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ruka.snow

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
1,886
5,182
Scotland
I have to wait and see how Docker works on VMs before deciding. macOS will still be great for my hobbies(iOS programming, Photography), but I may need a x86 Linux machine(thanks MS for giving Linux Teams) for work. On the plus side, if I do need to use Linux for work it'll help create a better separation between work and home.
 

ruka.snow

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
1,886
5,182
Scotland
I use macOS as a Linux with a better UI (“better” in the sense of requires less futzing). I mostly work in Terminal, use a lot of code from Macports, and write most of my own code in a combination of Fortran and shell/python scripting. None of my code has a GUI interface. So, I have two questions I’ll need answered: (1) what is going to happen, if anything, to the darwin underpinnings of macOS; and (2) will binary data files be transportable between an ARM Mac and an Intel Linux box?

A lot of developers are in the same boat. macOS is Linux with commercial software. Its a wait and see just now on how it'll run. I did build a ruby app and shove it up to arm and it was fine and then for compiled applications you can send them to a build server. AWS code build is setup for me to build on push to master and then run the test suite and report back, something like this would likely work well for you too and costs very little.
 

rhor

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2017
31
19
My question is about cross-platform transfer of binary data files, not apps. Can I build a binary-format data file on an Intel platform, copy it over to the new Apple ARM platform, and read it there without any bit/byte swapping or otherwise changing the word structure?

Yes, you can. Just create a jpg on an Intel based Mac or Linux machine and copy it over to an iOS or Android device. They'll be able to read/display it just fine.
 

ruka.snow

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
1,886
5,182
Scotland
Is it my imagination, or was there a version of Parallels that ran on the old PPCs?

Microsoft Virtual PC for Mac. It was not a good experience to say the least. However, in the demo of running iOS apps they did have a Parallels icon with the Windows logo on the dock.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,572
43,556
Is it my imagination, or was there a version of Parallels that ran on the old PPCs?
There was a product called VirtualPC, a stand-alone company that Microsoft bought, back in the day. That product was a CPU emulator, not a virtualization application. To that end, the performance was beyond horrid.
 
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jasnw

macrumors 65816
Nov 15, 2013
1,013
1,052
Seattle Area (NOT! Microsoft)
My question is if the bit-level format of a REAL, DOUBLE, etc as stored in a binary file will be the same. Will they follow the same IEEE formatting standards that are used on Intel hardware. I ran into this problem when moving from SunOS SPARC to Linux Intel. All binary data files had to be reformatted at the word level. I'm not talking about image files, but data files.
 

bsamcash

macrumors 65816
Jul 31, 2008
1,033
2,622
San Jose, CA
I don’t get all the concern. Aren’t there ARM versions of both Windows and Linux? This shouldn’t be an issue. Just apps will have to be recompiled.
 

rhor

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2017
31
19
My question is if the bit-level format of a REAL, DOUBLE, etc as stored in a binary file will be the same. Will they follow the same IEEE formatting standards that are used on Intel hardware. I ran into this problem when moving from SunOS SPARC to Linux Intel. All binary data files had to be reformatted at the word level. I'm not talking about image files, but data files.

It would make a lot of sense for them to use iOS's formatting. So just test your scenario using iOS. If you need certainty, invest $500 in a DTK.
 

jerryk

macrumors 604
Nov 3, 2011
7,418
4,206
SF Bay Area
My question is about cross-platform transfer of binary data files, not apps. Can I build a binary-format data file on an Intel platform, copy it over to the new Apple ARM platform, and read it there without any bit/byte swapping or otherwise changing the word structure?

Not sure if this what what you are concerned about, but you should no issues moving the binary data. These days almost all architecture run multi-endian so can handle data from other systems. In particular, the Apple ARM run IOS little-endian like Intel, but is multi-endian.

But everyone concerned should want the WWDC sessions.
 
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AxiomaticRubric

macrumors 6502a
Sep 24, 2010
940
1,143
On Mars, Praising the Omnissiah
If you're referring to Microsoft and Adobe not wanting to port to ARM, and you know they won't, even with a year's notice - they'll cry poor after ARM Macs get released and say they can't possibly do it NOW. Apple will have privately communicated with such big software vendors even before an official ARM announcement, but none of them ever move before the deadline, nor use Apple's APIs that will speed porting…

Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, Adobe Lightroom, and Adobe Photoshop are shown running on an ARM Mac during the latest Platforms State of the Union video, if I recall correctly. Microsoft and Adobe are not going to drop the ball this time like they did during the transition from PowerPC to Intel.
 

1221320

Cancelled
Jun 16, 2020
69
19
Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, Adobe Lightroom, and Adobe Photoshop are shown running on an ARM Mac during the latest Platforms State of the Union video, if I recall correctly. Microsoft and Adobe are not going to drop the ball this time like they did during the transition from PowerPC to Intel.
Is this video available online, or is it only for WWDC attendees?
 

ruka.snow

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
1,886
5,182
Scotland
I don’t get all the concern. Aren’t there ARM versions of both Windows and Linux? This shouldn’t be an issue. Just apps will have to be recompiled.

A lot of reasons for opening up a Windows VM is to run that one obscure application your fiancé department requires you to use to sign of a PO and it is x86 code that runs on a specific version of Windows. ARM Windows is not a replacement for full Windows.
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I don’t think they specifically statement Windows would be supported. But it did seem to be implied.

They have a built in VM it seems and they suggested Docker works. Windows wasn't mentioned as far as I recall.
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Is this video available online, or is it only for WWDC attendees?

They showed this in the keynote, you can watch on Apple's homepage.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,304
19,289
My question is if the bit-level format of a REAL, DOUBLE, etc as stored in a binary file will be the same. Will they follow the same IEEE formatting standards that are used on Intel hardware. I ran into this problem when moving from SunOS SPARC to Linux Intel. All binary data files had to be reformatted at the word level. I'm not talking about image files, but data files.

Endiannes, basic data type sizes and alignment are identical between x86-64 and ARM64. You can copy data structures over network between an Intel Mac and an iOS device without any serialization. This is what makes this transition possible. And it’s the reason why building the same app for ARM and x86 is trivial in most cases.
 

rhor

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2017
31
19
Is this video available online, or is it only for WWDC attendees?

The Platforms State of the Union video is available to everyone who's got a paid Apple Dev account.

Yes there was, they stated there will be VM support, Parallels will still work, no more Bootcamp.

It mostly comes down to support by the guest OS at this point. In the Platforms State of the Union video it was mentioned that booting into a 3rd party OS will be possible. If Windows 10 on ARM supports Apple's new hardware driver-wise, there's no reason it won't run both virtualized and on bare metal.
 
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matram

macrumors 6502a
Sep 18, 2011
781
416
Sweden
A lot of reasons for opening up a Windows VM is to run that one obscure application your fiancé department requires you to use to sign of a PO and it is x86 code that runs on a specific version of Windows. ARM Windows is not a replacement for full Windows.

I guess it would be technically possible to run Windows for ARM if Microsoft allows it and Apple / Parallels provide drivers. But most SW people want to run is not available on the ARM version.

Apple has clearly stated that Rosetta will NOT translate VM, so full windows would require some third party to do a huge work.
 

rhor

macrumors member
Dec 1, 2017
31
19
I guess it would be technically possible to run Windows for ARM if Microsoft allows it and Apple / Parallels provide drivers. But most SW people want to run is not available on the ARM version.

Apple has clearly stated that Rosetta will NOT translate VM, so full windows would require some third party to do a huge work.

Why wouldn't it be available? Windows 10 on ARM runs all x86 apps through emulation. x64 apps won't run for now, but as ARM chips are getting more and more powerful, that's bound to change at some point, too!
Most apps people run these days are still x86, or at least support it. x64 only apps on Windows are actually quite rare. Modern games and certain Workstation apps come to mind.
 
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