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CalBoy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2007
7,849
37
I hate to say this but chances are if you found the law interesting before law school (as I did) you will not once you are in law school and have to start reading, memorizing, and utilizing things such as the Uniform Commercial Code, the Uniform Trust Code, The Uniform Partnership Code, and The Uniform System of Citation (blue book).

I've never really had a problem with memorization (even with overly technical things), and I view that as a part of any profession (the doctor needs to know your bones, muscles, etc, just as the lawyer needs to know the legal code right?).

I'm sure I'll find it a pain to do it, but I'm much more worried about the stats that say a high percentage of law school students drop out after the first year.
competitive bs

It's actually nice to hear that your peers make life difficult, not the cirrocumuli. I can always steer the conversation away from that, but it's not so easy to convince a professor to go easy on you. :p
That being said, if you love the law and think it's about truth, being fair, or quickly bringing justice to those in power who break the law in the most heinous ways (watergate, iran-contra, big tobacco, etc), then you are in for a huge letdown.

Hehehe, I've never thought that about the law. :p

I'm a pessimistic bastard. :p

I'd like to be an appellate lawyer, and while I have a few personal reasons for that branch of the law, I simply find Constitutional interpretation to be much more interesting.
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
I've never really had a problem with memorization (even with overly technical things), and I view that as a part of any profession (the doctor needs to know your bones, muscles, etc, just as the lawyer needs to know the legal code right?).

I'm sure I'll find it a pain to do it, but I'm much more worried about the stats that say a high percentage of law school students drop out after the first year.


It's actually nice to hear that your peers make life difficult, not the cirrocumuli. I can always steer the conversation away from that, but it's not so easy to convince a professor to go easy on you. :p


Hehehe, I've never thought that about the law. :p

I'm a pessimistic bastard. :p

I'd like to be an appellate lawyer, and while I have a few personal reasons for that branch of the law, I simply find Constitutional interpretation to be much more interesting.

Do a google on the UCC and see how that pleases you. It's key in everything that pays in the field. :)

If you want to be an appellate lawyer vs. one who is a do-gooder to change the world, then I have to say that you sound more qualified to not only thrive in law school, but enjoy it.

As for being a lawyer, you will have to ask someone on this thread who has done it for a long time to get their perspective. I am yet to meet one lawyer in my 20+ years in the working world who says they like their work. The lawyers I know who say they like it are law professors. Job rating polls will point this out. So if you can't stand to practice law, teach, baby, teach.

The only law school online that can get you licensed that has made the headlines for their impact on law does not use the outdated LSAT as an entrance exam. They test you on the UCC after giving you a fact pattern regarding the UCC.
 

CalBoy

macrumors 604
May 21, 2007
7,849
37
Do a google on the UCC and see how that pleases you. It's key in everything that pays in the field. :)

It seems long and complicated, just as the law is often thought of. :p

As for being a lawyer, you will have to ask someone on this thread who has done it for a long time to get their perspective. I am yet to meet one lawyer in my 20+ years in the working world who says they like their work. The lawyers I know who say they like it are law professors. Job rating polls will point this out. So if you can't stand to practice law, teach, baby, teach.

I know that lawyers are amongst the most unhappy in their profession (followed by dentists I believe :eek:), and I'm prepared to face that fact should it arise (by teaching as you mentioned, or writing, or doing any number of things that a JD gives me the ability to do).

I'm just trying to get a feel for law school since it's seen as this great nexus of evil for law school students.
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
It seems long and complicated, just as the law is often thought of. :p



I know that lawyers are amongst the most unhappy in their profession (followed by dentists I believe :eek:), and I'm prepared to face that fact should it arise (by teaching as you mentioned, or writing, or doing any number of things that a JD gives me the ability to do).

I'm just trying to get a feel for law school since it's seen as this great nexus of evil for law school students.

