I am thinking the same, and hedging my bets either way if I will stay or leave Apple for my professional computers. Right now however it is looking more like leave.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Leaving Apple over ARM Based Macs discussion [merged]
- Thread starter SocialKonstruct
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I am thinking the same, and hedging my bets either way if I will stay or leave Apple for my professional computers. Right now however it is looking more like leave.
Apple said the transition will take two years and there are still new Intel Macs to come, so I'm guessing we'll see at least one more (perhaps final) 16" MacBook Pro with Intel.
It's simply way too early for me to decide what I might do in 2-3 years when I want to upgrade my current 16"er and there are no more Intel Macs available (new). I just hope they make the new hardware compelling enough to encourage interest from developers who aren't already making Mac software.
It's simply way too early for me to decide what I might do in 2-3 years when I want to upgrade my current 16"er and there are no more Intel Macs available (new). I just hope they make the new hardware compelling enough to encourage interest from developers who aren't already making Mac software.
Yep and that is where the problem lies for me - the software development. All of the apps I use that are on both platforms perform better in boot camp than they do on MacOS ! I am convinced it is because they are written primarily and better for the 90% of windows users and not us 10% Mac users.
Someone can correct me, but this is my impression of how things are. I love my Macs and really am positive about the Arm CPU’s but it super hard for me to stay with Apole when Windows offers me professionally so much more.
Watching the videos of the changes to IOS and Macos, I think to myself, really there is not a single thing that is going to help me and my work. They look really nice though. And that really is the bottom line to it all, I need to earn money with my tools and I am lacking confidence right now in Apple allowing me to do that in a way that is better than it would be with Windows.
I don't think we should discount the number of developers already developing for ARM, albeit for the iPad. Then there's the ARM based Surface. Sure there are some applications/packages that are hardcore Windows, but OS is becoming less and less of a factor.
These days software developers re expected to deliver a consistent experience across multiple platforms including Windows, Mac, IOS, ChromeOS, or Android. Look what MS has achieved with M365 for example.
Multi-platform support has also led to the widespread adoption of cloud and browser based apps. It's a very different time than it was the last time there was a processor transition. "Windows Product 2002" is either going to evolve, or it will be replaced by something else.
Tim
These days software developers re expected to deliver a consistent experience across multiple platforms including Windows, Mac, IOS, ChromeOS, or Android. Look what MS has achieved with M365 for example.
Multi-platform support has also led to the widespread adoption of cloud and browser based apps. It's a very different time than it was the last time there was a processor transition. "Windows Product 2002" is either going to evolve, or it will be replaced by something else.
Tim
This is all true, however I am talking professional 3D software like Rhino, fusion 360, unreal etc. all better in Windows, but all run on Macs too.....
I'm annoyed Apple isn't taking a parallel approach of Intel maybe for its Pro line and ARM for consumer lines. Anyway I think I'm going to swap out my iPad Pro for a Surface Pro 7 while still moving to the ARM MacBook Pro to replace my 2020 i7 MBP 13. That way I'd just run my iPad apps on the Mac and use the Surface for light Windows gaming and xCloud game streaming (and yeah, USB-A ports).
Anyone else thinking of doing the above? Seems to be the best of both worlds since iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard is almost like a MacBook already anyway.
Anyone else thinking of doing the above? Seems to be the best of both worlds since iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard is almost like a MacBook already anyway.
I work in research. We run a ton of custom software written for Windows + Unix, much of it 20+ years old "abandonware." I happily run it all on my Mac with VMware and native Unix x86 support. x86 Macs have been great joy to use for the past 15 years, and made my job much easier. I really hope there's a way to port my existing virtual machines (windows 3.1, windows XP) to the new architecture, but I'm loosing hope.
I'm actually considering getting a MS surface. Life is strange.
I'm actually considering getting a MS surface. Life is strange.
They may very well believe that they don't need to - that is the power of their ARM chips will be so much better that you'll go with Apple. In the real world, some people need compatibility. I think that they are going to play it by ear on the transition time-frames.
I'm not too worried about ARM but I've been doing porting work since the early 1980s.
I certainly hope the "incredible" performance they claim is true and can be used to at least emulate Windows 10 in a VM but I'm wary of Apple's tendencies towards hyperbole and hubris. Nevertheless, I'll wait and see. I'll still chop in the iPad for a Surface though as compatibility is high on my list of priorities and I love Xbox gaming. Intel was my big reason to switch to the Mac 13 years ago too.
That sounds like a sensible approach if you depend on specific Windows apps.
