Leaving Apple over ARM Based Macs discussion [merged]

[johannnn]

For those who do professional work, would anyone consider switching to Microsoft Surface Book for productivity if Apple decides to go full ARM with their professional lineup?

Why would anyone leave Apple over the ARM move? Apple have said that 1) they still have Intel-based Macs yet to be announced, and 2) they will support macOS on Intel for many years.

So yeah, we could have this discussion in 5-6 years. But to have the discussion today is stupid.

 

[Plutonius]

Why would anyone leave Apple over the ARM move? Apple have said that 1) they still have Intel-based Macs yet to be announced, and 2) they will support macOS on Intel for many years.

So yeah, we could have this discussion in 5-6 years. But to have the discussion today is stupid.

What applies to you may not apply to others.

Many businesses plan their strategies far in advance and just because Apple says they will, doesn't mean they will or indicate how much effort they will put into it.

 

[dgdosen]

I think it's highly likely that Apple will just drop support for eGPUs and modular GPUs altogether.

They're plugging up all of the holes and making sure the "walled garden" becomes even more "walled up".

A decrease in hardware tinker-ability seems to be a very real risk (on what's already a tinker-limiting platform).

We'll see...

 

[bill-p]

Why would anyone leave Apple over the ARM move? Apple have said that 1) they still have Intel-based Macs yet to be announced, and 2) they will support macOS on Intel for many years.

So yeah, we could have this discussion in 5-6 years. But to have the discussion today is stupid.

The following people shall leave for sure:

1. Those who also need to run Boot Camp for their CAD software. CAD on Mac is horribad.
2. Those who want Boot Camp for gaming.
3. Those who need x86 compatibility because... God forbids, there are, oh... ZERO cloud server that's actually running ARM.
4. Those who want a Mac they can upgrade 5-6 years down the line by putting in more RAM, a new GPU, etc...
5. Those who want to develop their software for other platforms that are not Mac.
6. Those who are not willing to pay the "Apple tax" when Apple releases that next MacBook that costs the same or more than the current lineup, but with a chip that they make in house and don't pay for royalties or anything of the sort.

These 3 factors will make me leave for sure:

1. The next MacBook is more expensive.
2. The next MacBook has less GPU performance because... I don't know, it's super easy to scale from a phone GPU to a desktop-class GPU, right?
3. Apple does not address the bugs that are currently in Catalina that are plaguing my 16".

Apple is moving too fast. I am actually HIGHLY disappointed they are introducing Big Sur with all new sparkly features and completely ABANDON us 16" MacBook users who still need a software fix for our graphics cards when connected to multiple monitors. They have proven to me at this point that the ARM move does not benefit me, and will only benefit them. So why do I have to continue supporting them again? Steve Jobs at least could tell me why I needed to support him. Tim Cooks is failing very badly at doing exactly that.

 

[RoundaboutRider]

Apple is moving too fast. I am actually HIGHLY disappointed they are introducing Big Sur with all new sparkly features and completely ABANDON us 16" MacBook users who still need a software fix for our graphics cards when connected to multiple monitors. They have proven to me at this point that the ARM move does not benefit me, and will only benefit them. So why do I have to continue supporting them again? Steve Jobs at least could tell me why I needed to support him. Tim Cooks is failing very badly at doing exactly that.

I agree. My MBP 13 still has trouble getting the Blackmagic eGPU working properly so I can’t imagine this transition will make things better. Also kinda upset I spent £3000 just a month ago for my MBP13 and can’t return it now!

 

[Quu]

I don’t get all the concern. Aren’t there ARM versions of both Windows and Linux? This shouldn’t be an issue. Just apps will have to be recompiled.

Microsoft does not license Windows ARM for self-install and Apple has said they will not support Bootcamp at all on ARM based Macs. They will only be able to boot versions of macOS. This was confirmed by Craig in his interview with John Gruber on the recent podcast they did together.

So the only way to run Windows on ARM based Macs will be if Microsoft chooses to license it or if hackers get it to work and then in addition to either of those things happening it would only be available to run inside a virtual machine which means likely poor graphics performance and an inability to run games or things of that nature which are quite a popular use case for booting Windows to begin with.

 

[ewu]

the winner is Microsoft for ARM-based Mac.

 

[Ethosik]

This also means no Windows 10 for Arm in a virtual machine, i.e. no Windows on Mac.

This is why I will be getting an intel Mac Pro in the next few months as I would still like to use Bootcamp and Virtual Machines with Windows running. Yeah its Intel but I need to use this stuff and that's up in the air right now. A 2019 Mac Pro should last quite a long time.