Depression in school is common. I combat that by exercise, taking breaks, and living a life outside of law school. Caffeine and alcohol are of no help. Sleep is key. Remember those and you will be OK.
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
I just about finished up the reading for most of my substantive classes this trimester. I found the commercial study guides only marginally better than the wordy textbooks. Last trimester, I was trying to figure out the differences between Contracts, Torts, and Criminal Law when certain concepts merged. During the first trimester before that, I was trying to fit in my sense of justice with the black letter of the law, and trying to establish the difference between common law and the model penal code. I thought I was alone in my utter frustration of law school.

But I recently was handed a book by a highly ranked upperclassman, and it gave me a real perspective on this thread. Too much stuff to talk about here.

But read "The Destruction of Young Lawyers - Beyond One L" by Douglas Litowitz, JD, PhD, ISBN 1-931968-26-8, The University of Akron Press, Akron, Ohio. http://www.uakron.edu/uapress. :)

This is easily the best book I have ever read about law school.
 

airjuggernaut

macrumors 6502a
Oct 16, 2007
535
0
Wow this thread is extremely depressing to read :(

I'm in Grade 11 right now and essentially, this is the last year I have left before I have to make my vital career choices.

In the 8th grade I was pretty sure I wanted to be a programmer, until I took a programming course in high school, and realized that it was not the career for me.

I then went on wanting to become a doctor. That crashed and burned very quickly, as I realized that I have little/to no interest in science (especially biology).

I'm taking Law right now, and hands-down, it's the best course I've ever taken in my entire school career.
It's fascinating, exciting, analytical and at the end of the day leaves me with the words, "WOW!" Implanted inside my head.

I was 100% sure that I wanted to become a lawyer, but now...this is just...wow.

I'm not sure if the American Law education system is that same as Canada's, but if it is. It certainly seems like I'll be heading into a life of very little happiness.

Is it really that bad everyone?

Should I jump onto another track, before I get hit by the reality train?
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
Wow this thread is extremely depressing to read :(

I'm in Grade 11 right now and essentially, this is the last year I have left before I have to make my vital career choices.

In the 8th grade I was pretty sure I wanted to be a programmer, until I took a programming course in high school, and realized that it was not the career for me.

I then went on wanting to become a doctor. That crashed and burned very quickly, as I realized that I have little/to no interest in science (especially biology).

I'm taking Law right now, and hands-down, it's the best course I've ever taken in my entire school career.
It's fascinating, exciting, analytical and at the end of the day leaves me with the words, "WOW!" Implanted inside my head.

I was 100% sure that I wanted to become a lawyer, but now...this is just...wow.

I'm not sure if the American Law education system is that same as Canada's, but if it is. It certainly seems like I'll be heading into a life of very little happiness.

Is it really that bad everyone?

Should I jump onto another track, before I get hit by the reality train?

There is no way I can know, either. I am late third trimester in a ten to eleven trimester program so I have no real meat on the subject of law. Ask me when I am seven trimesters behind me and a 3L. I am in a part time 4 year program and so far, it sucks, but many say the first six trimesters really suck but may get better by mid 3rd year and 4th year when you actually get to start choosing electives that suit your interest.

It's a grind at 35-45 hours a week, but it's nothing like those full time students who log 60-80 hours a week in a typical 3 year program. It comes down to enduring boring stuff in the first year and a half to gain a right to take electives in the last year and a half. I have never heard any bad stuff about late school electives.

Talk to as many lawyers as you can to get a real perspective on what a 3 or 4 year program is likely to be like, day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year. Judge for yourself from all points of view. Though I have never met even one happy lawyer in my 45 years does not mean they don't exist. Every field has a lot of misplaced, unhappy people.

You are young, and don't close doors just yet. You may be a great medical doctor, you may become a millionaire opening up a pizza empire, or you may find late in life you are a great computer programmer.

Essentially, it takes half a century for many, and even longer than that, to truly find your essential, spiritual, ethical calling in life. Whether you call it God's will, the calling of your higher power, or your purpose in the Universe, nothing is as important so there is no sin in taking your time to find who you are and what you should do, or if they should even have any connection, whatsoever.

You have what many on this website don't have, and that's time and no amount of money can replace that. It's your ace in the pocket. Never forget that.