I did it purely out of spite. I can't support a company that keeps doing this to their own customers. I mean come on, we've seen this before! I still have a machine that is as old as Macs old silicon.... I forget what it's called, but it was before the switch to Intel. All of that equipment is unusable now, but my windows machine still is. Not that I use them often, but I do keep them around. I will say I did use them more when I was on Mac for windows only things, like flashing phones, or other windows specific things. If I had the money, I'd totally stay with Apple and get all the stuff that's the new rage, I love the design of the new iPhone, I wish they never went away with the squared off design, but we've been there before and we've seen what happens. There are still a lot of programs out there that suggest C2D as minimum spec, the machines are still used often in the windows world. Apple wants to constantly progress and improve, but they can do it without throwing away older technology. They won't because they lose money, both in maintenance of that older tech with current software and.... Here's the big one, NEW SALES $$$
the discussion has become moot since Apple has already confirmed that Bootcamp won’t exist on Apple Silicon
I kept think about those last words. Its not the fact that you can create another Rosetta, and you can get software to also run within that. It's rather the fact that we are looking for performance advancements with each new generation of computers, not getting something new inside that saves Apple money with no real usage improvements.
This is encouraging and might help. This is Parallels response to the new ARM Silicon.
www.parallels.com
Application and Desktop Delivery | Parallels RAS
Parallels Remote Application Server (RAS) is a complete application delivery and VDI solution empowering the creation of digital workspaces! Read more.
www.parallels.com
Having built a Windows desktop, the fastest thing I've ever used, for half the cost of my MBP --- definitely going to have a hard time paying MBP prices in the future. If anything, will be getting a MBA maybe... I like Mac OS for my personal computing. This whole Arm stuff doesn't really bother me because since April this year I've been using my Desktop for work/gaming/windows stuff and my MBP for reading, personal computing, whatever.
For me this works perfect (even though I'd like to have one device to rule them all).
-------------
In response to the above posts - someone is actually using a Windows PC from 2006 and calls it useful? I am impressed. I know, I know - your point - I got it.
The Parallels site doesn't say much - and the comments are full of an over-active employee? redirecting people to the ... very page that they're on for more info to their questions.
I left that page wondering if they'll support Windows.
I ran Parallels on my MBP for years doing full on development in Windows. It was doable. Couldn't game but I could definitely work.
For me this works perfect (even though I'd like to have one device to rule them all).
-------------
In response to the above posts - someone is actually using a Windows PC from 2006 and calls it useful? I am impressed. I know, I know - your point - I got it.
The Parallels site doesn't say much - and the comments are full of an over-active employee? redirecting people to the ... very page that they're on for more info to their questions.
I left that page wondering if they'll support Windows.
I ran Parallels on my MBP for years doing full on development in Windows. It was doable. Couldn't game but I could definitely work.
Last edited:
It’s almost unbelievable that Apple can release an ARM-based custom chip to compete with high-end Xeon processors in the Mac Pro within 2 years.
This makes me think Apple knows a thing or two that they’re not letting on and that their processor development is much further advanced than we think; or that they don’t intend to move the Mac Pro to ARM at all and the current and any upcoming Xeon-based Mac Pros will be their last. That would be a very strange thing however given the effort and fanfare Apple put in to the latest tower and XDR screen.
Still, given that many pro apps develop quite slowly and rarely if ever make major jumps in architecture, I‘m very curious as to how this will play out. I can’t help but think it’s a major risk to the professional market and their professional-minded or prosumer customers just at the time they were trying to entice them back to the platform! Perhaps they haven’t decided about the Mac Pro and the timings are flexible. Perhaps too the Mac Pro hasn’t been as successful as they hoped and its development wasn’t worth it to them after all.
In general, professional software platforms like stability and are resistant to change. In some cases this is born out of laziness, but in others their software libraries are so big that to rewrite them all is just too big (and expensive) a burden for little benefit unless they really have to.
Of course, Apple will port their own pro apps and partner with select few other companies like Adobe to help them do the same, but it’s all the other pro software that is the issue, and of course the giant elephant in the room that is loss of Windows support, which many Mac Pro owners use I’m guessing.
This makes me think Apple knows a thing or two that they’re not letting on and that their processor development is much further advanced than we think; or that they don’t intend to move the Mac Pro to ARM at all and the current and any upcoming Xeon-based Mac Pros will be their last. That would be a very strange thing however given the effort and fanfare Apple put in to the latest tower and XDR screen.
