Lawsuit Against Apple's Faulty Butterfly Keyboards Moves Forward

Baymowe335

macrumors 603
Oct 6, 2017
5,690
10,132
Not true.

I had a home that was completely re-plumbed because of faulty polybutylene piping and installation. The faulty pipe, every last bit of it, was ripped out, replaced with copper, drywall repaired and painted. In addition, I was reimbursed for repairs and damages suffered from two previous leaks. Several thousand dollars worth of work even in mid '90's dollars. All done at the expense of the pipe manufactures because of a massive class action lawsuit. I didn't have to pay one cent to have the house put in proper order.

That being said, I agree not much ever comes of these types lawsuits. But ripping a house apart to replace the all the plumbing and having a sticky keyboard are few orders of magnitude apart.
Your anecdotal story doesn’t change the results of class action suits against corporate America. They are ineffective and wasteful.
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Well having 4 years of laptop keyboards under a repair program speaks for itself. Defective design that Apple is now trying to save face on.
That’s taking care of customers who may have issues. They still sell the butterfly keyboard and did for 4 years despite all the crying here.

Defective designs have to be addressed comprehensively and far more quickly.
 

[AUT] Thomas

macrumors 6502
Mar 13, 2016
397
349
Graz [Austria]
Apple really messed this up... that keyboard in combination with the bad repairability of the macbooks is going to cost Apple a fortune over the next few years as more and more of the old macbooks will suffer from failure. And with the 16" going back to scissor type keyboard they basically admit that the butterfly keyboard isn't working.
Apple should consider retrofitting scissor type on all failed butterfly keyboards...
 
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icanhazmac

macrumors member
Apr 11, 2018
66
105
Defective designs have to be addressed comprehensively and far more quickly.
No, defective designs are dealt with after careful consideration of cost vs liability, both in dollars and press. Apple obviously felt that the cost of the Keyboard Service Program was less that retooling their laptops and keyboards any faster than they did.

They still sell the butterfly keyboard and did for 4 years despite all the crying here.
Why do you feel the need to reduce people's stories of keyboard failures to "crying"? Most people in this thread have been polite and measured. Apple is only still selling the butterfly keyboards because they feel the cost of replacing them is less than an accelerated product redesign. When the 14" MBP replaces the 13" it will most likely have the magic keyboard and when they redesign the Macbook/Air series they probably will too.

Bottom line is that Apple knows the butterfly is a design that yields greater than normal failure rates but not so great that they feel the need to rush a redesign, its obvious, why try so hard to deny it, Apple didn't, they acknowledged it.
 

seadragon

Contributor
Mar 10, 2009
1,473
1,605
No, defective designs are dealt with after careful consideration of cost vs liability, both in dollars and press. Apple obviously felt that the cost of the Keyboard Service Program was less that retooling their laptops and keyboards any faster than they did.



Why do you feel the need to reduce people's stories of keyboard failures to "crying"? Most people in this thread have been polite and measured. Apple is only still selling the butterfly keyboards because they feel the cost of replacing them is less than an accelerated product redesign. When the 14" MBP replaces the 13" it will most likely have the magic keyboard and when they redesign the Macbook/Air series they probably will too.

Bottom line is that Apple knows the butterfly is a design that yields greater than normal failure rates but not so great that they feel the need to rush a redesign, its obvious, why try so hard to deny it, Apple didn't, they acknowledged it.
Well said and spot on.
 
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bryce13950

macrumors newbie
Jun 13, 2016
19
20
Except that almost everyone who has one loves them and has had no problems with them. I think it would make a better story on social influencing, that actually defective design.

I'd love just one of these "OMG there are so bad" types to come up with any statistics whatsoever. Wouldn't the after market warranty providers have a number? Certainly if they are repairing them, they must no how many
Apple is the one who are the holders of those statistics, and there is no way they are going to release those numbers. The after market warranty providers probably don't have reliable numbers, and even if they did they would be under a strong NDA on whether or not they can release them. Outside of that someone has done an independent survey in which he found a failure rate of 30% within a workplace environment. There is another much less scientific survey that found 50%. Considering that a large amount of people who own MacBooks probably aren't power users, they then likely push down the overall failure rate. Considering that, all the press they have received, and Apples own acknowledgement of the problem, it is probably safe to assume that the overall failure rate is hovering somewhere between 20-25%. Personally, I do not know a single person who owns a butterfly keyboard who has not had an issue. I am personally on my third keyboard.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/A-workplace-study-shows-MacBook-keyboard-failure-rate-of-30-percent.415595.0.html
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/nearly-half-of-the-third-gen-apple-butterfly-keyboards-at-basecamp-have-failed/
 
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V_Man

macrumors 6502
Nov 23, 2019
276
313
Your anecdotal story doesn’t change the results of class action suits against corporate America. They are ineffective and wasteful.
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That’s taking care of customers who may have issues. They still sell the butterfly keyboard and did for 4 years despite all the crying here.

