Lawsuit Against Apple's Faulty Butterfly Keyboards Moves Forward

[Peperino]

How many were impacted? Not enough for Apple to stop selling it and take 4 years to change it? There are probably close to 75M Macs with butterfly keyboards.

Get a grip. Defective is a strong word and requires proof. You have none.

You see the facts like Ray Charles...! LOL...

There is more than enough proof. You are the only one that do not want to see the actual problems.
1- Apple repair program even for the more recent updated Macbook pro released in early 2019.Why? is it because of the great Apple quality??
2- The new 16MBP went back to an old keyboard design? WHY?? Because the butterfly was so succcesful?
3- Not a single trusted reviewers gave a positive review about the current 2016+ MBP.
4- You keep providing anectodal notes and suppositions. Not a single fact whatsoever
5- I trust more the opinion of a well established computer tech/repairman than you.

As everybody can clearly see, quality control has become pathetic at Apple.

 

[throAU]

As everybody can clearly see, quality control has become pathetic at Apple.

I think this is undeniable.

From software (iOS 13 in particular was released way before it was properly tested), to the keyboard issues, to the thermal throttling across the board, it is clear that Apple has a severe lack of real world testing prior to release.

I'm not sure what happened to Apple's QA, or if Steve himself was the barometer for whether or not something is ready (and he's no longer around and things have gradually slipped), but this is something Apple *really* need to focus on moving forward.

You simply can't charge the prices they are charging for a supposedly "premium" computing experience and then have the level of hardware and software issues that have been presented for the past 3-5 years.

Many people use these devices for real work, and i don't care at all whether or not i can get a free repair (though of course free is better than paying for it) if i am without use of my device for days at a time (and thus unable to work), when my charge out rate for 1-2 days could pay for a new machine. The loss of income from failed hardware is a real thing.

I used to buy apple and gladly pay more due to the better quality materials, more pleasant to use keyboards, trackpads, etc.

Now, it seems that the prices have been jacked up, yet i can now get something as good or better quality in terms of materials, etc. in a PC at an equivalent or lower price - with better reliability and repairability.

Hopefully the new Mac Pro and Macbook Pro 16 are at least a half step in the right direction. Improved design... but still significantly over-priced.

 

[seadragon]

I think it’s pretty obvious that Apple made attempts to revise the Butterfly (like adding the silicon membrane) over the past 4 years, but to no avail and then gave up on it. To the guy touting the fact they didn’t pull it right away, well of course they didn’t. Short of a safety related issue, that would never happen. Yes, they still sell them but only until the next models are released most likely.

They probably did a cost analysis and decided it is cheaper to offer keyboard replacements via the special warranty vs redesigning the laptops with the scissor switch keyboard, especially all models at once. Plus, it doesn’t look as bad on them if they utilize the normal refresh cycle to get rid of the Butterflies. They tried the design and it simply didn‘t work out.

As to how many are affected, I have no idea. Nobody but Apple has those numbers and asking people here for them is a rhetorical question. But there’s obviously enough and the potential for more to warrant a special repair campaign. Personally, I think they should offer an even longer warranty period for those that own the machines.

Jeff Benjamin of 9to5 Mac says it best in this review. And he is not an Apple hater by any stretch.

 

[icanhazmac]

If the keyboard were a complete cluster, it would have been gone 3 years ago.

Nice, now you have moved on from saying "if it was defective" to "if it was a complete cluster", way to move the goal posts as your argument falls apart.

Apple knows the keyboard is defective, hence the Keyboard Service Program which is a 4 year bottomless offer to replace one defective part with another.

Can't wait to see what silliness you have for us next #getthepopcornout

 

[LordVic]

I think it’s pretty obvious that Apple made attempts to revise the Butterfly (like adding the silicon membrane) over the past 4 years, but to no avail and then gave up on it. To the guy touting the fact they didn’t pull it right away, well of course they didn’t. Short of a safety related issue, that would never happen. Yes, they still sell them but only until the next models are released most likely.

They probably did a cost analysis and decided it is cheaper to offer keyboard replacements via the special warranty vs redesigning the laptops with the scissor switch keyboard, especially all models at once. Plus, it doesn’t look as bad on them if they utilize the normal refresh cycle to get rid of the Butterflies. They tried the design and it simply didn‘t work out.

Personally, I think they should offer an even longer warranty period for those that own the machines.

Jeff Benjamin of 9to5 Mac says it best in this review. And he is not an Apple hater by any stretch.

While I agree that it's likely how they handled it, doing cost analysis to determine that scrapping and tossing away existing supply chain was more costly.

But at the same time, They then continued, knowingly, to provide a product with a known manufacturing defect just to "save costs" for themselves. A company that already has one of the richest margins in the laptop industry. A company that has billions of profits every quarter.

They also continued selling that for 4 years, with the knowledge that they will likely fail. Even with a warranty added explecity for the keyboards, it still a known failure that is likely to happen with these devices. Once those warranties wear out in 3-4 years, the Laptop becomes ridiculously expensive to repair, and in addition, will likely be the cause of buying new laptops.

continuing to sell a defective design to save a few bucks, especially when you know it will drive further business in 3-5 years is extremely consumer hostile. it SHOULD IMHO be illegal.
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Cook is a genius in supply chain management. If the keyboard were a complete cluster, it would have been gone 3 years ago.

Tim Cook has also evidenced a history of not changing things that cost Apple profit margins even if those things are detrimental to the user experience.

Avarice.

 

[seadragon]

While I agree that it's likely how they handled it, doing cost analysis to determine that scrapping and tossing away existing supply chain was more costly.

But at the same time, They then continued, knowingly, to provide a product with a known manufacturing defect just to "save costs" for themselves. A company that already has one of the richest margins in the laptop industry. A company that has billions of profits every quarter.

They also continued selling that for 4 years, with the knowledge that they will likely fail. Even with a warranty added explecity for the keyboards, it still a known failure that is likely to happen with these devices. Once those warranties wear out in 3-4 years, the Laptop becomes ridiculously expensive to repair, and in addition, will likely be the cause of buying new laptops.

continuing to sell a defective design to save a few bucks, especially when you know it will drive further business in 3-5 years is extremely consumer hostile. it SHOULD IMHO be illegal.
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Tim Cook has also evidenced a history of not changing things that cost Apple profit margins even if those things are detrimental to the user experience.

Avarice.

Yes, don’t get me wrong. I don’t agree with how this was handled and I would not be happy if I owned one of these machines with keyboard issues. I wish in this case that they didn’t wait a full 4 years to abandon the Butterfly. Even though there is a warranty, its still a hassle to be without the machine as it gets repaired.

Personally, I‘ve held off buying a MBP because of this keyboard situation. I’m hoping to pick up the 16” model in a couple of months.

 

[FlyingDutch]

I am sure the numbers are high. I mean, you get an extended warranty on the butterfly keyboards right out of the box, as opposed to the 16 inch, where you just get the one year warranty.

Would you be okay if he said "I'll bet the internal numbers are much, much higher than 2%"?

Because I think that is what he was saying. Nobody but Apple "knows" the numbers, but Apple was clearly disturbed enough by whatever they saw to offer a bananas warranty and re-engineer the keyboard.

You cant define “high”.
Because even the 2% figure would means high numbers.
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I didn't read that as 100 people milling around in the store right then waiting for replacements, rather that the queue (of butterfly-keyboard-related support incidents) that had to be worked through between when he brought his machine in, and when he got it back, was in the neighborhood of 100 laptops.

Nobody in an Apple store would say something like that. And the Genius “behind the desk” doesn’t even know how many defective products are in the queue and how many of those are “butterfly keyboard related”.
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It doesn't take but an easy search much further than this forum over run with apologists to see plenty of websites with a more unbiased opinion about this keyboard. Search change.org and you'll find numerous petitions signed by thousands. Apple designed a keyboard with too tight of a tolerance for something that is primarily mechanical. Hence, why they left this design behind after trying numerous times with different revisions to make it more reliable. This in of itself is a pretty damning proof. Especially, when you see every model after this being fitted with the scissor-switches again. However, your ridiculous argument is that it's fine. Someone who knows jack squat about R&D, tooling, and overall manufacturing of these. Many, many millions flushed on a keyboard that lasted 4-5 years and wasn't improved but abandoned. Is that your proof of quality and this only affects a small number?

I never said “small numbers”. Actually I never spoke about numbers at all.
I said that even if the defective units were below 5% of the sold units, the numbers would be high, and a few thousands vocal complainers would be noticed much more than millions of happy customers.
And even that 5% could be enough for Apple to decide to switch back to the scissor mechanism.
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A 10% failure rate is absolutely a disaster. I suspect, based on that opinion alone, that you haven’t spent a day working for a manufacturing company.

No one knows the failure rate, except Apple.
And THE ONLY research based on actual numbers (done by AppleInsider) showed that less than 10% OF ALL DEFECTIVE MACBOOKS were related to the keyboard.
Quite different.

You opinion about me is baseless and useless. I simply don’t care.
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If 5% of MacBooks keyboards are failing that a huge problem.

Yes Apple ID replacing keyboards that fail (multiple times if necessary) for the next 4 years.

What happens after that time frame. Sorry your out of luck. Take your $2500 laptop and go away or give us $500 for repair?
Should be a life time repair or replace after mult repairs with a new MacBook.

Yes, even 5% would be an huge number.

regarding the problem after 4 years, well, that could be applied to any single notebook sold.
After 4 years a notebook could fail in many many components, not just a keyboard.

 

[PostApple2016BrainWash]

Apple needs to cease and scrap the design debacle on product responsible by Jony Ive from 2015-2019

 

[throAU]

While I agree that it's likely how they handled it, doing cost analysis to determine that scrapping and tossing away existing supply chain was more costly.

Well maybe it would not have been more costly if they didn't shift their entire macbook lineup to the broken design even after reports were coming in that it was broken.

If they had have done ANY real world testing on this stuff, they would have found the issue. If they had used the macbook 12" ONLY as the test model for a year or so they would have identified the issue.

But no, they doubled down on it and shifted their entire lineup to it, even while reports continued to roll in that it was defective.

Personally, I‘ve held off buying a MBP because of this keyboard situation. I’m hoping to pick up the 16” model in a couple of months.

Me too. But until there's a reasonably priced 13" retina machine available with it, macbooks for me are a solid NO BUY.

And the last machine that fitted that description was the 2015 machine i am currently typing this on.

If this machine dies in the interim, my hand will be forced elsewhere. I've already spent the past 2 years shifting to non-mac, cross-platform applications in preparation for this.

 

[V_Man]

The facts speaks the truth. Not me. You can see not just here but everywhere that everybody is having major problems with the keyboard.

Once again, you talk complete factless nonsense.
You are generalizing all the products. We are only talking here about the MACBOOK PROS.
NO ONE is talking about the entire Apple line of products.

As always, you distort the evidence with ZERO actual facts.
Hey but it seems that you know more than Apple itself...

Apple knew about the major problems with the keyboards for years.
When there is a problem with food, they actually take it out of the shelves right away. Why Apple knowingly about all these problems is actually still selling them TODAY!
That in my view is plain fraud, since they knew about it long time ago and still they decide to sell you a faulty product.

Everybody knows that the 2016-19 were the worse products Apple ever designed.
Not a single good review (not actually paid reviews).
It seems that Cook standards about quality and innovation are not the same as Jobs.

Hopefully the lawsuits will reveal more information (if Apple does not settle).

I really think he’s afraid this might cause his stocks to lose money. He is always one of the first to claim it’s minor. No worries. Apple will take care of you.
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Cook is a genius in supply chain management. If the keyboard were a complete cluster, it would have been gone 3 years ago.

Or Apple wasn’t willing to put millions of unused keyboards in the trash. So they wrapped the keys internals in a condom. And it still was unreliable.

It’s ok to admit Apple made a mistake. It’s not the first and won’t be the last. We all know that Apple will never react to a problem until it gains some legs in the media. Then it’s only grudgingly. Then finally comes the repair program or software patch to fix it.

