Leaked EU Document Could Spell Major Changes for App Store, Messages, FaceTime, Browsers, and Siri

[d686546s]

I am not an expert in EU law. However, from what I have been able to understand, The EU will designate Gatekeepers. Those who have been designated as Gatekeepers can contest that. That is the only thing that they can contest. Also, this is a bill on which the member states will vote separately, I think.

That's a challenge to the application of the DSA once it is in force, but what I have been trying to tell you is that there are of course ways to challenge the legality of the DSA/DMA itself. Whether this would be a successful challenge is an entirely different story.

See here for a background briefing by the European Parliament: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2019/642282/EPRS_BRI(2019)642282_EN.pdf

 

[PrecisionGem]

How much do you pay for health insurance? What about rent? What about …

How much do you pay in taxes?

 

[PrecisionGem]

Yes the EU is cheaper overall, I said it before.

Even more if you compare big metro areas. I think the largest in the EU are Paris, Madrid and Berlin, and those are worlds apart from NY or the Bay Area. Not that they’re cheap, but still.

I work for a large international company based in Sweden. I would often travel for meetings to France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark. People I would meet with at the company who had comparable jobs to mine (engineering) would live in an apartment about the size of my living room. Would have one small car, and a bike. I have 3 cars. It seemed I had way more money left over after taxes and living expenses, even after the company deducted some money each month towards my health insurance. Many times they would ask to buy Levis for them since in Europe the same pants were much more expensive. When they would visit here in the US, they would often travel with an empty suitcase so they could stock up for the return trip.
Any one care to mention the sales tax on an auto in Denmark? Or the registration fee each year? Every wonder why you see so many people riding bikes in Denmark?

 

[Sf844]

I work for a large international company based in Sweden. I would often travel for meetings to France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark. People I would meet with at the company who had comparable jobs to mine (engineering) would live in an apartment about the size of my living room. Would have one small car, and a bike. I have 3 cars. It seemed I had way more money left over after taxes and living expenses, even after the company deducted some money each month towards my health insurance. Many times they would ask to buy Levis for them since in Europe the same pants were much more expensive. When they would visit here in the US, they would often travel with an empty suitcase so they could stock up for the return trip.
Any one care to mention the sales tax on an auto in Denmark? Or the registration fee each year? Every wonder why you see so many people riding bikes in Denmark?

I mean, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and the like are peculiar but they have populations of 5-10 millions, so they don’t tip the scale.

To analyze the EU you have to consider Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands. Then you have the much smaller and richer northern countries which are compensated by the poorer eastern countries in most stats.

When it comes to Levis it’s a cultural thing. They could buy jeans at Zara, and those are more expensive in the US too.

American brands use to be cheaper in the US. If you want to buy Apple or Levis there is no question. Also, if you want to buy LV, Zara, Suitsupply, Brioni, Zegna… it’s cheaper in Europe. Fine cheeses sold for €9/2kg in Europe are $10/150g in the US. European wines use to be over the top expensive in the US.

Of course Mercedes AMG, Maybach, BMW M, Audi S, Bentley, Porsche, Maserati and those kinds of brands with large margins and very expensive sell a lot in the US too.

On the other hand I have no doubt that if you’re an educated professional working for a multinational you have a much more lavish lifestyle in the US than your Danish counterparts. However, the guys flipping burgers, delivering for Amazon, construction workers, factory workers and so on… that’s a whole different story, isn’t it. Hence MAGA. MAGA goes away with “free” full healthcare, a retirement plan, unemployment protection and “free” education.There is no MDGA in Denmark.

 

[IVI477]

what apps do people want to side load? I don't see why it's seen as so important to some.

 

[bluecoast]

I work for a large international company based in Sweden. I would often travel for meetings to France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark. People I would meet with at the company who had comparable jobs to mine (engineering) would live in an apartment about the size of my living room. Would have one small car, and a bike. I have 3 cars. It seemed I had way more money left over after taxes and living expenses, even after the company deducted some money each month towards my health insurance. Many times they would ask to buy Levis for them since in Europe the same pants were much more expensive. When they would visit here in the US, they would often travel with an empty suitcase so they could stock up for the return trip.
Any one care to mention the sales tax on an auto in Denmark? Or the registration fee each year? Every wonder why you see so many people riding bikes in Denmark?

I’m in the uk which is sort of a half way house between the (generally) low taxed USA and the (generally) higher taxed EU countries.

I’m not going to argue for one approach being right of wrong just to explain things a little.

It’s basically a difference in philosophy where for the most part the western EU countries have ‘free’ heath care and generous welfare plus free higher education etc etc.

I say ‘free’ because of course, these are paid for by high taxation !

Whether you agree with this or not, this approach came out of the disaster of WW2 - and to make a switch to communism less tempting.