I hope this helps.
 

itcheroni

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2005
550
1
CA
Wow, this thread is still going. Well, I withdrew from my school at the end of the Spring semester. I'm slowly and steadily recuperating. =)
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
Wow, this thread is still going. Well, I withdrew from my school at the end of the Spring semester. I'm slowly and steadily recuperating. =)

I envy you. I am being sent to school via my PT employer so I feel compelled to stay. But my other job, a business I own, is so ridden with tort suits, that I at least want to know product liability law which is 4th trimester next year in January-May, 2009.

If I could choose something safer I would but my partner, my cousin, is a famous skateboarder so you can see where torts (which is 75% percent of the law) fits in. :)
 

rhsgolfer33

macrumors 6502a
Jan 6, 2006
881
1
Talk to as many lawyers as you can to get a real perspective on what a 3 or 4 year program is likely to be like, day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year. Judge for yourself from all points of view. Though I have never met even one happy lawyer in my 45 years does not mean they don't exist. Every field has a lot of misplaced, unhappy people.

This is the single best advice that can be given if you are looking to become an attorney. Talk to attorneys, better yet, go work at a law office while you are doing your undergraduate studies. See what their lives are like, what they do, how much time they spend at work, what kind of life they have outside of work, etc.

Not to deter you, but I'll give you what I perceived in the few years I've spent working at a smallish medium size firm. Being an attorney can be a very very interesting job. It is challenging, you get to think, you get an office, not a cube, you'll probably have your own secretary, as well as a myriad of other assistants that work in various other capacities around the office. There are tons and tons of work related perks; lunches paid for by the firm, great holiday parties, massages, decent health and retirement benefits, pretty good pay, parties and golf tournaments and the like with clients, etc. You'll probably drive a pretty nice car and have a pretty nice house, and you'll probably take great vacations.

Now all that sounds awesome, and it is, but here's the downside, you might never see that house during the day for months at a time. You'll probably work more than you ever imagined was possible. Even at smaller firms the billable hours can be extraordinarily high. The firm I work at doesn't have the super highly competetive billable hour requirement that other firms have, but none-the-less, if you aren't there on Saturday's, you're probably not billing enough or preparing enough for trials, depositions, etc. There are a few attorneys who do really well without the weekend work, but they're definitely the exception, not the rule. The other downside, you have to bill every 6 minutes of your life. 6 minutes spent watching TV or washing your car or cooking dinner, etc becomes $30, not just 6 minutes. Some attorneys get obsessed with this; I know attorneys that higher drivers so they can work in the backseat on the way to court or depos, and these aren't $1000 an hour attorneys, only $350.

Most of the attorneys I know think they're job is fine, but would any of them go back to law school? Probably only 1 or 2 of the 15 or 20 that I know would.

Here is an article that I enjoyed reading about being a happy, ethical lawyer. I suggest you give it a read. (And yeah, its long, but you'd better get used to it now if you want to go to law school :))

So as to my decision, after working at the firm I decided that though I find the law extremely interesting and challenging, I'd much rather be happy, so I've decided to pursue a career as an accounting professor. Professor happens to be pretty much the polar opposite of attorney when it comes to satisfaction (and required work hours) and allows large amounts of freedom to pursue hobbies and family, so hopefully it will workout.
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
Hey lawyers and advanced law students, how do you deal with a "gunner"?

I am not one to start issues with fellow students, as some are and cause huge rifts in the class. But we have this one guy who answers every single Socratic question thrown to the class, and then has the gall to turn around and lecture the whole class, as if he were the Professor.

We are 2nd and 3rd trimester students, and by summer 09, we are going to have to know how to argue in moot court. Less than a year later, we will be doing real court on small municipal and criminal court cases where our performance has an outcome on real people. While we have spent all of our time so far learning the prosecution portion of contracts, torts, and criminal law, now that we are in the defense lawyer portion of all our classes, we are not getting through the material because of this one person who suddenly found confidence and fancies himself a junior Professor.

What is the best thing to do?