 

[Mr. Heckles]

It's going to be month before the new ARM Macs, so who says Windows and Apple won't have an agreement by then?

 

[UBS28]

It's going to be month before the new ARM Macs, so who says Windows and Apple won't have an agreement by then?

You mean the same Apple that demands a 30% cut from every Office 365 subscription?

Yeah, I can really see why Microsoft would want to do any favours for Apple when Apple is stealing money from them.

 

[bsamcash]

Yeah, I can really see why Microsoft would want to do any favours for Apple when Apple is stealing money from them.

How is Apple stealing by charging for the overhead of using their online store? Microsoft doesn’t have to use it.

 

[UBS28]

How is Apple stealing by charging for the overhead of using their online store? Microsoft doesn’t have to use it.

There is no overhead by Apple, the overhead is all on Microsoft their cloud platform.

Microsoft has to use the Apple Store because Apple does not allow installation of apps in any other way possible. Jailbreaking is also actively being shut down by Apple. So Microsoft has no choice.

The App Store is just a gatekeeper to collect a 30% toll, nothing more. iOS would be better without the App Store so that we would have the freedom to install anything we want.

Sadly, the same will probably happen with the move to ARM. Apple will only allow apps to be installed from the App Store. There is a clear trend of Mac moving towards iOS.

 

[bsamcash]

The App Store is just a gatekeeper to collect a 30% toll, nothing more. iOS would be better without the App Store so that we would have the freedom to install anything we want.

As true as this may be, it’s still not stealing. Again, Microsoft does not have to use the App Store.

 

[UBS28]

As true as this may be, it’s still not stealing. Again, Microsoft does not have to use the App Store.

Microsoft has to use the App Store because there is no other way to install their apps on iOS (and soon on Mac too with the move to ARM).

Many companies are pissed at Apple for this reason and some are even going to court.

Imagine Netflix having to pay 30% of all their subscriptions. That is nuts considering Apple has nothing to do with all the overhead and investments Netflix has to make.

 

[coachingguy]

I've read through most of the posts around this discussion and while there have been things discussed that I know nothing about...? From a business standpoint, I'm assuming that Apple isn't going to deny any SW creators from working with their ARM platform... especially Adobe, Microsoft etc...Why would they? I think the whole move is that they're tired of being held hostage by Intel's timeline... IHMO

The Microsoft Surface has been brought up multiple times... I picked up an Openbox/Display model Surface Pro from Best Buy a year and half ago for less than half price... I thought that it is what the MBA should have been, but I hate working in Windows... I can, but it feels cumbersome after working with MACOS, but I know many who feel just the opposite. I like the portability of the Surface Pro and using the Pen etc... It's my Coffee Shop computer, back when we went to Coffee Shops...

Just my .02¢

Coachingguy

 

[jerryk]

You mean the same Apple that demands a 30% cut from every Office 365 subscription?

Yeah, I can really see why Microsoft would want to do any favours for Apple when Apple is stealing money from them.

15% is the standard AppStore fee for established (1 year or longer in store) subscriptions apps like Office 365. The fee is the same for Google Play Store.

No doubt Microsoft and other large publishers (ex. Adobe) can work the deals to insure their fees in other areas, user upgrades in cloud storage, add-ons, etc. are not included.

 

[usagora]

You mean the same Apple that demands a 30% cut from every Office 365 subscription?

Yeah, I can really see why Microsoft would want to do any favours for Apple when Apple is stealing money from them.

I've been an Office 365 (now called Microsoft 365) subscriber for years and my payment is processed directly by Microsoft, not through the App Store. I download the macOS apps from Microsoft's website and the iOS apps from the App Store (but no payment is ever made through those apps - I simply log in with my Microsoft credentials tied to my subscription to activate them), so Apple isn't collecting anything.

 

[ksgant]

For those who do professional work, would anyone consider switching to Microsoft Surface Book for productivity if Apple decides to go full ARM with their professional lineup?

No. I've done my professional work on Macs nearly my entire career back to the early 90s. I was with them when they went from 68000 to PowerPC and I was with them when they switched to Intel. Why wouldn't I continue using them with ARM? If the software I use continues to work and work better and more efficiently, then why even consider switching to an inferior product like Windows and their products? I've been over on that side...not looking forward to ever going back.

But hey, that's just me.