There was a choice to try and make these societies as stable as possible where capitalism would be balanced by the state and there would be a ‘best of both worlds approach’.

Eastern Europe had of course, the experience of communism and there’s more of an experience of the state playing a big role in your life.

Needless to say, the philosophy in the USA trusts more the market and the individual.

We can all argue the merits of each approach until the cows come home.

I’m just arguing that Europe has had a different experience (ww2, the Cold War & communism in the east) to the USA and that explains the different approach.

Although the end of WW2 is 72 years ago & the collapse of the iron curtain is just over 30 years ago, both still really haunt the EU.

 

[turbineseaplane]

what apps do people want to side load? I don't see why it's seen as so important to some.

Then don't worry about side loading and don't do it yourself, right?

 

[dk001]

what apps do people want to side load? I don't see why it's seen as so important to some.

There are a number of app types that Apple currently flat out does not allow.
Then there are apps that Apple has rejected for no real reason.
There are apps that could be so much better if they were allowed access to all the API’s.
Then there are a number of great apps in Cydia that would be awesome to get without Jailbreaking.

Is this stuff a threat to the App Store? I doubt it however it does broaden what the user can do with their device(s).
Remember it is called sideloading but technically is installing from locations other than the App Store.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Given the 275 Billion dollar secret deal Tim signed with China, one wonders how much of Apple's opposition to side loading is about China.

We all know the authoritarian government there wants no part of their citizens being able to install things and/or use their devices how they prefer -- especially if it's to organize or evade their dystopian surveillance.

 

[PC_tech]

Politically, they do. Can you imagine the public outcry if, because of this ridiculousness, Apple announced that they were going to pull all Apple products from the EU? The people would demand their leaders back down. And if there's one thing politicians fear, it's the joining-together of people for a cause... and this would be the one thing that all the people from all different sides of the political sphere would agree on all at once.

They (the EU) would cave.

Rational adults wouldn’t care because Apple will never do that, I just don’t know why you guys keep insisting on this happening ?

 

[icanhazmac]

We should put up a list of mr usernames who are against sideloading, so we can lock them in a pillory later, when we catch them using a sideloaded app.

I bet there will be quite a few of these antichrists!

Really? Your life is so empty that attempting to catch anonymous message board members using an alt-store, because they have been FORCED to via legislation, completes you? That is pathetic. The day may come where we have no choice, at least today there is a choice, stick with the iOS store or jailbreak and sideload.... or buy an Android.

There is a huge difference between someone coming out against alt-stores and alt-payment processors because they prefer the privacy and convenience of a one-stop-shop versus those that become forced to do so because legislation fragmented the marketplace.

Many folks on the pro alt-stores side of this debate tell the rest of us "just don't load apps from other stores if you don't want too" but you all fail to address the eventual fragmentation of the current single marketplace. Just like the Mac side, in a world with alt-stores some devs will go it alone, some devs will join larger stores like Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Steam, etc. via exclusive distribution deals and and abandon the Apple store completely thereby eliminating my choice to not use alt-stores.

I prefer the iOS platform the way it is because of privacy and convenience. Unfortunately I am not afforded the same marketplace on my Mac so I am forced to use alt-stores and alt-payments if I want or need an app, this does not in any way challenge my convictions on iOS as I have no choice. I find the iOS marketplace far superior to the Mac and would vote for the Mac store to operate the exact same way.

At the very least I would want devs, as part of the dev agreement, to be forced to offer apps and payments via the iOS store as well as alt-stores, guarantee me that and maybe we can talk.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Maybe a "special version of iOS" should be made just for China and other authoritarian dystopias they need to kowtow to?

The "I" could stand for "Invasive"

iVasiveOS

 

[IVI477]

Then don't worry about side loading and don't do it yourself, right?

what if there's something great I'm missing out on? I'd like to know. Make sure to take your blood pressure meds, homie.

 

[IVI477]

There are a number of app types that Apple currently flat out does not allow.
Then there are apps that Apple has rejected for no real reason.
There are apps that could be so much better if they were allowed access to all the API’s.
Then there are a number of great apps in Cydia that would be awesome to get without Jailbreaking.

Is this stuff a threat to the App Store? I doubt it however it does broaden what the user can do with their device(s).
Remember it is called sideloading but technically is installing from locations other than the App Store.

Ah - reasons 1, 3, & 4 make a lot of sense to me!

your last point about what "sideloading" is compared to a computer becomes a little stronger every day as phones replace computers as the main computer for more and more people.

 

[jakey rolling]

Especially when it's described as:
"You can just download and install XXX right from the developer of XXX"
Makes all the sense in the world.

This is a problem I see with the wider computing enthusiast community. Whether it be this forum, or any forum about computers in general, there is always this prevailing elitist attitude that there are is a very small subset of computer users that "need" high technology, or "know about" even simple concepts (like what an app store actually does), and that the "common folk" of the world lack the intelligence to grasp basic terminology if given a simple explanation.

