bootcamp is mostly a thing for gamers. Without it, the Mac is dead as a doornail for gaming
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Leaving Apple over ARM Based Macs discussion [merged]
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bootcamp is mostly a thing for gamers. Without it, the Mac is dead as a doornail for gaming
I think you’re right. It’s not just that they didn’t mention boot camp, but they also used Linux as the example in parallels. If I knew windows would still work in parallels I’d probably suck it up and hold out for the ARM switch.
I’m guessing it won’t, or if it does, not particularly well. They probably would have mentioned it. Rosetta 2 presumably translates only x64 code to ARM. Windows running in virtualization would have a combination of 32-bit and 64-bit code. Today it communicates directly to the CPU. Unless Parallels has something in mind to augment Rosetta 2, my guess is that it won’t work.
Well it won't work natively, but they could emulate the hardware in software. Anyone remember Connectix Virtual PC from the PowerPC days? It sucked, but it worked. But it really sucked. Did I say that it sucked?
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Yes - but if you're doing any serious gaming on a Mac, then you're doing it wrong.
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Actually, hello Mac! ARM is going to be great. Native apps, Intel apps, iOS and iPadOS apps, and virtualization for other OS's. Fast ARM processors optimized for the Mac. Better battery life on laptops. Great move from Apple going to ARM.
To everyone who's wondering about Windows on ARM Macs:
I'm a developer, have worked for Microsoft in the past and know a thing or two about ARM and x86.
Here's the current state of things, going forward.
Emulation/Virtualization
-> it is possible to encapsulate 32-bit code in a 64-bit process. CodeWeavers have successfully done this under Catalina. Without knowing details about Rosetta 2, what that likely means is as long as Rosetta 2 is around, we'll likely be able to virtualize x64 Windows on ARM Macs. The only caveat here might be that Rosetta 2 translates x64 instructions to ARM at install time.
-> Once Rosetta 2 disappears, a new emulation layer will have to be found. Windows 10 on ARM could come into play here. Even if Windows 10 on ARM isn't officially supported by Apple, the community will find ways to virtualize it. Windows 10 on ARM ships with an x86 simulator, which could be used to keep running x86 Windows apps well into the future. If your Workflow depends on some old, specialized x86 Windows app, this might be your golden ticket. Unfortunately, Windows 10 on ARM doesn't currently support x64 emulation.
Bootcamp
-> There are two important parts needed to make Windows sing on a Mac: what's commonly referred to as the bootloader and a Windows build for the CPU architecture in question. With the availability of Windows 10 on ARM, the latter is already around. While there currently isn't an ARM build of a Mac bootloader available (to my knowledge), there's a pretty good chance something like OpenCore could be built for ARM Macs.
-> Bottom line is that this solution could provide a relatively efficient way to emulate x86 Windows apps on an ARM Mac by again using the x86 emulator that ships with Windows.
EDIT: Looks like Rosetta 2 won't be able to emulate virtualization software, so the first option under Emulation/Virtualization is off the table
I'm a developer, have worked for Microsoft in the past and know a thing or two about ARM and x86.
Here's the current state of things, going forward.
Emulation/Virtualization
-> it is possible to encapsulate 32-bit code in a 64-bit process. CodeWeavers have successfully done this under Catalina. Without knowing details about Rosetta 2, what that likely means is as long as Rosetta 2 is around, we'll likely be able to virtualize x64 Windows on ARM Macs. The only caveat here might be that Rosetta 2 translates x64 instructions to ARM at install time.
-> Once Rosetta 2 disappears, a new emulation layer will have to be found. Windows 10 on ARM could come into play here. Even if Windows 10 on ARM isn't officially supported by Apple, the community will find ways to virtualize it. Windows 10 on ARM ships with an x86 simulator, which could be used to keep running x86 Windows apps well into the future. If your Workflow depends on some old, specialized x86 Windows app, this might be your golden ticket. Unfortunately, Windows 10 on ARM doesn't currently support x64 emulation.
Bootcamp
-> There are two important parts needed to make Windows sing on a Mac: what's commonly referred to as the bootloader and a Windows build for the CPU architecture in question. With the availability of Windows 10 on ARM, the latter is already around. While there currently isn't an ARM build of a Mac bootloader available (to my knowledge), there's a pretty good chance something like OpenCore could be built for ARM Macs.
-> Bottom line is that this solution could provide a relatively efficient way to emulate x86 Windows apps on an ARM Mac by again using the x86 emulator that ships with Windows.
EDIT: Looks like Rosetta 2 won't be able to emulate virtualization software, so the first option under Emulation/Virtualization is off the table
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What does your EDIT mean exactly? Will I be able to run a 32 bit game on windows?
Can I run parallels or boot camp?
The edit means you won't be able to run 64 bit Windows apps on an ARM Mac unless Windows 10 on ARM gains the ability to emulate x64 software in the future.
