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Leaked EU Document Could Spell Major Changes for App Store, Messages, FaceTime, Browsers, and Siri

Quu said:
That's like saying I should use Windows instead of macOS when we all know full well we love that we can install third party software on our Macs because we prefer that operating system.

I prefer iOS from a UI and usability perspective and I prefer the iPhone from a hardware perspective. To me the locked down walled-garden that Apple has created is just one side of what the iPhone is and it's the only side I'm losing interest in having.


I'm a successful business owner that deals exclusively in the creation and sale of software so actually in this regard I do know what I'm talking about, I probably know more about the underpinnings of iOS than most who will comment in this thread having worked on some of the apps you probably have used over the past 15 years.

I would like platform neutrality to the degree that macOS affords users. You are free to disagree and you are also free to stay within Apples walled garden and never install a third party app store or sideload an app, your phone your choice.
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No if a product is it for you then you should not be able to force the company to design that product for you. I like the Ford Mustang but it’s not four wheel drive. Should I force Ford to make a four wheel drive version? Buy the product that suits your needs. If you want a phone that’s a wall garden then that’s the iPhone but if you want an open operating system then that’s android.

Forcing Apple to change iOS to make it like android with all of its problems and downsides is only hurting people that use iOS. Of course there are a lot of people that really dislike Apple products here and they would love to see that happen. It’s unfortunate to see that level of negativity.
 
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turbineseaplane said:
Fantastic!

I am thrilled to see the EU going big here.

It’s long past time on some of this stuff.
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I just wish they had reined in some of the crazy parts, it makes them look silly when they want to require (for example) third party voice assistants because that will require a fundamental rethink in the way Apps are allowed to communicate on iOS and/or require Apple to build some sort of universal voice assistant API.
 
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Most of the stuff is rather meh to me. I don't use those assistants--don't trust 'em. It would be nice if Apple allowed sideloading, but I ain't gonna die on that hill. But this one is huge...I'd fight for this
MacRumors said:
Earlier versions of the Digital Markets Act set out demands for big tech companies to share metrics with competitors, ensure that all apps are uninstallable, and not preference their own apps and services.
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Gawd the amount of un-uninstallable bloatware (even with root) from Samsung is maddening. I ain't got any use for the Galaxy Store or the standard camera app (I use an app that give me manual control). I want to KonMari my phone. Bloatware does not spark joy; yeet to the street. There are a few Apple apps I want to remove from my wife's iPhone.
 
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russell_314 said:
No if a product is it for you then you should not be able to force the company to design that product for you. I like the Ford Mustang but it’s not four wheel drive. Should I force Ford to make a four wheel drive version? Buy the product that suits your needs. If you want a phone that’s a wall garden then that’s the iPhone but if you want an open operating system then that’s android.

Forcing Apple to change iOS to make it like android with all of its problems and downsides is only hurting people that use iOS. Of course there are a lot of people that really dislike Apple products here and they would love to see that happen. It’s unfortunate to see that level of negativity.
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Again I have to bring up the hugely successful macOS which allows third party stores and sideloading. Weirdly the earth is still here as is the Mac in perfect working order.

Your analogy about Ford is very flawed. The government does mandate cars have seatbelts and companies like Ford fought against those kind of regulations based on all kinds of reasons from cost to design and appearance.

The government of the EU also has laws about how the front bonnets of vehicles are shaped again for public safety. They also have rules about size and weight, emissions, the materials the vehicle can use (for instance the banning of lead based paints).

The car is probably the most regulated consumer product you can purchase with literally thousands of rules that automakers must adhere to and not just for public safety but also for competition reasons.
 
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TheYayAreaLiving 🎗 said:
Apple's legal team is going to be busy in the coming days. I don't understand why the government is always after Apple. I wonder if Apple will put out from all this mess.
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Apple will just market the product that they can sell. It’s not going to hurt Apple at least in the short term. There are a lot of people there are angry at “big tech” and see any negative attack on them somehow a good thing but it’s not always. I’m not exactly happy with everything big tech is doing either but just doing damage for the sake of doing damage isn’t a fix to this problem.
 
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Deguello said:
Third parties imposing requirements on consensual transactions between other parties are less about protecting competition and more about control or favoring certain competitors.

Apple does a lot of annoying things, but at least they aren’t imposed with the force of law.
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Competition is not cutting off Apple's knees so other's can compete with them. This is lowest common denominator, low resolution thinking and never works.

I don't think people really understand the word "competition."
 
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WiseAJ said:
Massive government overreach. Play hardball Apple and threaten to pull out of the EU. They need you more than you need them.
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There is currently no stopwatch on the market fast enough to measure the time from when Tim Cook would say "I think we should pull out of the EU" to the Board/Shareholders firing him.
Heck, firing him might be his best case scenario; they might commit him to an institution.

Pulling out of a market, let alone one the size of the EU, will never be considered a viable strategy.

@Mods, can we ban for this type of response... ;)
 
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Quu said:
Again I have to bring up the hugely successful macOS which allows third party stores and sideloading. Weirdly the earth is still here as is the Mac in perfect working order.

Your analogy about Ford is very flawed. The government does mandate cars have seatbelts and companies like Ford fought against those kind of regulations based on all kinds of reasons from cost to design and appearance.

The government of the EU also has laws about how the front bonnets of vehicles are shaped again for public safety. They also have rules about size and weight, emissions, the materials the vehicle can use (for instance the banning of lead based paints).

The car is probably the most regulated consumer product you can purchase with literally thousands of rules that automakers must adhere to and not just for public safety but also for competition reasons.
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The difference is the average person that uses iOS versus macOS isn’t the same person. macOS is significantly more vulnerable to malware than iOS.
 
