER!

I still have this nagging feeling that I ought to be studying, but then I remind myself... there's NOTHING TO STUDY!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[/Joker] (Yes, watched the leaked The Dark Knight trailer... Heath Ledger > Jack Nicholson... mark my words!)
 
Just bumping this thread to say that I survived the finals with straight C's, and am now sitting here being depressed because I'm now starting a new semester.

****.

Why can't I find a way out?
 
I have a job that's sending me to law school as on the job training so I can't find a way out.

My predicament started when I retired from my own business after a couple of decades, and being a dutiful taxpayer, and then went to the job re-training people at EDD. They said there may be a possibility that they want to train paralegals and lawyers and wanted to know if I would be interested. So I took the law school option not really thinking about it instead of the paralegal route because I had a degree. I had no idea what I was getting into.

I took a prep class last year and now I am in the second trimester of a 10 trimester program. Only 8 more to go and I am hating it. I have had jobs in the past that I hated but I could quit. But this is civil service so I don't want to lose out on bennies so I will stick it out.

Luckily, some of the most successful grads from our school almost instantly went into business instead of, let's say, the asst. DA job at $44,000 a year with super long hours and terrible stress. Our county has a weird pay scale and unlike most counties on the west coast, there is no ceiling so some really long term public servant lawyers make up to 150K eventually working for the county, but I couldn't see myself doing two decades of law.

One county employee got paid $400,000 dollars and most of that was a "bonus" and the press here, and everywhere else crucified him. They accused him of being in on funny/special interest money, not unlike some of the allegations against McCain and Clinton (when he was governor of Arkansas). But then again, in rural California, the chief defense lawyer may be married to the police chief, who is really her half brother and then they are all second cousins to Jeff Foxworthy).

If law school isn't a requirement of your job (military/civil service/fortune 500), then I saw quit while you are ahead. And if you are young, unlike me, there are so many options out there. Strange as it may sound now, I think an MBA with an e-commerce focus is hot again.
 
digging up threads?

reading these posts from 9 months ago somewhat validates my change (sorry) to pharmacy. seems like more job security and consistent pay, but also less upside. if i get in, i don't think i'll ever approach even new grad pay at big law firms.

if you guys are so dissatisfied rethink your priorities and what you want to do. how much are you willing to give up in terms of your happiness to get that pay check?
 
Well I'm in my second year of law school. It still sucks, and my grades still suck.

I've decided to finish it though - if I can survive with minimal work. I don't see myself as a lawyer any longer, but I keep hearing how a JD is a good thing to have anywhere you decide to go. And I'll graduate with about $30,000 in debt, compared to some who'll graduate with debt exceeding $150,000, I think I'm pretty lucky either way.
 
digging up threads?

reading these posts from 9 months ago somewhat validates my change (sorry) to pharmacy. seems like more job security and consistent pay, but also less upside. if i get in, i don't think i'll ever approach even new grad pay at big law firms.

if you guys are so dissatisfied rethink your priorities and what you want to do. how much are you willing to give up in terms of your happiness to get that pay check?

With around 200 law schools in the USA, the "Big Law" firms you are talking about almost exclusively, recruit from 14 law schools, and most of those being from what is known as HYS, or Harvard/Yale/Stanford. Even bigger pay, as business managers, often go to JDs, or to JD/MBAs, instead of straight out of school MBAs but again recruited for a small group of law schools and business schools. It's so easy to look at "reported" salaries from the top few law schools of any survey and think that all lawyers make great money, or that even a majority of lawyers do. The curve falls off more sharply over a larger amount of schools when it comes to law vs. MBA but more because there is more need for business managers for corporations than for lawyers. Many lawyers may start as lawyers doing law for a company and get promoted into a business only position, or management position and become a full fledged business person with a good salary never to see law again, so ravenvii, your JD has practical business applications if you do not want to practice law/litigate/etc.

And for anybody, if pay is what you are about, then law is not the way in. Like many law grads say in life and on the internet, be an investment banker, real estate agent (he he, at one time), or a whole host of other things. Remember that Johnnie Cochran charged a lot of money for his services, but also remember there was only one Johnnie Cochran.
 
Well I'm in my second year of law school. It still sucks, and my grades still suck.

I've decided to finish it though - if I can survive with minimal work. I don't see myself as a lawyer any longer, but I keep hearing how a JD is a good thing to have anywhere you decide to go. And I'll graduate with about $30,000 in debt, compared to some who'll graduate with debt exceeding $150,000, I think I'm pretty lucky either way.

1) Before law school had you always wanted to be a lawyer?

2) How are you graduating with so little debt?

I ask because I've always wanted to be a lawyer (since I was quite young) and over time nothing has really changed for me, except that I have a better focus on what type of law I'd practice.

If you hadn't gone to law school, what would you have done instead?
 
1) Before law school had you always wanted to be a lawyer?

Nope.

2) How are you graduating with so little debt?

A bunch of grants and scholarships. I went through my undergraduate years with a free ride. In law school, about half of my tuition, plus my room and board, is paid for. The other half of tuition I pay with loans, hence the ~$30,000 debt.

I ask because I've always wanted to be a lawyer (since I was quite young) and over time nothing has really changed for me, except that I have a better focus on what type of law I'd practice.

Good for you. Just remember that you must go to law school with the right motivation, and lots of it. Otherwise you'll end up like me, or even just dropping out. Law school is hard, very hard. Academically, it's not so bad, but mentally and spiritually, you've never seen anything quite like it before.