Both parallels and bootcamp should be possible if Windows 10 on ARM works nicely with Apple's custom designed ARM chips. This is going to come down to details. Basically it depends on how close Apple's custom chips are to industry standard ARM chips. However, I'm fairly confident to say that that shouldn't be a huge issue. Apple and Microsoft are friends behind the scenes and if the Windows 10 on ARM product group feels like supporting Apple's CPUs is important to them, they will make things happen. Apple seems to at least be open to the idea of virtualizing 3rd party OS's on ARM Macs, so they most likely won't try to keep Microsoft from adding ARM Mac support to Windows 10 on ARM.
Once we get a version of Windows 10 on ARM that can be virtualized on Macs, it should be relatively straightforward to turn this into a dual-bootable solution. Basically all we'd need at that point is a custom boatloader and maybe a few drivers here and there. Granted, without Apple's blessing the dual boot solution would be close to what the Hackintosh community is doing today.
Once you get Windows 10 on ARM running, a 32 bit game should work without issues. The big questions here are:
-What's the GPU going to be like?
-How are non-Apple OS's going to interact with the GPU? (APIs, drivers)
-Is Windows' x86 emulator fast enough to run your game?
Both parallels and bootcamp should be possible if Windows 10 on ARM works nicely with Apple's custom designed ARM chips. This is going to come down to details. Basically it depends on how close Apple's custom chips are to industry standard ARM chips. However, I'm fairly confident to say that that shouldn't be a huge issue. Apple and Microsoft are friends behind the scenes and if the Windows 10 on ARM product group feels like supporting Apple's CPUs is important to them, they will make things happen. Apple seems to at least be open to the idea of virtualizing 3rd party OS's on ARM Macs, so they most likely won't try to keep Microsoft from adding ARM Mac support to Windows 10 on ARM.
Once we get a version of Windows 10 on ARM that can be virtualized on Macs, it should be relatively straightforward to turn this into a dual-bootable solution. Basically all we'd need at that point is a custom boatloader and maybe a few drivers here and there. Granted, without Apple's blessing the dual boot solution would be close to what the Hackintosh community is doing today.
Once you get Windows 10 on ARM running, a 32 bit game should work without issues. The big questions here are:
-What's the GPU going to be like?
-How are non-Apple OS's going to interact with the GPU? (APIs, drivers)
-Is Windows' x86 emulator fast enough to run your game?
I think it's exciting to see Apple transition Macs to ARM. I'm a basic user, not a pro. That said my 2019 16" MBP will likely be my last Mac. My first Mac used an Intel CPU. It's why I got interested in the Apple platform. I choose to run Windows at times. I'm sure they'll be great, time for me to hop off the Mac train.
It won't simply because windows runs on intel, and Mac will not in the future.
I do many basic stuff already on ipad, and it’s still going great. As for a computer, I own 2019 16” MBP so I have to let it run for 2~3 years anyway, and I already use a Windows PC as desktop usage.
So pretty much no loss for me. After 2~3 years, if Apple’s portable offerings with ARM is better performing in raw performance, I will probably switch. Otherwise, I will not.
So pretty much no loss for me. After 2~3 years, if Apple’s portable offerings with ARM is better performing in raw performance, I will probably switch. Otherwise, I will not.
Check out my posts #131, #133 and #135. There's a pretty good chance that it will be able to virtualize Windows 10 on ARM the day those first ARM Macs ship 😉
And Windows 10 on ARM emulates x86 apps, so all that's lost is x64 Windows app support - and we might get that later once more powerful ARM chips are around.
Yes, I agree with your previous posts. Technically it is possible, but it is telling that Apple did not mention Windows emulation/virtualization at all. Maybe Apple does not see Windows in the future of their product line.
So the question is probably not can it technically be done, but does Apple want to?
Now Macs will have access to all iOS and iPadOS games though and mobile gaming is huge.
Perhaps PC game developers now see iOS, iPadOS, and MacOS combined as big enough of a platform where they will port their x86 games over.
Previously, porting over their games to MacOS wasn't worth it since MacOS was small potatoes in terms of user base.
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Technically, it's possible, but just barely I think. Apple's SoCs are so customized that it'd probably take a huge effort to get it to work nicely with Windows. It's not just the CPU. Apple would have to write and maintain graphics drivers for Windows too.
It was easy before since Intel and AMD does Windows optimization for Apple.
I just don't see Windows on Mac as a thing in the future. Way too big of an effort for Apple to satisfy a niche use.
Are you an Apple dev? If so, watch the Platforms State of the Union, it should become clear ish by the wording used there that it's not a question of "does Apple want to?". They seem to be very open to running 3rd party OS's on ARM Macs. What nobody seems to have mentioned yet: the ARM transition also means we'll be able to run Android on our Macs. Whether that's a good thing is up to y'all to decide
Are you an Apple dev? If so, watch the Platforms State of the Union, it should become clear ish by the wording used there that it's not a question of "does Apple want to?". They seem to be very open to running 3rd party OS's on ARM Macs. What nobody seems to have mentioned yet: the ARM transition also means we'll be able to run Android on our Macs. Whether that's a good thing is up to y'all to decide
No, I am not an Apple Dev, but your statement 'There's a pretty good chance that it will be able to virtualize Windows 10 on ARM the day those first ARM Macs ship' seemed a bit too positive to me. While possible, you and I are not members of the Apple management and both can not look into the future plans of Apple. It will cost Apple a lot of developing and research to make that possible. Is this investment worthwhile for Apple? Does it fit in their future plans? Who knows. But on the other hand maybe Apple just want to close their ECO system a bit more and there is no place for Windows in their vision. Your guess is as good as mine
So, while technically possible (in your words) Apple did mention lots of virtualizations/emulations (Linux, Games, Rosetta2 etc.) but they carefully avoided mentioning Windows. Isn't that telling to you? Maybe you are right, but I don't get the impression Apple is very eager to do so.