Defective designs have to be addressed comprehensively and far more quickly.
The fact that they still sell the BF KB is terrible. They are selling a defective design and just replacing the a broken one with another defective one.

I love my Apple toys. i just expect more from Apple. sometimes admitting your wrong and Just fixing the problem is the way to go. Not just answering to shareholders.

Apple preaches morality and empathy yet always place their financial first. Even if that means bowing down to their Chinese overlords.
 

x-evil-x

macrumors 601
Jul 13, 2008
4,662
2,402
I work for a Corp with 35k headcount. I was told by our main onsite IT that company wide we had been experiencing a 17% unit failure rate due to the keyboard. Because of that the company banned any Apple laptop purchases. That was about 2 years ago I believe. So there’s my stats. Believe it or not, that’s on you, but we can’t buy Mac laptops anymore.
What year where the machines? 2016/2017?
 
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Peperino

macrumors 6502a
Nov 2, 2016
824
1,468
It wouldn't be so bad if it was easily replaceable but it's riveted down which wreaks of engineering for obsolescence.
I agree, but it is not jsut the keyboard design. IT is the entire MBP that has all soldered components.
This sadly shows how little Apple cared in the past 3 years for innovating in the entire computer line up.
Tim Cook only cares about making money.
 

MacBH928

macrumors 68040
May 17, 2008
3,612
1,259
I didn't know you can sue companies for releasing unreliable hardware. Its actually a business model called "planned obsolescence". When the guarantee period is over, you are on your own. The guarantee period is actually the company telling you "We didn't make it to last that long".

Lets say Apple guarantee is 5 years, its already been 3 for the 2016 models. If Apple keeps their promise then by 2024 the last of the MBP would be supported then you are on your own.

I never heard anyone taking BMW to court for releasing unreliable cars. They just get the reputation that they are a "low quality car manufacturer" and its your choice to buy from them. This is whats happening to Apple, they are the company that builds faulty laptops. Its your choice to buy from them. Personally, I will never buy a "work" laptop from Apple ever again (unless they go back to their values).
 

Emtbill

macrumors member
Nov 21, 2018
64
25
Mass
Am I the minority who doesn’t mind the butterfly keyboard? I haven’t had any problems with it. I do, however, like Apple’s magic keyboard more because of its key travel and satisfying click... I’m looking forward to when Apple introduces the scissor keyboard on the smaller MacBook Pro.
Same here, haven't seen any issues and I like it.
 

BJonson

macrumors 6502a
Aug 26, 2010
833
113
I expect nothing less than free lifetime repairs for this POS keyboard or replace it with a new design.
 
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Tech198

macrumors G5
Mar 21, 2011
14,284
1,727
Australia, Perth
So, the lawsuit is hinting on replacements on something Apple didn't come out with till "later on" ? I don't think scissor design were available till 2019.
 

JuanGuapo

macrumors 6502a
May 21, 2009
652
239
Los Angeles, CA
I like Apple but as someone who was directly affected by this issue multiple times, I think the onus is on Apple to make it right--not the lawyers. I see a few options...

Good:
  • A 5 year repair/replacement program (4 is OK but not great)
  • A loaner program if the repair will take longer than 48 hours.
  • Two (2) or more documented repairs qualify for a complete/new replacement.
  • A buy-back program for people who are affected at least twice (2) with at-least 80% of the original value. --for people who wish to get a refund over a replacement.

Better:
  • An 8 year repair/replacement program.
  • A buy-back program for people who are affected at least twice (2) with at-least 90% of the original value. --for people who wish to get a refund over a replacement.
  • Documented repairs longer than 48 hours automatically are replaced with a complete/new replacement.

Best:
  • A 10 year repair/replacement program.
  • A buy-back program for people affected with no less than 100% of the original value for those affected at least twice (2). --for people who wish to get a refund over a replacement.
  • Twenty-four (24) hour turnaround time for all keyboard replacements (M-F); immediate/full product replacement if longer.
 

IG88

macrumors 6502a
Nov 4, 2016
593
635
I don't think anyone can defend these keyboards. I mean, maybe someone can say "well, for me, no issues.." but in general?

Not defensible. Unless someone thinks a company having a 4 or 5 year warranty on a keyboard right out of the box is defensible.
I feel the same way, yet I've seen a rather vocal contingent on this forum attempt to defend it.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that version 3 of the butterfly design basically corrected any issues. It then became an matter of preference and not functionality.
If that's true, why did the keyboard immediately launch with a 4 year warranty?
 