Note: Last year we had a class where one, actually very bright student, hogged the class immediately but eventually stopped doing so and now he is a top student and a great mentor to many. These days, he is well liked by all. What do you think happened to him?
 

itcheroni

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2005
550
1
CA
Hey lawyers and advanced law students, how do you deal with a "gunner"?

I am not one to start issues with fellow students, as some are and cause huge rifts in the class. But we have this one guy who answers every single Socratic question thrown to the class, and then has the gall to turn around and lecture the whole class, as if he were the Professor.

We are 2nd and 3rd trimester students, and by summer 09, we are going to have to know how to argue in moot court. Less than a year later, we will be doing real court on small municipal and criminal court cases where our performance has an outcome on real people. While we have spent all of our time so far learning the prosecution portion of contracts, torts, and criminal law, now that we are in the defense lawyer portion of all our classes, we are not getting through the material because of this one person who suddenly found confidence and fancies himself a junior Professor.

What is the best thing to do?

Note: Last year we had a class where one, actually very bright student, hogged the class immediately but eventually stopped doing so and now he is a top student and a great mentor to many. These days, he is well liked by all. What do you think happened to him?

I usually just ignored those people. They seem to be everywhere in law school.
 

itcheroni

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2005
550
1
CA
Wow this thread is extremely depressing to read :(

I'm in Grade 11 right now and essentially, this is the last year I have left before I have to make my vital career choices.

In the 8th grade I was pretty sure I wanted to be a programmer, until I took a programming course in high school, and realized that it was not the career for me.

I then went on wanting to become a doctor. That crashed and burned very quickly, as I realized that I have little/to no interest in science (especially biology).

I'm taking Law right now, and hands-down, it's the best course I've ever taken in my entire school career.
It's fascinating, exciting, analytical and at the end of the day leaves me with the words, "WOW!" Implanted inside my head.

I was 100% sure that I wanted to become a lawyer, but now...this is just...wow.

I'm not sure if the American Law education system is that same as Canada's, but if it is. It certainly seems like I'll be heading into a life of very little happiness.

Is it really that bad everyone?

Should I jump onto another track, before I get hit by the reality train?

You're only in 11th grade. I also thought I had to choose a career at that time too but here I am 10 years later and still unsure of my ultimate life goals.

The problem is law is not that it's not interesting to study-the problem is the entire legal culture
 

airjuggernaut

macrumors 6502a
Oct 16, 2007
535
0
Thanks guys.

Great advice.

I guess I'll continue on my path of wanting to become a lawyer.

It will be tough, but I guess it's something I'll have to push through.

And at this point, after getting my Mid-Term marks for Science...I think it's all that I have left....

:(

But I do have a few questions though...

Are all of you guys criminal lawyers?
Are other types of specialization in law less demanding, or less soul-draining?

Also

How come all of you lawyers continued to go through Law School even when it was so harsh?
Couldn't you guys just drop out and do something else with your undergrads?

And Finally.

What would you all suggest I do as an undergrad?
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
Thanks guys.

Great advice.

I guess I'll continue on my path of wanting to become a lawyer.

It will be tough, but I guess it's something I'll have to push through.

And at this point, after getting my Mid-Term marks for Science...I think it's all that I have left....

:(

But I do have a few questions though...

Are all of you guys criminal lawyers?
Are other types of specialization in law less demanding, or less soul-draining?

Also

How come all of you lawyers continued to go through Law School even when it was so harsh?
Couldn't you guys just drop out and do something else with your undergrads?

And Finally.

What would you all suggest I do as an undergrad?

I would say PM itcheroni. He knows the field more than us law students.

Too many people, if not most that I have met in my life (I'm in my mid-40s), went to law school because they lacked the math/accounting skills to make it in MBA school or the science/biology skills to make it into medical/dental/pharmacy school. Law school should NEVER be entered because you don't think you can cut it as an MBA, MD, or Pharmacist.

While the intellectual vigor of law school is far less than MBA school, from my experiences and point of view, the all out backbiting, pettiness, and hours of memorizing useless information for tests on areas of law no longer used (ie- 19the century British common law, outdated early American statues) can drive any person crazy. All first year students need it as a foundation to learn real modern law in 2nd and 3rd years. It's what makes law school brutally hard from day one. If for a second I thought anything I was learning in law school would be useful, I would be happy but every attorney I have ever met, including professors in private conversations, let me know law school, and the bar, are useless and arduous tasks one has to endure in order to enter a field that has nothing to do with either.

I have seen fields of study where the classroom and the boardroom were different, but no professional I have ever talked to says it's more disconnected that American law. Four years of college, Three years of law school, and at least a decade to learn enough to really practice it outside of being a glorified legal secretary and paralegal (who will come out of their schools knowing far more about real law than you will).
 

itcheroni

macrumors 6502a
Sep 23, 2005
550
1
CA
Thanks guys.

Great advice.

I guess I'll continue on my path of wanting to become a lawyer.

It will be tough, but I guess it's something I'll have to push through.

And at this point, after getting my Mid-Term marks for Science...I think it's all that I have left....

:(

But I do have a few questions though...

Are all of you guys criminal lawyers?
Are other types of specialization in law less demanding, or less soul-draining?

Also

How come all of you lawyers continued to go through Law School even when it was so harsh?
Couldn't you guys just drop out and do something else with your undergrads?

And Finally.

What would you all suggest I do as an undergrad?

What makes you think everyone here practices/studies criminal law? What we're saying applies to almost every kind of law, as long as you practice law.

Learn to write in undergrad. Maybe take some philosophy, charting out if/then scenarios.

Oh, and why to people keep going in law school? Once you begin law school, even with your first test prep class for the LSAT, you dig yourself into a hole. You paid $1500 for an LSAT class and the test itself, you're going to apply. And when you pay about $1000 applying to a dozen or more schools, you then choose a school to attend. You don't realize how much you hate it until the middle of the second semester-after you made your second semester payment, which will probably put you at $34,000 in tuition so far. You always feel like you have to finish or else all that money and effort will be wasted. I left after my second year, so I know the cycle well. I just realized that I would never, ever be happy again if I "followed through," and that I might even commit suicide someday if I didn't extricate myself from that lifestyle and culture.
 

ravenvii

macrumors 604
Original poster
Mar 17, 2004
7,585
492
Melenkurion Skyweir
Wow, this thread is still going. Well, I withdrew from my school at the end of the Spring semester. I'm slowly and steadily recuperating. =)

****, how I wish I am you.

I usually just ignored those people. They seem to be everywhere in law school.

Ditto. I barely pay attention in class anyways.

So, anyone else took the MPRE today? I have a feeling I didn't pass. Hell, it was only $60, I'll retake it if I didn't pass.

I'm still hating law school, and not even sure why I'm not leaving. I sunk all the time and money into it, and don't have the guts to just drop it all and get outta here, I guess.
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
and that I might even commit suicide someday if I didn't extricate myself from that lifestyle and culture.

When I started law school last year, the Dean came in and told us straight up that only Dentists, as a group, had a higher rate of suicide, alcoholism, drug abuse, and suicide. Did I say suicide twice? Well, you will hear that term a lot among people in law.

Other sources, such as the American Bar Association and law school journals, say that lawyers have it worse than Dentists or anybody, far worse.
 

GoCubsGo

macrumors Nehalem
Feb 19, 2005
35,741
153
^^^ Funny, I have a BA in business and a MBA with a concentration on economic crime and I still want to go to law school. WTF is wrong with me?!
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
****, how I wish I am you.



Ditto. I barely pay attention in class anyways.

So, anyone else took the MPRE today? I have a feeling I didn't pass. Hell, it was only $60, I'll retake it if I didn't pass.

I'm still hating law school, and not even sure why I'm not leaving. I sunk all the time and money into it, and don't have the guts to just drop it all and get outta here, I guess.

