Lenovo X1 Extreme

[c0ppo]

Agreed, the X1E, has been the best laptop i've owned. In some ways its surpassed how I felt about my 2012 rMBP which I've long said it was the best laptop i've ever owned. The Thinkpad is surpassing that simply because the 2012 MBP wasn't really upgradeable, (ram no SSD yes) but the X1E has replaceable ram, ssd, and battery.

I agree with you. Lenovo has those advantages.
But bare in mind the next argument: X1E brings nothing new to the laptop universe.

First rMBP actually brought something new and really great - high res screens on laptop market.
And while it wasn't great at start (usually nothing new is great at start!), it was something new, useful and really great. Sure OSX at the time lagged behind, so we had some lag... But I have to give Apple credit where credit is due. They went with retina screens almost fully ready, and within a year, 99,99% of the apps supported retina screens, while even to this day, windows scaling is a complete joke.

And I will give Apple credit once again for sticking with the resolution to this day, because I find 4K to be useless on laptops, while taxing on hardware.

But with all that said, only thing today that would get me to buy any MBP is Mac OS. And that is if Apple gets their hardware right. But I gave up all hopes of that ever happening, since I really have no intentions on paying 100% premium on hardware that I need.

With X1E I get all that I want from a laptop, except Mac OS. But without Mac OS I can get by and live. But without ports, at least good keyboard and without at least being able to upgrade/fix some stuff by myself, I refuse to live without.

So with all tha said, chances of Apple coming up with MBP for my needs are slim to zero. Mac Mini? Great! I love that little thing. But MBP? When compared to something like X1E, it's a complete joke.

 

[maflynn]

No question the 2012 rmbp represented some ground breaking technology and apple definitely deserves credit

In the thinkpad's case, my thinking is that it's the execution rather then cutting edge. The laptop is fast, relatively cool, stable and a solid laptop with a great mixture of ports. The keyboard is the best it's even water resistant. The upgradeability is awesome

I'm not knocking other laptops but the strengths of the X1E aligns nicely with my needs

 

[hajime]

I agree with you. Lenovo has those advantages.
But bare in mind the next argument: X1E brings nothing new to the laptop universe.

First rMBP actually brought something new and really great - high res screens on laptop market.
And while it wasn't great at start (usually nothing new is great at start!), it was something new, useful and really great. Sure OSX at the time lagged behind, so we had some lag... But I have to give Apple credit where credit is due. They went with retina screens almost fully ready, and within a year, 99,99% of the apps supported retina screens, while even to this day, windows scaling is a complete joke.

And I will give Apple credit once again for sticking with the resolution to this day, because I find 4K to be useless on laptops, while taxing on hardware.

But with all that said, only thing today that would get me to buy any MBP is Mac OS. And that is if Apple gets their hardware right. But I gave up all hopes of that ever happening, since I really have no intentions on paying 100% premium on hardware that I need.

With X1E I get all that I want from a laptop, except Mac OS. But without Mac OS I can get by and live. But without ports, at least good keyboard and without at least being able to upgrade/fix some stuff by myself, I refuse to live without.

So with all tha said, chances of Apple coming up with MBP for my needs are slim to zero. Mac Mini? Great! I love that little thing. But MBP? When compared to something like X1E, it's a complete joke.

Somebody claimed that he got a X1E Hackintosh.
[doublepost=1557592848][/doublepost]I asked several Lenovo salesperson about the usb-c rechargeable pen. They said that it does not exit yet. At last an agent pointed me to the Lenovo Pen Pro which is rechargeable and works very well with X1E. Highly recommended.

 

[hajime]

Perhaps yesterday the computer was doing something in the background which caused the fans to kick off. Today it sounds normal.

Before undervolting it's wise to run a simple and quick benchmark (not a stress test) to determine base idle temperature. There is a test like this built into XTU (and probably Throttlestop, but I haven't used it). Do the same after undervolting (again, with no other applications running) to determine the temperature saving. If you're seeing a minimal saving (a couple of degrees) then there could be an issue with thermal paste. You've already undervolted but it's easy enough to zero it and repeat the exercise with the temp markers.

I think you need to keep testing your computer doing the tasks you normally do, because temporary fan over-activity is pretty common and often connected to either behind the scenes updates or virus scans, or an errant process running.