Of course I can be wrong. We simply have to wait and see what the future holds
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Hardcore gamers, no. But the mobile gaming market is far bigger than the PC gaming market.
Playing devil's advocate here, why not? They already do with EVERY OTHER APP PLATFORM APPLE HAS! Apple's strategy is already to have the Mac conform to and adopt many iOS and iPadOS standards and technologies rather than the other way around (which is ironic since this all originally stemmed from Mac OS X's "Secret Double Life" as an Architecture-Agnostic operating system).
VERY Luckily, it seems as though, my prediction is wrong so far.
I left the apple ecosystem for 3 reasons;
-The newer iPhones are incredibly hard to repair compared to the older ones.
-A move to ARM will obsolete my older equipment faster and I will not be able to buy new at this time, or anytime in the foreseeable future.
-Unsure about Hackintosh support.
Sure, iPhones are technically more affordable than ever, I still prefer to repair my own... My way to say F the man. Also, I never ever ever bought new computers, it just doesn't make any sense to do that... Instead, I buy at least 3-4 year old computers. I spent a lot less and can switch them up easier without worrying about losing too much money. Hackintosh was a fun hobby, so if you take that away from me, you ain't no friend of mine.
The final straw is, I don't see Apple supporting X86 and ARM, just doesn't seem reasonable nor does it fit into Apple's modus operandi of "Lets F all of our customers and completely obsolete all of our products we just sold so they will be useless in 5 years"
One exception, is I believe they will have limited X86 support for their Mac Pro line of computers. At least I hope anyways or that would be the biggest F you of all.
-The newer iPhones are incredibly hard to repair compared to the older ones.
-A move to ARM will obsolete my older equipment faster and I will not be able to buy new at this time, or anytime in the foreseeable future.
-Unsure about Hackintosh support.
Sure, iPhones are technically more affordable than ever, I still prefer to repair my own... My way to say F the man. Also, I never ever ever bought new computers, it just doesn't make any sense to do that... Instead, I buy at least 3-4 year old computers. I spent a lot less and can switch them up easier without worrying about losing too much money. Hackintosh was a fun hobby, so if you take that away from me, you ain't no friend of mine.
The final straw is, I don't see Apple supporting X86 and ARM, just doesn't seem reasonable nor does it fit into Apple's modus operandi of "Lets F all of our customers and completely obsolete all of our products we just sold so they will be useless in 5 years"
One exception, is I believe they will have limited X86 support for their Mac Pro line of computers. At least I hope anyways or that would be the biggest F you of all.
I use macOS as a Linux with a better UI (“better” in the sense of requires less futzing). I mostly work in Terminal, use a lot of code from Macports, and write most of my own code in a combination of Fortran and shell/python scripting. None of my code has a GUI interface. So, I have two questions I’ll need answered: (1) what is going to happen, if anything, to the darwin underpinnings of macOS; and (2) will binary data files be transportable between an ARM Mac and an Intel Linux box?
To answer your questions:
1.) Nothing will happen to it, except it will be modified to run under ARM. Most likely, they'll just reuse the Darwin version that currently runs on iOS devices.
2.) Depends on how you're building your apps for Linux. If you're using a Linux VM to compile your Linux apps, you'll need an ARM->x86 cross compiler for that. I'm not aware of any compilers currently out in the field that do that under Linux, but I'm sure the Linux community will invest some work into such compilers with rising demand, i.e. more ARM chips in dev devices out in the field.
If you're using a cross toolchain to build your Linux apps under macOS, Rosetta will support such tools , unless they use some very specific CPU instructions. Obviously, the clock is ticking for Rosetta, and there's a really good chance such cross toolchains will gain ARM->x86 cross compilation support in the future.
The bottom line here is that you should be able to do exactly what you're trying to do from day 1.
My question is about cross-platform transfer of binary data files, not apps. Can I build a binary-format data file on an Intel platform, copy it over to the new Apple ARM platform, and read it there without any bit/byte swapping or otherwise changing the word structure?
Unless I understand your question wrong: Binary data files are not a problem. On any OS or CPU a bit is a bit and a byte is a byte. Of course the app reading the file has to know the format of the data file and has to be programmed to read the bytes from the binary file in the correct order. But that is nothing new, that was always the case.
Cross-platform transfer of apps will be the area where most work has to be done or problems will arise. Data files: no problem.
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