If you hadn't gone to law school, what would you have done instead?

Not the faintest. I was considering getting a MBA before deciding to go to law school. So that's probably what I'll do if I haven't gone to law school.
 
Good for you. Just remember that you must go to law school with the right motivation, and lots of it. Otherwise you'll end up like me, or even just dropping out. Law school is hard, very hard. Academically, it's not so bad, but mentally and spiritually, you've never seen anything quite like it before.

I totally agree with that statement as do most of my friends in school who are 1Ls and 2Ls. I have seen some people who were A students in undergrad drop out very soon while some who did not excel thrive. The emotional part is hard for most due to lack of support from each other (especially for schools that grade on the curve).

What I find hardest is that my school, and these schools really keep it low key, teach to the bar so students are graded on the same scale as the bar. Basically, if any given student graduates with an 80 that is exceptional, as an 80 is very rare on the bar. Last year's average passing score in California was 63.9 and one starts with 55 by just showing up for the test. Theoretically, one can get 45 points for each essay question to gain 100 points from the starting point of 55 but very few get over 20 points from that level. If someone does get at 80 on the bar, they are asked to become a bar grader. So the grading, to be set to the bar standards, falls between high 60s to high 70s for most of the law students. Sentence structure, legalese, citing cases, and spelling account for no points, whatsoever, on the bar. It's getting the issues and analysis dead on with what that bar grader is thinking subjectively.

Schools that do grade on the curve don't teach to the bar and one can theoretically graduate with a 90 from law school. What is the downside of that is one can fall into the trap thinking that they can get an "A" on the bar, or a 90 which has never been done from what any bar grader, or California bar employee has seen.

Either way is hard, psychologically, where you either get slammed up front, or you get rudely awakened at the end. If your school teaches to the bar, you come into the test having seen only Cs throughout law school, and if your school grades on a curve then you come in with perhaps a good graduating gpa but have a large body of legal theory but very little correlation of what is actually on the bar exam.

I like that I got into a school that teaches to the bar and there is no curve so students don't compete against each other. But since most of us were A students in undergraduate school, or at the very least B students, seeing all Cs, and some Ds, wears down on the ego that was built up with grade inflation. And grade inflation is the way in most schools and programs outside of law school.

The only good thing about most law schools, at least from the perspective of an older student that usually has kids in law school, is that if you get a "C" in most things in life, you are actually doing really well. Life rarely gives out "As" after high school or college, depending on when you hit the work force.

In the end, if you get a C, you graduate from law school, and if you get a "C" or 70 on the bar, you will pass with flying colors, and then some.
 
A bunch of grants and scholarships. I went through my undergraduate years with a free ride. In law school, about half of my tuition, plus my room and board, is paid for. The other half of tuition I pay with loans, hence the ~$30,000 debt.

What school do you go to, and can I get me some half off tuition? :p

Academically, it's not so bad, but mentally and spiritually, you've never seen anything quite like it before.

I keep hearing this, and that's why it worries me.

On the other hand, the people who normally tell me this are the ones who also say that law school was just something they decided to do because of either the money, or because they didn't know what else to do.

Is it safe to say that if I've always found the law interesting, that I'll experience less of an emotionally destructive state in law school?
Not the faintest. I was considering getting a MBA before deciding to go to law school. So that's probably what I'll do if I haven't gone to law school.

Have you considered getting an MBA after this anyway? JD+MBA is a good combo for the job market.
 
Is it safe to say that if I've always found the law interesting, that I'll experience less of an emotionally destructive state in law school?


I hate to say this but chances are if you found the law interesting before law school (as I did) you will not once you are in law school and have to start reading, memorizing, and utilizing things such as the Uniform Commercial Code, the Uniform Trust Code, The Uniform Partnership Code, and The Uniform System of Citation (blue book).
 
Is it safe to say that if I've always found the law interesting, that I'll experience less of an emotionally destructive state in law school?

Being interested in law will keep you on point with the topic of law and keep you away from all the competitive bs and backstabbing so you may avoid that emotional and psychological pitfall. If you decide on law school, realize that study groups are usually more harmful than helpful and can suck you into all the mind games that should have no place in law school. So that's a huge plus for you (if law is what you like) because being interested in law will keep your mind occupied as opposed to all those law students who won't study it, because they hate it, and find more time to bash professors and fellow students. They bring down the whole atmosphere and thus make law school "hard". The academics rarely push anybody like a master's or phd program will. My MBA school days were far more easy psychologically but harder academically and I would do the MBA school thing over law school any day of the week. And note that among graduate degrees, the MBA is most often considered the easiest, especially among those who have been in more than one graduate program. No thesis for MBAs. But it's still harder academically than law school.

That being said, if you love the law and think it's about truth, being fair, or quickly bringing justice to those in power who break the law in the most heinous ways (watergate, iran-contra, big tobacco, etc), then you are in for a huge letdown. What you will study largely in the first semester, or trimester, depending on your school's system, will most likely be appeals rulings in contracts, torts, and criminal law. It is there you will see that justice/fairness is not the USA legal system, but who presents the better argument. Big money can and will be able to keep you from suing them and having it stick. The most expensive process in our legal system is the appeals process, and due to its length and cost, justice is done usually for the rich and powerful. That's a huge letdown to a lot of law students who thought they were going into it to change the world, or even just their community.
 
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