My god, man, get out while you can. You don't have to do this. You don't have a livelihood banking on it. Let me explain:

I have to study law in order to get a loan to build my business, skateboards, which includes a lot of product liability as I am sure you know. I don't have to pass the par per se, but I have to have a JD if I am to get a grant/loan for my small business which is hard to build in these economic times. I sponsor a world class skater and I just can't walk away since he's also related to me. To get any loan, banks or organizations who loan money, make it so hard to get anything for small business. They won't give me a loan if I am not a millionaire or a JD if it has anything to do with skateboards and the professional tour such as Mountain Dew or Zumiez.

Banks and government are tight. One person I heard on the radio makes more money per year than her house she wants is worth, but the securities crash ended her nest egg. She has an 800 credit score and can't even get a loan for for the house. Her husband also makes crazy money, too and the banks said, "no loan". It's like you have to be a two term President to get a job to be a Mayor of a small town. The economy sucks.
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
^^^ Funny, I have a BA in business and a MBA with a concentration on economic crime and I still want to go to law school. WTF is wrong with me?!

jeez, you are set.

Look at salary surveys with someone with your background, and I mean median salary, and compare it against that of a lawyer. You trump their butt. If it's not money, which your background can get you plenty of, then it must mean you love the law.

If law is anything you gleaned from novels, movies, or tv shows, then I guarantee you will absolutely hate law school. If fairness is anything you are concerned with, then you will hate law school. But I am only 3rd trimester, or a 1L, but ask itcheroni, a 3L, or anybody who is an attorney, what they think.

For anybody coming into this thread late, I recommend, "The destruction of young lawyers, beyond one L" by Douglas Litowitz. Short book, but very vital.
 

GoCubsGo

macrumors Nehalem
Feb 19, 2005
35,741
153
jeez, you are set.

Look at salary surveys with someone with your background, and I mean median salary, and compare it against that of a lawyer. You trump their butt. If it's not money, which your background can get you plenty of, then it must mean you love the law.

If law is anything you gleaned from novels, movies, or tv shows, then I guarantee you will absolutely hate law school. If fairness is anything you are concerned with, then you will hate law school. But I am only 3rd trimester, or a 1L, but ask itcheroni, a 3L, or anybody who is an attorney, what they think.

For anybody coming into this thread late, I recommend, "The destruction of young lawyers, beyond one L" by Douglas Litowitz. Short book, but very vital.
It is not that I need it or that it'll serve me at all, it's simply that I love the law. Both degrees were earned knowing that I could earn the same money regardless. I did it for personal enrichment. It's either law school or some school. I need to learn in life ... I'm a natural learner and completely way too curious to not learn.
 

sushi

Moderator emeritus
Jul 19, 2002
15,639
3
キャンプスワ&#
^^^ Funny, I have a BA in business and a MBA with a concentration on economic crime and I still want to go to law school. WTF is wrong with me?!
I think that there is a term for folks like you.

Hint, it starts with an "M". :p

It is not that I need it or that it'll serve me at all, it's simply that I love the law. Both degrees were earned knowing that I could earn the same money regardless. I did it for personal enrichment. It's either law school or some school. I need to learn in life ... I'm a natural learner and completely way too curious to not learn.
Completely understand.

Life is a journey with which one can learn wondrous concepts and ideas. The key is to find the right trail to take.
 

63dot

macrumors 603
Jun 12, 2006
5,269
339
norcal
Completely understand.

Life is a journey with which one can learn wondrous concepts and ideas. The key is to find the right trail to take.

I think learning is a great thing. I have met a former Wall Street lawyer in junior college learning jewelry making for a new career, and a reformed criminal (former hitman) going to college to take to learning a skill for an honest trade. I saw a tv show about a convicted juvenile offender, multiple murderer and leader of a New York street gang in the South Bronx, who did his hard time, learned how to read up to a college level, finished his bachelor's, and is now going for a grad degree. After that, he is going to dedicate his life to cleaning up the very neighborhood that lured him into the pervasive youth gangs that dominate the South Bronx.

Education helps everybody and whether you have a doctorate, but want to learn something at the junior college, or are a convicted felon that just got out who wants to make a new start in life, college and learning is a God send.
 
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