I have done the tests using XTU you mentioned. Here are the results:

Before undervolting:
XTU: 1634 Marks
Max frequency: 3.95 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 81C

After undervolting (-150mv):
XTU: 1668 Marks
Max frequency: 3.66 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 81C again


Hi @LindsayD How to interpret the results? Poor thermal paste job? Why after undervolting, the Max frequency became lower? Is it supposed to be like that? It seems that even after undervolting, the XTU marks only increased by a small amount. Perhaps also due to poor thermal paste job?
[doublepost=1557605692][/doublepost]

For W10 why don't you use ThrottleStop, undervolt the CPU and reduce the Turbo limits in FIVR, you will then achieve the result your looking for 4k a display with a CPU that is less power hungry.

View attachment 799027

Q-6

Hi Q-6@ How to determine the values of those Turbo Ratio Limits? By default, mine are: 47, 43, 42, 42, 41, 41, 40.

 

[c0ppo]

In the thinkpad's case, my thinking is that it's the execution rather then cutting edge. The laptop is fast, relatively cool, stable and a solid laptop with a great mixture of ports. The keyboard is the best it's even water resistant. The upgradeability is awesome

+

I'm not knocking other laptops but the strengths of the X1E aligns nicely with my needs

Couldn't agree more with your statements. That is why I got X1E, and that is why I was one of the guys that recommended for you to purchase one as well. Everything works like a charm, but not just that, I really enjoy and love working on this device. A joy to use. And that says a lot.

Somebody claimed that he got a X1E Hackintosh.

Never even looked into hackintoshing my X1E. While probably possible, why would I waste my time on kexts and similar stuff, when a simple macOS upgrade could ruin everything? And as far as I know, Mojave doesn't even have drivers for nVidia cards. Usual Apple wars vs other companies. Not defending nVidia in this case, they are as shady as Apple.

But I really don't care about nVidia vs Apple, so I don't care about hackintosh at all. Been there, done that. If I was 15 years younger, Mac OS High Sierra would probably already be running on my device. But now I don't have any will to tinker at all, so PopOS and Windows will do, since they work out of the box. Don't even have to tinker with something basic as drivers. Everything works.

 

[LindsayD]

@hajime, I know this sounds silly (I'm not familiar with Throttlestop) but after applying the undervolt did you make sure to turn it on (apply and save)? It's easy to forget that step.

I think the next step might be to undervolt your GPU and see if that makes a difference.

Even with a bad thermal paste job I would expect an undervolt of CPU and GPU to at least reduce the temperature by a couple of degrees. It's hard to say what's going on.

 

[hajime]

@hajime, I know this sounds silly (I'm not familiar with Throttlestop) but after applying the undervolt did you make sure to turn it on (apply and save)? It's easy to forget that step.

I think the next step might be to undervolt your GPU and see if that makes a difference.

Even with a bad thermal paste job I would expect an undervolt of CPU and GPU to at least reduce the temperature by a couple of degrees. It's hard to say what's going on.

I think I have turned it on. I checked "OK - Save voltages immediately" at the bottom right. I also set it up so that when Windows is booted, it launches automatically. On the main menu, there is a box "Turn on". Clicking it shows "Turn off". Is showing "Turn on" means it is on?

How to undervolt GPU?

One strange thing is that even I replaced the thermal paste using Kryonaut, the temperature is the same! Perhaps I did a ****** thermal job as Lenovo's factory worker. It was quite difficult to control the Kryonaut. Either it does not come out of come out a lot and spill everywhere.

It also seems to be that even I set both under AC and on battery to "Better performance", my machine has higher chance of jet engine noise when it is plugged into an AC adapter than when it is on battery. Is this normal? How can I make the fans behave like the machine were on battery even it is on AC adapter?

Here are the results:

Cinebench R15
-----------------
Before undervolting: OpenCL 95.95 fps, CPU 1033cb.
After undervolting by -150mV: OpenCL 103.27 fps, CPU 1037cb

[After re-pasting]
Before undervolting: OpenCL 103.07, CPU 1118cb.
After undervolting by -150mV: OpenCL 102.24 fps, CPU 1144cb

XTU
----
Before undervolting (original thermal paste):
XTU: 1634 Marks
Max frequency: 3.95 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 81C

After undervolting (-150mv, original thermal paste):
XTU: 1668 Marks
Max frequency: 3.66 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 81C

[After re-pasting using Krynaut]
Before undervolting
XTU: 1696 Marks
Max frequency: 3.65 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 81C

After undervolting (-150mv):
XTU: 1696 Marks
Max frequency: 3.94 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 80C

 

[lcseds]

Return the X1E. It is not acceptable for you. Find a computer where you don't have to go all through this. It won't be an X1E or an XPS15. It's the only way to be happy.