 

[Anarchy99]

whether i abandon the Mac depends on a few factors:

1)how good Apple's Virtualization is (i wont care about Bootcamp if Virtualization is just as fast)
2) how fast Rosetta 2 is
3) if the virtualization allows more than just USB passthrough (PCIE and TB for example so i can still CUDA )
4)how well Apple Silicon™ Scales on the high-end (because really that determines my other 3 issues.)

if I'm not clearly blown away by the Apple Silicon™ suite of virtualization solutions then its back to Hackintoshing x86 for me either bare metal or KVM for a few years till inevitably you can Hackintosh or VM ARM-based macOS.

realistically I don't see why this can't happen there are already many communities emulating ARM on x86 for various purposes.
if Apple's ARM push is indicative of a trend then what emulation is currently already ok will get better and better.

it was bad enough with the years of neglect across the product lines, even the new Mac Pro is a poor attempt (performance per $), and then when they turfed NVIDIA forcing me to keep some machines on High Sierra.
they haven't lost me yet but I'm cautiously pessimistic and it sure feels like they are trying to lose me sometimes

 

[bsamcash]

realistically I don't see why this can't happen there are already many communities emulating ARM on x86 for various purposes.

I’m not an expert, but my gut tells me it’s a lot easier for a complex instruction set to emulate a reduced than the opposite. But I would be very please to be wrong here.

 

[matram]

I’m not an expert, but my gut tells me it’s a lot easier for a complex instruction set to emulate a reduced than the opposite. But I would be very please to be wrong here.

A lot of the instructions are actually the same like simple add, multiply and branch. One key difference is that a RISC CPU perform these on CPU registers while CISC works towards memory. RISC would use separate load and store instructions to move data to / from memory to registers.

With many CPU registers a RISC CPU may able to do more work without accessing slower memory.

 

[ChrisA]

This is all true, however I am talking professional 3D software like Rhino, fusion 360, unreal etc. all better in Windows, but all run on Macs too.....

Yes. I'm a 3D CAD user. Autodesk has basically said they are in absolutely no rush to move to ARM and will depend on Apple's Rosetta to allow those buying Apple Silicone based Macs. (Yes, they said that.) Their reasoning is good. Why bother even thinking about porting to ARM until there are many ARM based macs actually in the field. It will take a year or more until the installed base of Mas is even 25% ARM. Developers can afford to wait and see if the transition kill off the Mac or not. It just might.

What I've done is moved by 3D work to a high-end Intel desktop that runs Linux Ubuntu and VMware with Windows 10. Windows runs really well in the virtual machine and the CAD software runs faster under Windows and VMware than it does on the iMac.

I think this will be a good solution for professional users, move off the Mac. The first ARM Macs will be low-end and it will be a year or more until they are able to transition the high end Macs. But in the meantime, places like Newegg.com have Xeon-based HP workstations that have just come off lease for peanuts. (12-core Xeon-based for $1,700)

The first ARM Macs are using iPad CPU chips which are OK for web browsing, email, and Youtube but not 3D CAD or video editing.

 

[ian87w]

The first ARM Macs are using iPad CPU chips which are OK for web browsing, email, and Youtube but not 3D CAD or video editing.

Are you sure on that? Specifically video editing?

This guy showing editing 4K 10bit video on the iPhone 12. That's on a thermally constrained phone. Extrapolate that to a laptop form factor, or even a desktop form factor, well, I can't wait to see what's coming.

 

[ght56]

TLDR, I am looking forward to ARM but am not opposed to evaluating all my options.

During the next update cycle I will definitely evaluate Windows vs. ARM Mac, but I think by then most software will probably have been updated to run natively on ARM and will run well...and for the older apps I use that are no longer maintained, chances are they will still be virtualized no differently than I am doing with Catalina (given the lack of 32-bit support.) Obviously Parallels and Fusion have a very strong incentive to deliver a stellar virtualization experience given both can make major $$$$$$ with the ARM transition. For current apps, Mac has a big enough operating system share now where not updating is probably too much lost profit, even though it may take developers of some apps a couple of years to get there. And while I expect the early generation devices to be more modest in their performance gains (as opposed to radical), I think it is very unlikely that ARM will fail and as time goes on ARM systems are going to be fast like a bat out of hell.

 

[leman]

The first ARM Macs are using iPad CPU chips which are OK for web browsing, email, and Youtube but not 3D CAD or video editing.

I wouldn't be so sure about that... in particular, unified memory, large caches, excellent CPU performance and TBDR GPUs and high-performance AA will most likely make it surprisingly capable for CAD.