We aren't as special as some of us think we are. There are actually "normies" who like, can benefit from, and can <gasp> even understand some of the more advanced bit of tech that we enthusiasts come to enjoy.

The thing that is doubly-annoying in this particular thread is that the same people who think that smartphone normies are too stupid to understand basic concepts are also supposedly so perfectly intelligent and rational that they already know every technological difference between the Android and iOS ecosystems that they obviously made a fully informed rational choice when they bought an iPhone.

 

[justanotherdave]

It’s probably been mentioned, but I don’t think this will hold up to a court challenge. The EU seems to have decided on a specific set of companies they wanted to target and then made a very specific set of rules that would only affect those companies, but no EU member companies. It’s a discriminatory proposal.

That said, if Apple is forced to allow sideloading then they should set up a team that checks these Apps. They can look for Apps that have malware or abuse your privacy by sharing data or ignoring rules that prevent tracking (all super easy to do if nobody is vetting your Apps).

They can publish an easily searchable database so consumers can see what these Apps are doing. All perfectly legal since Apple is simply telling the truth about how these Apps work. Apple can scream about privacy/security going down with sideloading, but it’s only a prediction. Showing it actually happening would prove Apple was tight, and would provide compelling evidence for a court challenge.

 

[turbineseaplane]

That said, if Apple is forced to allow sideloading then they should set up a team that checks these Apps. They can look for Apps that have malware or abuse your privacy by sharing data or ignoring rules that prevent tracking (all super easy to do if nobody is vetting your Apps).

Apple can't even do this in their existing App Store

Though it only sort of benefits them to try -- some amount of scamming works in their financial favor when they have a monopoly on the the iOS App Distribution and built in revenue extraction

 

[jakey rolling]

It’s probably been mentioned, but I don’t think this will hold up to a court challenge. The EU seems to have decided on a specific set of companies they wanted to target and then made a very specific set of rules that would only affect those companies, but no EU member companies. It’s a discriminatory proposal.

So countries cannot enact laws that give advantages to companies in their own countries? Gosh, you really aught to tell the United States that. (*cough* Boeing *cough*).

 

[justanotherdave]

So countries cannot enact laws that give advantages to companies in their own countries? Gosh, you really aught to tell the United States that. (*cough* Boeing *cough*).

“But little Johnny got to do that, so I should too.”

It’s wrong no matter who does it.

 

[jakey rolling]

your last point about what "sideloading" is compared to a computer becomes a little stronger every day as phones replace computers as the main computer for more and more people.

It does. Smartphones have long since become general purpose computers. Many (if not most) people use them as general purpose computers, with actual "phone" use being a very minor part of that usage.

Heck, I use my desktop PC as a phone far more than my smartphone, simply because our company has standardized on Teams as our phone system. The ratio of phone calls I make or receive on my computer compared to my smartphone is at least 20:1, if not higher.

 

[justanotherdave]

Apple can't even do this in their existing App Store

Though it only sort of benefits them to try -- some amount of scamming works in their financial favor when they have a monopoly on the the iOS App Distribution and built in revenue extraction

Ridiculous. Apple does just fine. People only concentrate on the few Apps that sneak past (and make the news, because Apple) while ignoring the tens of thousands of Apps Apple regularly catches and rejects.

 

[jakey rolling]

“But little Johnny got to do that, so I should too.”
It’s wrong no matter who does it.

It's not wrong at all. Supporting domestic industry is exactly what governments are supposed to do.

 

[Hunter5117]

You’ve completely misunderstood all the situations you listed

Why don't you explain them rather than just make statements with no backing.

 

[d686546s]

It’s probably been mentioned, but I don’t think this will hold up to a court challenge. The EU seems to have decided on a specific set of companies they wanted to target and then made a very specific set of rules that would only affect those companies, but no EU member companies. It’s a discriminatory proposal.

They have decided on a specific set of companies because these hold a significant power, but the regulations apply equally to all companies that meet the criteria.

It's not "discriminatory" simply because most of big tech is American.

Can you be specific as to why it wouldn't hold up in court?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The F35 project has shown plenty of incompetence yet I wonder, what would the US think if France conspired to convince a major customer of scrapping their purchase? And then went to the press and announced it like a big victory?

Do you think that attitude helps building reliable relationships?

What do you think the US would think if it were in a standoff with China in the Pacific, trying to negotiate a cease fire and the EU publicly said China are war criminals and Xi Jinping should be deposed, without consulting it with the US first?

I would say that’s non of US business. USA and EU do not share the same foreign relations policy.

It happened when USA wanted to exit the Iran nuclear deal. EU effectively told USA to pound dirt and ignored US sanctions etc

And that contract you talk about was contractually legal and US fault.

Still this has nothing do do with this discussion tho