Still, given that many pro apps develop quite slowly and rarely if ever make major jumps in architecture, I‘m very curious as to how this will play out. I can’t help but think it’s a major risk to the professional market and their professional-minded or prosumer customers just at the time they were trying to entice them back to the platform! Perhaps they haven’t decided about the Mac Pro and the timings are flexible. Perhaps too the Mac Pro hasn’t been as successful as they hoped and its development wasn’t worth it to them after all.
In general, professional software platforms like stability and are resistant to change. In some cases this is born out of laziness, but in others their software libraries are so big that to rewrite them all is just too big (and expensive) a burden for little benefit unless they really have to.
Of course, Apple will port their own pro apps and partner with select few other companies like Adobe to help them do the same, but it’s all the other pro software that is the issue, and of course the giant elephant in the room that is loss of Windows support, which many Mac Pro owners use I’m guessing.
Last edited:
I don't doubt Apple can probably push CPU performance pretty far, as they have been able to do some impressive things with the iPad and iPhone.
But the main problem will be GPU performance.
No matter how good Apple engineers are, they are going up against nVidia and AMD now.
iPhone and iPad GPUs might be "good" for mobile devices, but it remains to be seen whether they can stay competitive against Pro-level solutions from nVidia and AMD.
So to that end, my guess is the current Intel Mac Pro will be the very last one Apple will come out with for the next 10 years. Then after that, they'll phase it out and concentrate only on iMac and Mac Mini for desktop use and MacBooks for mobile use. That's it. No more Mac Pro.
Why? Because the whole point of a Mac Pro is being modular, with upgradeable components. That's not something Apple can do with ARM. So I'm 99.99% sure the current Mac Pro is the very last one.
But the main problem will be GPU performance.
No matter how good Apple engineers are, they are going up against nVidia and AMD now.
iPhone and iPad GPUs might be "good" for mobile devices, but it remains to be seen whether they can stay competitive against Pro-level solutions from nVidia and AMD.
So to that end, my guess is the current Intel Mac Pro will be the very last one Apple will come out with for the next 10 years. Then after that, they'll phase it out and concentrate only on iMac and Mac Mini for desktop use and MacBooks for mobile use. That's it. No more Mac Pro.
Why? Because the whole point of a Mac Pro is being modular, with upgradeable components. That's not something Apple can do with ARM. So I'm 99.99% sure the current Mac Pro is the very last one.
That’s a scary prospect for people who’ve shelled out so much for a Mac Pro. Alternate (and perhaps hopeful) future would be for Apple to retain the Mac Pro as an ARM device but write the drivers necessary for GPU upgrades. That would give hope to those of us who use eGPUs for Boot Camp gaming.
Yeah, the ARM transition killed my desire for the $43K Mac Pro currently listed on the refurb store. Well, that and a lack of money.
I assume there will be an Arm macpro someday and you will be able to buy a new main board. Shouldn’t be THAT expensive an upgrade, since the main board doesn’t come with $800 wheels
Apple most likely won't work with nVidia again at this point. Seems like they burned that bridge a long time ago.
They "may" work with AMD to provide ARM versions of their drivers, but... I'm not hopeful because AMD can barely write "workable" graphics drivers for x86 as is, and they barely update their drivers on the Mac, if at all.
Due to that, I think it's highly likely that Apple will just drop support for eGPUs and modular GPUs altogether.
Also there's no Boot Camp anymore (confirmed at least twice), so there's no point to having these GPUs for gaming.
Their message is clear: if you need Boot Camp, their Mac platform is not for you. If you need a modular Mac that can take components other than what Apple provides, the Mac is not for you.
They're plugging up all of the holes and making sure the "walled garden" becomes even more "walled up". While some may like that, I'm watching very closely how it all plays out by the end of the year. Likely, what'll happen is I'll probably just own a "whatever" MacBook that barely does what I need, and then I'll have a Windows computer on the side for heavy lifting. And that'll be true for the next 10 years.
I really was going to pull the trigger on a Mac Pro but after this WWDC, Apple has effectively killed off the idea of me ever owning a Mac Pro at all. As a potential Mac Pro owner, I'd say what Apple announced was no less than a slap in the face.
I think most people who can will wait and see.
For professionals who need a new computer in the near future, it's a decision they have to individually make based on their needs.
I agree completely with the previous post by @Plutonius.
I like to add that on the Windows side there are much more choices than only MS Surface products. Dell, HP, Lenovo, Razer, Asus, Acer etc. all come to mind. If a professional is considering switching to the Windows PC side he/she will be confronted with a plethora of choices. Having choices is a good thing.
Last edited: