Leopard Market Update (Way Off-Topic Now)

[AmazingHenry]

EDIT: It's looking like I will continue to develop it. Existing copies will still continue to work, however the website will remain down. I'm working on a brand new, rewritten Leopard Market.
EDIT: I'm done with the Leopard Market. It is no more and all copies will stop working sometime on November 12.

OK, so I'm sure that most people on this forum totally forgot about this, and very few even care. But for the 1 or 2 people out there using the Leopard Market (my App Store for Leopard), I have some updates. I've been talking with some people originally working on the project (@gavinstubbs09 and @Gamer9430) and it's unclear what the future is at this point. It's looking like I'll keep developing it, however it will be distributed on the PPC Archive website. But I'm not really sure, and I haven't heard anything from them in awhile (probably very busy on the macOS Sierra Theme). So I'm really. not sure what's going to happen. I do this: The Leopard Market is not becoming a foxbox. It is staying a regular OS X application. And the Leopard Market does have a future. You will see updates at some point.

That's my update. Now, on to another thing. This whole "drag this link to your browser" thing is not convenient at all. You're better off using a website, like the PPC Archive. To fix this problem, I'm looking for a volunteer with Objective-C experience who can also work with Xcode 3.1. Maybe we can get an actual built-in downloader, like the App Store. I would do it myself but I just don't know enough about Mac programming.
Any volunteers are appreciated. Thanks so much!

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read this. Sorry to my few users for the lack of updates, but at least you have something to look forward to soon!

 

[Gamer9430]

Maybe there's a bigger reason as to why you haven't heard from us from what shows on the surface...

 

[AmazingHenry]

Maybe there's a bigger reason as to why you haven't heard from us from what shows on the surface...

????

 

[128keaton]

????

Ok, I've been pretty neutral, but I think the general consensus is that you've taken a project out of the hands of the people involved. None of this was explicitly stated as open source, you didn't offer your help, and you've had a complete disregard for the creators of the project. Your first post on the original Leopard Market thread had an air of 'umm why isn't this finished guys, any reason?'. Maybe opinions of you have been tainted by that, but I think you need to be very careful with your next posts, consider asking forgiveness from the project creators.

 

[AmazingHenry]

Ok, I've been pretty neutral, but I think the general consensus is that you've taken a project out of the hands of the people involved. None of this was explicitly stated as open source, you didn't offer your help, and you've had a complete disregard for the creators of the project. Your first post on the original Leopard Market thread had an air of 'umm why isn't this finished guys, any reason?'. Maybe opinions of you have been tainted by that, but I think you need to be very careful with your next posts, consider asking forgiveness from the project creators.

You're totally right about that. I apologize for that post. I did not have the right to ask in that way. And if anybody wants the Leopard Market to get taken down, it will be. I probably should've checked with the other creators before starting on it. I had no idea that was how you felt, to be honest.

 

[Gamer9430]

And idk, maybe it's the fact that none of your recent projects are anything more than reskins of WebKit, with less functionality... you also jump the gun and reply to almost every thread with mis-information and not-necessary/rather dumb posts. We want people that come to this forum to either ask for help, help others, or help strengthen the community. This is a very tight-knit group (mostly thanks to something underground I started with several members of this subform), and we get annoyed when people come in and try to ruin a good thing. You by far aren't the worst we've seen lately, but you do get annoying with your unnecessary postings to every thread. Sometimes, you are indeed helpful, like a few times (not every time) with the Sierra theme thread. Other times, as I said, your postings spread misinformation and nonsense, two things we work hard to prevent around here for newcomers who are in seek of help. All I'm trying to say is that you do get annoying at times, and this post is mostly trying to bring it to your attention because you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that not many people around here like you...

 

[Gamer9430]

You're totally right about that. I apologize for that post. I did not have the right to ask in that way. And if anybody wants the Leopard Market to get taken down, it will be. I probably should've checked with the other creators before starting on it. I had no idea that was how you felt, to be honest.

Yes, this is exactly the way we felt. We're unsure what we want to do with it at this very moment, and we don't have an unlimited amount of time in the day as you seem to have. The PPC archive team needs to discuss the future of this project in the coming days...

 

[AmazingHenry]

Yes, this is exactly the way we felt. We're unsure what we want to do with it at this very moment, and we don't have an unlimited amount of time in the day as you seem to have. The PPC archive team needs to discuss the future of this project in the coming days...

Should the website go down?

 

[Gamer9430]

Should the website go down?

As I said, The Archive team will need to talk about it over the course of the next few days... after that, we'll decide the fate of this project.

 

[AmazingHenry]

How entertaining this must be to everyone else on this forum... Or was this one of these posts?

you also jump the gun and reply to almost every thread with mis-information and not-necessary/rather dumb posts

 

[0248294]

I'm fully agreeing with @Gamer9430. We in the tightly-knit PPC community collectively are on the same page regarding this. That's all I'll say.

 

[AmazingHenry]

...and we don't have an unlimited amount of time in the day as you seem to have

You're not blaming me for this, are you? It sure sounds like it.

 

[bunnspecial]

@HFTaylor12

I will just throw in my two cents. I've noticed that in your posts here, you seem to have very little patience for anything getting finished considering the number of "any updates?" and "What's happening with this" and the like that you seem to make on threads with very little time having passed since the last update on it.

I'm not actively involved in a lot of these projects discussed here publicly, but do have a lot going on behind the scenes in terms of hardware projects and the like. In fact, many of my projects are ideas that @LightBulbFun has and he and I work together a lot on them because I have the hardware to test them(and in many cases rare hardware). I also have projects of my own initiative. I tend to not talk about them on here until they're finished. As an example, @LightBulbFun and I are currently working toward getting Leopard running on a Lombard PowerBook-something that I can find scant evidence of ever having been done before. I could give a lot of other examples.

In any case, though, I work a "40 hour a week" job that's often more like 50. I have a classic car that gets a lot of my attention. I'm active in my church and have several other hobbies with only so much time to split between them. That's not to mention that sometimes I enjoy actually using my computers rather than tinkering with them, and I love getting my old car out and driving it in addition to working on it(this is prime driving season for a convertible sports car).

In my world, projects get done when they get done-and that is when I have the motivation, time, and am actually able to make some progress. Sometimes I work on something but don't make any real progress so don't report on it publicly.

I guess what I'm saying is that asking about incessantly stuff that that for a lot of us has to take a back seat to life in general tends to rub me the wrong way, and I'm not the only one like that. You've managed to do that to a LOT of folks here for that very reason. Again, everyone's situation is different but most of the folks working on this have work and/or school plus other things that take precedence. Stuff like the Leopard market is conceptually interesting and useful, but considering where it falls in priority.

With all of that said, though, when someone DOES stall on a project it doesn't mean that they want someone else barging in and taking over, which again is something that you seem to have done. Again project situation is different since mine usually require physical hardware, but consider what you're doing to be analogous to me walking into my house to find @LightBulbFun messing around in Open Firmware on my 8600.

 

[Gamer9430]

@bunnspecial said it better than I ever could have... 100% accurate and perfectly said

 

[Gamer9430]

Also, entertainment purposes only? You do know we're all serious about what we're saying, correct?

 

[redheeler]

I don't understand why someone is getting so much hate for wanting to start his own branch of this project. The goal here should be solely to extend the life of these Macs; this is a community of hobbyists, not closed-source proprietary software developers. But I do agree the original project starter should be given at least partial credit.

 

[AmazingHenry]

Also, entertainment purposes only? You do know we're all serious about what we're saying, correct?

Yes, I meant to anybody else on this forum that is not involved.
[doublepost=1478865977][/doublepost]OK, everyone, I'm sorry for the way I've been acting here if this is how you all felt. I should not of replied to the first Leopard Market thread in the way that I had. There are also many other posts that I shouldn't of posted (including the unnecessary, dumb ones). I'll tell you this: I'll be much more careful about my next posts after this experience. Also, I'm done with the Leopard Market. If it's going to generate this much hate for me then I'm not doing it. The website is going down now and any existing copies will stop working sometime tomorrow. I'm also done with my WebKit projects until I can learn more about Mac programing. They're actually pretty stupid. Sorry again for all of my rude/dumb/misinformation posts.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I find it a bit sad that someone should be beaten down on here for being enthusiastic, (sometimes) naive, overly keen and premature with their software projects.
From what I've read HFTaylor12 wasn't wilfully trying to steal credit for others work and asked for permission to proceed etc - and even if that was the impression given, it seemed to be for proactive and helpful reasons for this community of enthusiasts.

I don't remember HFTaylor12 ever being rude, arrogant, obnoxious or antagonistic and to his credit, has taken the recent criticism in his stride.

I'd also add, you've no idea who's behind that forum member name - how would you feel if you learned that user was mentally/physically handicapped or was in a recovery process from some trauma or other and being on the forum was one way to return to some normality?

 

[pochopsp]

I'm totally agreeing with @redheeler and @Dronecatcher
I appreciate a lot the work of PPC archive and of a lot of this forum users. We are forgetting the aim of this forum: help each other to get our PPC Macs going on until they die...
I really loved the way this forum allowed me to use dropbox, coreplayer, and other apps, or how @eyoungren helped to speed up my TenfourFox installation.
@HFTaylor12 has always been kind with everyone, and wanted to make a useful app, asking for a permission to the original project founder.

We should leave the swords in the ground and help each other, like we always did.

To everyone who want to do or develop something for this platform: go on, you have our best wishes!

 

[eyoungren]

…or how @eyoungren helped to speed up my TenfourFox installation.

Thank you for the mention.