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Deguello said:
“Legal” is just a question of what the government chooses to enforce. That doesn’t make it efficient, let alone conducive to competition or morally acceptable. Slavery was “legal.” Whether something is “legal” has little do to with whether it is helpful.

No one has to buy Apple. On Android. Or Ford or Chevy or whatever.
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If you want to discuss morals and being conducive to competition, to me it's immoral and is anti-competitve to allow two companies (Apple and Google) to dictate terms to every mobile software developer and to set one sided terms otherwise they don't get access to the mobile software market. Especially as it relates to Apple, since the only route to getting software to an iPhone user is through the App Store. Google at least allows sideloading.
 
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danakin said:
There is currently no stopwatch on the market fast enough to measure the time from when Tim Cook would say "I think we should pull out of the EU" to the Board/Shareholders firing him.
Heck, firing him might be his best case scenario; they might commit him to an institution.

Pulling out of a market, let alone one the size of the EU, will never be considered a viable strategy.

@Mods, can we ban for this type of response... ;)
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It would hurt Apple but they would not that much. The thing is Apple is a business so they’re going to do whatever it takes to make the most amount of money while trying to sell the product they want. I think money is the top priority though so if the EU said iOS is banned and iPhones had to be loaded with android then the iPhone 14 would be an android phone.
 
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siddavis said:
How about when one of the parties doesn't consent, and the other is the only one that has the power to compel at gunpoint? How's that for power disparity?
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Are we expecting this law to enforced at gunpoint? Pretty sure financial solutions exist that will readily take care of this. Additionally, if Apple doesn't like these new laws, they're free to pull their business from the EU. Pretty sure that mirrors Apple's own position for devs. "If you don't like the App Store's terms, pound sand and develop software somewhere else."
 
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The problem with the overreaching EU laws is that it actually hurts the user in the long run. Apps get built with malicious code, user gets tricked into installing them, complains about Apple.

The other thing that baffles me is Apple created the OS and the EU are expecting it to be a free and open house for anyone to do what they want with. You wouldn’t expect the company that owns a shopping mall to allow other businesses to set up in there for free. Because this is what the expectation is here for software.
 
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vipergts2207 said:
If you want to discuss morals, to me it's immoral to allow two companies (Apple and Google) to dictate terms to every mobile software developer and to set one sided terms otherwise they don't get access to the mobile software market. Especially as it relates to Apple, since the only route to getting software to an iPhone user is through the App Store. Google at least allows sideloading.
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The developers knew Apple’s rules when they wrote the apps. Why isn’t it immoral for developers, let alone governments, to tell the company that develops and supports the hardware and APIs required for their apps even to work how Apple has to operate that environment?
 
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blazerunner said:
LOL!!!!!! This is hilarious, considering its coming from someone who defends a company worth 2+ TRILLION dollars.
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Is there something wrong with a company being worth 2+ TRILLION ???? I don’t see that is a bad thing. I would say that’s a sign that they’re highly successful. ?‍♂️

Maybe governments could take a lesson from how Apple runs their business. The USA government for example is trillions in debt
 
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Quu said:
I'm confused by your signature, you're an old mac user who owned an Apple II+ and have been using them ever since. The Mac would not even exist today if Apple was vetting all the software for that platform. And you clearly know that Macs are not a diseased entity in computing, they are thriving and people are using them for all manner of tasks today, despite their ability to sideload and install third party stores.

Look at the huge success of Steam and what it has done for PC and to a lesser extent Mac gaming. That sort of store would be wonderful to have on iOS.
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I don’t know how many topics and how often it needs to be repeated. Desktop and computers are not the same as a phone. Period.

I have dealt with Mac and windows viruses over the last 30 years. I still deal with it today from family and friends that require my help.
 
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Quu said:
That's like saying I should use Windows instead of macOS when we all know full well we love that we can install third party software on our Macs because we prefer that operating system.
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But, what does that have to do with Apple limiting you on how iOS can have apps installed? They built them for separate purposes. they are not the "same". They may look and operate similarly enough, but they are not.
You can pick Android if you want something more "free to use as you like". If you want iPhone, you know how it works going in.
Quu said:
I prefer iOS from a UI and usability perspective and I prefer the iPhone from a hardware perspective. To me the locked down walled-garden that Apple has created is just one side of what the iPhone is and it's the only side I'm losing interest in having.
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But, that doesn't mean you get to take them down (governments) because of one aspect you don't like. You can choose to not purchase it. You can choose to appeal to Apple for them to allow it or make some other compromise. But, to "Force" them to chance how they make what they make when they freaking made it. No, I don't think that is in anyway fair to anyone else that has chosen to purchase based on how it is working for them.
Quu said:
I'm a successful business owner that deals exclusively in the creation and sale of software so actually in this regard I do know what I'm talking about, I probably know more about the underpinnings of iOS than most who will comment in this thread having worked on some of the apps you probably have used over the past 15 years.
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That's fantastic. Do you ever feel forced to develop for iOS? Anyone forcing you to do so? Could you develop for other devices/Android/macOS/Windows/Console?

Or do you sell to where the customers are?
Quu said:
I would like platform neutrality to the degree that macOS affords users. You are free to disagree and you are also free to stay within Apples walled garden and never install a third party app store or sideload an app, your phone your choice.
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Not by the DMA rules. Those choices are removed. All must comply to this BS. Even if you don't want to use 3rd party anythings. The system must be changed to allow it regardless. Which leaves the possibly (even if it is small) of having your favorite app installed outside the AppStore, or your devices security compromised in ways it was simply not possible before.

Not to mention the work Apple has to put in (at cost) to make all this work. It's not free, as you would very well know because you sell/make software.
 
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