 

[TSE]

I have done the tests using XTU you mentioned. Here are the results:

Before undervolting:
XTU: 1634 Marks
Max frequency: 3.95 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 81C

After undervolting (-150mv):
XTU: 1668 Marks
Max frequency: 3.66 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 81C again


Hi @LindsayD How to interpret the results? Poor thermal paste job? Why after undervolting, the Max frequency became lower? Is it supposed to be like that? It seems that even after undervolting, the XTU marks only increased by a small amount. Perhaps also due to poor thermal paste job?
[doublepost=1557605692][/doublepost]

Hi Q-6@ How to determine the values of those Turbo Ratio Limits? By default, mine are: 47, 43, 42, 42, 41, 41, 40.

Dude. If that’s your thermal paste job, you need to fix that immediately. Just make a small pea shape and don’t use too much. Don’t lift up the heat sink or move it around after.

Please learn and research thermal paste jobs and redo it. Guaranteed you are getting poor results from that.

 

[LindsayD]

@hajime, if you run your machine on 'better performance' mode in the battery setting it will run hotter and lounder. When on battery I set this to towards 'best battery life' so the scale is about a third of the way in. When on AC I set it in the middle. There are other tweaks mentioned earlier in the thread.

Your machine sounds like it's already behaving perfectly well in terms of fan noise and your temperatures look normal so repasting would not really be worthwhile, but the paste needs to be very thin. As said a tiny dot is enough for the components, when put together, to distribute the paste across the surface evenly.

Repasting doesn't always make a difference, unless the original paste job is really bad or has degraded.

You said your machine is quiet when on battery and the fan comes on occasionally when on AC, so where does the issue with fan noise lie? Nothing else with the X1E component and feature set will be any quieter in my experience. This is becoming a circular discussion and I don't think there is anything else which we can say.

 

[maflynn]

so PopOS and Windows will do,

So what does pop_os give you that ubuntu doesn't? I loaded PopOS on an old laptop to try it out and its nice, but its based on ubuntu. I'm more used to ubuntu in some respects, like the doc always being present.

Also what are you doing in Pop and not windows?
[doublepost=1557657759][/doublepost]@hajime,
You've done some significant surgery on your X1E, are you entirely sure you can now return it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you removed the fabric (I would assume you'd put it back) and now you've repasted it as well. Personally, if it was giving you coil whine and the fans bothered you so much, I would have just returning it w/o all that messing around. No amount of tinkering is going to remove the fans from spinning up. The Coffee Lake processors and nvidia GPU run hot and obviously the Lenovo engineers determined that fans were needed for optimal cooling.

 

[hajime]

I re-do the thermal paste. When plugged to AC and in better performance mode (done it before before LindsayD replied), I noticed that the benchmark performance is worse, the machine was hotter, max frequency is higher but the machine became quieter?! In first trial of thermal paste, lots of power throttling but with much less thermal paste, power throttling rarely happened.


XTU
----
Before undervolting (2nd round of thermal paste without undervolting):
XTU: 1493 Marks
Max frequency: 4.1 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 83C

After undervolting (-150mv, 2nd round of thermal paste):
XTU: 1597 Marks
Max frequency: 3.97 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 80C


Before undervolting (2nd thermal paste): OpenGL 84.35 fps, CPU 631 cb.
After undervolting by -150mV (2nd thermal paste): OpenGL 85.91 fps, CPU 780 cb



Now, I turned to best performance while plugged to AC:
Noticed lots of power throttling during benchmarking
--------------------------------------------------------------
Before undervolting (2nd round of thermal paste without undervolting):
XTU: 1662 Marks
Max frequency: 4.14 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 99C

After undervolting (-150mv, 2nd round of thermal paste):
XTU: 1662 Marks
Max frequency: 4.13 GHz
Highest CPU temp: 100C


Before undervolting (2nd thermal paste): OpenGL 99.74 fps, CPU 1016 cb.
After undervolting by -150mV (2nd thermal paste): OpenGL 101.94 fps, CPU 1019 cb


Does this sound right?
[doublepost=1557660037][/doublepost]

So what does pop_os give you that ubuntu doesn't? I loaded PopOS on an old laptop to try it out and its nice, but its based on ubuntu. I'm more used to ubuntu in some respects, like the doc always being present.

Also what are you doing in Pop and not windows?
[doublepost=1557657759][/doublepost]@hajime,
You've done some significant surgery on your X1E, are you entirely sure you can now return it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you removed the fabric (I would assume you'd put it back) and now you've repasted it as well. Personally, if it was giving you coil whine and the fans bothered you so much, I would have just returning it w/o all that messing around. No amount of tinkering is going to remove the fans from spinning up. The Coffee Lake processors and nvidia GPU run hot and obviously the Lenovo engineers determined that fans were needed for optimal cooling.

Today, I will test how it goes under Linux to get an impression on how the machine performances.

Lenovo told me that I can return the X1E, get another one hopefully without coil whine or just get a refund. They mentioned that they tried to fix the coil whine issue but I got one with such issue. However, what do I get if I forget about the X1E? I heard from them that I am not the only one with a defective touch screen on the Yoga C930. Issues of no signal when connecting to a projector is also not uncommon. The headquarter is gathering my machine to test what happened to determine how widespread the issues are. If I wait until X1E Gen 2 which should be released in August, there is a possibility that I will need to wait longer because they usually do not release the 4K model at the beginning, just like what happened to X1E Gen1 and T590. I will just keep waiting and waste the entire summer. This time I will not wait for review because reviews for X1E Gen 2 were delayed for over a month and none of the original reviewers mentioned about fan noise issue which many customers complained when they got the first batch of machines.


Is i7-8550U CPU go enough for doing SQL related work?

 

[maflynn]

what do I get if I forget about the X1E?

Why not get a passively cooled laptop that does not have fans or one of the surface models

If I wait until X1E Gen 2

What will that give you? You'll still have fans and noise

 

[hajime]

Why not get a passively cooled laptop that dose not have fans or one of the surface models


What will that give you? You'll still have fans and noise

Considered SB2 several times but MS Canada keeps telling me that in case the machine needs repairing, they will give a refurbished unit. Also not happy to spend that much money on a machine that is 2 year old and has at most only 1TB SSD, non-replaceable battery and storage.

Perhaps better thermal with the latest generation of mobile CPU/GPU. Asides from that, I don't expect much different. Since it is just three months from now (assuming that they have 4K model at the beginning), it is tempting.

Even the Yoga C930 with U CPU, sometimes it also had fan noise but not as loud as the X1E. It is more portable than the X1E. The weight different is very noticable. So far, with "better performance" set for both AC and on battery, it *seems* to be that the X1E has more annoying noisy fan and happen more often when it is plugged in to an AC adapter than when it is on battery. Is this behavior the same to all of you?

 

[LindsayD]

So far, with "better performance" set for both AC and on battery, it *seems* to be that the X1E has more annoying noisy fan and happen more often when it is plugged in to an AC adapter than when it is on battery. Is this behavior the same to all of you?

This has already been answered. It is normal to have more fan activity when plugged in, because charging generates heat. That is the case even when you've set the battery slider to 'better battery performance' and it will be the same with any laptop (assuming it has a fan).

How will the Gen2 X1E be quieter? That makes no rational sense, it will still be a powerful laptop with similar or more powerful components which generate the same (or more) heat and the same (or more) coil whine. That is the case with the newer GPUs in the latest gaming laptops.

Also, coil whine cannot be fixed - you either have it or you don't and there is no remedy for it as far as I know, other than filling the gaps in the transistors with glue. It can also start for no reason months or years after buying the device.

If your X1E has coil whine which annoys you then send it back. If your X1E no longer has coil whine/hiss but has intermitted fan activity when plugged in it is normal.

There are companies which do laptop hire, so maybe test driving a couple of different ones, that will give you a good idea of performance although it will not account for individual variance between machines of the same model.

 

[hajime]

This has already been answered. It is normal to have more fan activity when plugged in, because charging generates heat. That is the case even when you've set the battery slider to 'better battery performance' and it will be the same with any laptop (assuming it has a fan).

How will the Gen2 X1E be quieter? That makes no rational sense, it will still be a powerful laptop with similar or more powerful components which generate the same (or more) heat and the same (or more) coil whine. That is the case with the newer GPUs in the latest gaming laptops.

Also, coil whine cannot be fixed - you either have it or you don't and there is no remedy for it as far as I know, other than filling the gaps in the transistors with glue. It can also start for no reason months or years after buying the device.

If your X1E has coil whine which annoys you then send it back. If your X1E no longer has coil whine/hiss but has intermitted fan activity when plugged in it is normal.

There are companies which do laptop hire, so maybe test driving a couple of different ones, that will give you a good idea of performance although it will not account for individual variance between machines of the same model.

More fan noise under Linux. It just drives me crazy. Given the amount of time I have spent on the X1E to change various things and still not happy with it, I have to give it up.

Will laptop with i7-8550U and Nvidia GTX1050 4GB be better for me?

 

[maflynn]

I picked up the 970 ssd, I'm looking forward to loading Linux

 

[hajime]

I picked up the 970 ssd, I'm looking forward to loading Linux

On mine, constant noisy fan even playing non-4K videos. No further testing is needed. I am packing it up to send it back.

Good luck!

 

[Never mind]

Again, buy the iPad Pro and be done with it. You have a been unhappy since at least October 2018, so do yourself a favor, either deal with it (Buy Ear Plugs) or get yourself an iPad.

 

[hajime]

Again, buy the iPad Pro and be done with it. You have a been unhappy since at least October 2018, so do yourself a favor, either deal with it (Buy Ear Plugs) or get yourself an iPad.

I have an iPad Pro 12.9" for a year already. I cannot do computer programming nor compile codes using it. Thanks.


I am having a very bad headache and feel very sick due to the stress in using the X1E again. I will return it ASAP. Even somebody give it to me for free, I will just say thanks and reject the offer. Probably bye bye this thread.

 

[TSE]

I have an iPad Pro 12.9" for a year already. I cannot do computer programming nor compile codes using it. Thanks.


I am having a very bad headache and feel very sick due to the stress in using the X1E again. I will return it ASAP. Even somebody give it to me for free, I will just say thanks and reject the offer. Probably bye bye this thread.

Honestly just ask yourself this. What's more likely: random strangers on the internet trying to hurt your feelings and cause you stress by recommending you products? Or, as a community, are recommending you options that would would work better for you?

You have impossible standards for a laptop. You won't ever be happy with what you are looking for. You already have a super powerful desktop, as you said yours has a RTX GPU. We recommend you other options, such as PCs that are passively cooled. iPad Pros. Or, if you really want to have a notebook with either H series, processors, or a dedicated GPU, you are going to have to live with fan noise, which isn't even that big of a deal.

We have been telling you for months that operating an X1e creates noise. You go ahead and buy one anyways, and what do you know? There's fan noise. And not only do you just return it, but you do a thermal paste job that is even worse than the one from the factory. You obviously don't listen to anyone. Nor do you educate yourself on how to do proper procedure, so maybe take the stress, and "sickness" you feel as an indication that you might be going about this whole purchasing saga the wrong way, and adjust your values.

And after all, it's just a laptop. Please, we are here to help you, but I get a sense that you are just trolling at this point, either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[SDColorado]

Considered SB2 several times but MS Canada keeps telling me that in case the machine needs repairing, they will give a refurbished unit.

I am still not sure I understand your hangup with this aspect. I am not 100% sure if the one I received as a replacement was "new" or "refurbished." It came in a white box similar to the FedEx laptop shipping boxes with the cardboard backing and shrink wrap holding the machine to it.

There was not a single mark, blemish, ding, scratch, scuff or stray piece of dust on it. Battery wear was 0%. In short, if it was *not* new and was refurbished, aside from not having the retail box (which I still have from the original unit), it was indistinguishable from new. How that is somehow worse than getting your own used 2-year-old device back, with 2-years of wear and tear, 2 years of battery cycles, etc., I am really not sure. But you do seem to have a phobia over fan noise and refurbishment

 

[LindsayD]

@hajime

If you are ever in the position of having a repair (and to be fair, that is unlikely in most cases) to your Microsoft unit and if they did send you a refurbished unit you weren't happy with - then you simply get in touch with Microsoft and request they exchange it. If there is any issue at all with the replacement unit there is no reason at all why they would not send you another one. I feel you are making too much out of potential issues.

However if you got one of the more powerful Surface products they do have fans and therefore still the potential for some noise (and coil whine). The fan may not be as loud as the X1E fans, but still audible at times.

 

[LindsayD]

Some necessary building work on my home has delayed the replacement of my X1E and in fact I’m considering taking a look at the pre-owned market in order to make a saving.

I’d appreciate any advice or comments about buying used. As I understand it the factory three-year warranty follows the machine, not the owner. So by default I would get the remaining warranty as well. I’m not sure how I would register it though, if the previous owner has registered it and if the store has no control over that. I’m also wondering if there is a way to look up whether the machine has been returned for any reason or has undergone repair?

Obviously I would only buy from a store which would let me return it if I felt it wasn’t as described.

 

[maflynn]

Here's what I'm seeing.

View attachment 824548

Here's my updated CrystalDiskMark benchmark of the 970 pro. Results are generally better then my stock drive, though some of the numbers are tad surprising. I've got the drive is a tad full, which may be why I'm seeing some numbers a bit slower. I'm moving my data around as I prep the stock drive for repartitioning.