 

[Andrea Zehnder]

I had mine replaced twice. The first time they gave me the run around stating, "I've never heard of this problem." I found that quite interesting since, at the time, there was a youtube video parody of the problem. I trusted Apple and the folks that work there. I could not believe the Apple Genius Bar employees, who by this time KNEW of the faulty butterfly keyboard situation, were being hush-hush about it. These Genius Bar folks are aware of EVERYTHING; they know all of the faulty parts and what's going on. So disappointed in the Genius Bar folks lying to my face!

The second time it happened, they said they'd repair it because the first repair was still under warranty. However, both times they threatened that because I did not have Apple Care, I would have to pay the $700 price tag for the repair. What is this, a script they memorize? The first time I brought my MBPro in and was told it would cost me $700, I replied in a calm but stern voice, “If you are going to charge me $700 for what I KNOW is a problem with YOUR keyboard, I will smash this computer on your floor and walk out.” The Apple employee promptly excused himself and a manager showed up. (I guess I should not have threatened to have a temper tantrum.) While they attempted to "fix" my keyboard, I went (in the middle of the afternoon) to grab a drink. I typically do not drink mid-day on a workday like that, but that experience was stressful. I have never threatened to do anything like that before! These Apple Genius employees were gaslighting me! When I sat at the mall restaurant and ordered a glass of wine, the bartender said he often serves drinks to pi55ed off Apple customers who are waiting for their expensive repairs. I was surprised, but then not so much. Apple fell from the tree that day.

Since then, my keys get stuck periodically, even after these two new keyboards. However, I just wait a while and in a few hours, they tend to work again. I really like the low profile keys, but I do not like the crap that comes with them.

I have a 2016 Mac Book Air and as of today, Apple is willing to give me a $600 trade-in value for it. I think it’s time for a new Mac.

 

[sirozha]

I had mine replaced twice. The first time they gave me the run around stating, "I've never heard of this problem." I found that quite interesting since, at the time, there was a youtube video parody of the problem. I trusted Apple and the folks that work there. I could not believe the Apple Genius Bar employees, who by this time KNEW of the faulty butterfly keyboard situation, were being hush-hush about it. These Genius Bar folks are aware of EVERYTHING; they know all of the faulty parts and what's going on. So disappointed in the Genius Bar folks lying to my face!

The second time it happened, they said they'd repair it because the first repair was still under warranty. However, both times they threatened that because I did not have Apple Care, I would have to pay the $700 price tag for the repair. What is this, a script they memorize? The first time I brought my MBPro in and was told it would cost me $700, I replied in a calm but stern voice, “If you are going to charge me $700 for what I KNOW is a problem with YOUR keyboard, I will smash this computer on your floor and walk out.” The Apple employee promptly excused himself and a manager showed up. (I guess I should not have threatened to have a temper tantrum.) While they attempted to "fix" my keyboard, I went (in the middle of the afternoon) to grab a drink. I typically do not drink mid-day on a workday like that, but that experience was stressful. I have never threatened to do anything like that before! These Apple Genius employees were gaslighting me! When I sat at the mall restaurant and ordered a glass of wine, the bartender said he often serves drinks to pi55ed off Apple customers who are waiting for their expensive repairs. I was surprised, but then not so much. Apple fell from the tree that day.

Since then, my keys get stuck periodically, even after these two new keyboards. However, I just wait a while and in a few hours, they tend to work again. I really like the low profile keys, but I do not like the crap that comes with them.

I have a 2016 Mac Book Air and as of today, Apple is willing to give me a $600 trade-in value for it. I think it’s time for a new Mac.

Have you ever worked in a corporate environment? You do and say what they tell you to do and say or they fire you. You expect honesty from any corporation or corporate employees?

 

[1rottenapple]

Have you ever worked in a corporate environment? You do and say what they tell you to do and say or they fire you. You expect honesty from any corporation or corporate employees?

Agreed. They’ll get fired fir sure. You have to tow the line as they say.

 

[chucker23n1]

Agreed. They’ll get fired fir sure. You have to tow the line as they say.

toe

 

[1rottenapple]

toe

Really lol

 

[chucker23n1]

Really lol

Yes lol