IG88

macrumors 6502a
Nov 4, 2016
593
635
Fifteen or twenty years from now there's likely to be an enlightening chapter in a book about what the arguments and/or personality quirks were that kept this thing shipping in new machines for so long.
I hope the book gives a shoutout to all of the people on Macrumors that have defended the ever living **** out of the butterfly kb.
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Seems more like a made up issue by a few loud influencers, maybe even paid influencers, than a real one.
So Apple decided to warranty the butterfly keyboards for 4 years because.....they also believe it's an imaginary problem like you do?
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there are not a lot in any measurable way,
Does Apple have a history of randomly warrantying a part of their computers where the scope of a problem is
not a lot in any measurable way,
 
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IG88

macrumors 6502a
Nov 4, 2016
593
635
The keyboard in my 2018 MacBook Pro has been replaced once. Thankfully under warranty, but the next time which is probably inevitable it will be out of pocket. Hoping this lawsuit results in a recall.
Your keyboard is under warranty for 4 years from date of purchase.

https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks
The program covers eligible MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro models for 4 years after the first retail sale of the unit.
 
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bryce13950

macrumors newbie
Jun 13, 2016
19
20
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that version 3 of the butterfly design basically corrected any issues. It then became an matter of preference and not functionality.

So in the eyes of Apple, the issue was resolved...but by then there had been so much bad publicity surrounding the term butterfly keyboard, that Apple did an about face. They had to. Even if there was nothing further to fix. To restore the confidence of millions of potential MacBook Pro buyers moving forward.
I had a 2019 MacBook Pro a couple weeks ago while I was waiting for my 2016 to have it’s keyboard replaced. Within the first week the space bar on the 2019 started sticking.
 
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BigBoy2018

Suspended
Oct 23, 2018
964
1,799
I didn't know you can sue companies for releasing unreliable hardware. Its actually a business model called "planned obsolescence". When the guarantee period is over, you are on your own. The guarantee period is actually the company telling you "We didn't make it to last that long".

Lets say Apple guarantee is 5 years, its already been 3 for the 2016 models. If Apple keeps their promise then by 2024 the last of the MBP would be supported then you are on your own.

I never heard anyone taking BMW to court for releasing unreliable cars. They just get the reputation that they are a "low quality car manufacturer" and its your choice to buy from them. This is whats happening to Apple, they are the company that builds faulty laptops. Its your choice to buy from them. Personally, I will never buy a "work" laptop from Apple ever again (unless they go back to their values).
I think you, and some others on here are misunderstanding the meaning of ‘planned obsolescence’. These badly designed keyboards could fail on day 1, or not until day 1001.

Generally, planned obsolescence is a deliberate calculation by the manufacturer and has a more predictable timespan, i.e. : “.termination of the supply of spare parts, and the use of nondurable materials”.

I would argue that since the failure of the butterfly keyboards is so unpredictable that its a design flaw, pure and simple, and not a deliberate attempt at planned obsolescence.
 

537635

macrumors 6502a
Mar 7, 2009
635
551
Slovenia, EU
What was meant by planned obsolescence was the 4 year repair program.

After 4 years the clock is ticking and all these keyboards will fail eventually. After that nobody will pay out of their pockets for the repair and these laptops are dead.
 
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SpeedyTheSnail

macrumors regular
Sep 22, 2018
199
424
Caprica
I think you, and some others on here are misunderstanding the meaning of ‘planned obsolescence’. These badly designed keyboards could fail on day 1, or not until day 1001.

Generally, planned obsolescence is a deliberate calculation by the manufacturer and has a more predictable timespan, i.e. : “.termination of the supply of spare parts, and the use of nondurable materials”.

I would argue that since the failure of the butterfly keyboards is so unpredictable that its a design flaw, pure and simple, and not a deliberate attempt at planned obsolescence.
It's called random planned obsolescence, it appears to be unplanned obsolescence but it's really planned randomly. It's the best way to get away with it without the planned obsolescence argument coming out.

It's actually quite brilliant, something from the mind of little Timmy while he's fake campaigning about human rights and privacy in advertisements.
 
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mclarenf1

macrumors newbie
Jun 26, 2008
16
5
I had mine replaced THREE TIMES! And the way they do it is to replace the whole bottom of the laptop. It was so frustrating. The last replacement I bought an iMac to use while they repaired and then returned the iMac for a refund.
 
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PC_tech

macrumors member
Jan 17, 2019
95
143
I didn't know you can sue companies for releasing unreliable hardware. Its actually a business model called "planned obsolescence". When the guarantee period is over, you are on your own. The guarantee period is actually the company telling you "We didn't make it to last that long".

Lets say Apple guarantee is 5 years, its already been 3 for the 2016 models. If Apple keeps their promise then by 2024 the last of the MBP would be supported then you are on your own.

I never heard anyone taking BMW to court for releasing unreliable cars. They just get the reputation that they are a "low quality car manufacturer" and its your choice to buy from them. This is whats happening to Apple, they are the company that builds faulty laptops. Its your choice to buy from them. Personally, I will never buy a "work" laptop from Apple ever again (unless they go back to their values).
I’m sure it’s more than that, like people having to have 3 or more repairs for the same exact issue talked about in this article.
 
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