For all of us participating in or reading this thread…

I'm just going to say the following and then leave it at that. I generally try to stay out of 'project' discussions and the direction this thread has taken is why.

I have been on forums since I was 14 (1984). I have seen the introduction of projects that succeeded and projects that failed. In between I have seen the animosity, rancor, discord and general mayhem failing projects have caused and the good will, loyalty and increased collaboration of successful projects.

I have learned to stay out of it.

If I can help I will contribute privately. If I cannot, those working the project do not need another voice of opinion. The project will either succeed or it will fail. In either case there may be hurt feelings.

I value too many of you as friends and fellow PowerPC users to jeopardize those relationships.

This is also one of the reasons I am an infrequent participant in some of the alternate forms of communication that exist here.

I wish success for all projects. But there are reasons people like Matt and zen and rabidz7 are no longer here or at least active participants.

If you value being a part of what is a very small community at this point, learn to identify the pitfalls inherent in forum discussions and moderate your participation as it warrants.

That's all I have to say. I'm out on this…

 

[Gamer9430]

Alright, well now it seems like it seems like our message is being taken the wrong way. I'm not saying HFTaylor isn't nice, I'm not trying to put down his projects. I'm happy there is enthusiasm for trying to keep PowerPC going. What I'm trying to convey is that, while the projects are good ideas, their initial planning is showing that they aren't really necessary. The themes are progressing nicely, although it now seems like @swamprock has quit the forums or something like that being that he deleted some of his posts and removed his profile picture. The Leopard Market original concept was promising, but we didn't have anyone with any experience or time to code the market. @128keaton felt it was a good idea to pass it forward to Henry being that he has the time and enthusiasm to do it. Gavin and I were a bit annoyed that Keaton gave it away, but in reality, it made sense since both of us don't have time or coding knowledge to build it. We were willing to work with Henry, but we were short on time, and his concept didn't seem overly promising being that it was essentially WebKit boxed into an app, with limited functionality in this first beta. While it may have eventually evolved into something else and closer to the original concept, at this moment we weren't sure about its future. We also feared it would kill Gavin's PowerPC Archive, something he had dedicated a lot of time (and money for hosting it), which paid off as it's the #1 resource for PowerPC apps. In regards to the fast browser for G3, again, in its current stage, it only appears to be a rebox of WebKit on Tiger, which is slow and dated to begin with. However, it may have eventually evolved into something useful. I do agree that browsing on a G3 is painful, and something like that would be helpful in fixing that problem.

I appreciate that Henry said he would be more careful with his future posts. What I was asking was for him to consider thinking before posting. I think everyone, including myself, need to think before posting. I know not everyone will, but all I ask is that we try our best. I will fully admit I need to as well.

On a final note, I was not intending to make anyone feel bad, but rather, I was intending to call attention to some issues in an attempt to resolve them. I was not trying to hose down Henry's enthusiasm and progress on certain projects, nor was I asking him to stop posting altogether. If I have offended anyone I offer up my sincere apologies. I don't want to see this community be torn apart, especially being that we are extremely tight knit and one of the best communities on MR.

 

[Goftrey]

Thank you for the mention.

For all of us participating in or reading this thread…

I'm just going to say the following and then leave it at that. I generally try to stay out of 'project' discussions and the direction this thread has taken is why.

I have been on forums since I was 14 (1984). I have seen the introduction of projects that succeeded and projects that failed. In between I have seen the animosity, rancor, discord and general mayhem failing projects have caused and the good will, loyalty and increased collaboration of successful projects.

I have learned to stay out of it.

If I can help I will contribute privately. If I cannot, those working the project do not need another voice of opinion. The project will either succeed or it will fail. In either case there may be hurt feelings.

I value too many of you as friends and fellow PowerPC users to jeopardize those relationships.

This is also one of the reasons I am an infrequent participant in some of the alternate forms of communication that exist here.

I wish success for all projects. But there are reasons people like Matt and zen and rabidz7 are no longer here or at least active participants.

If you value being a part of what is a very small community at this point, learn to identify the pitfalls inherent in forum discussions and moderate your participation as it warrants.

That's all I have to say. I'm out on this…

Hit the nail on the head here. I think a lot of the (generally younger) people who sign up and begin getting involved here (myself included back in 2011) do so because they've just found a new love and passion for these older machines & the incredible sense of community that comes with owning one, and therefore find themselves wanting to absorb as much information and get involved with as much as possible as soon as possible.

Retrospectively looking back to some of my old posts from 2011/12 when I was still learning dozens of new things every single day it makes me cringe at how naively I jumped in to everything, and to the older more experienced crowd I totally understand how that could get under their skin. But I don't think enthusiasm and naivety should be stumped at all. If anything it should be embraced. If we start alienating and intimidating those who simply want to learn we'll end up being no better off than the number of ignorant elitists that were around these parts a few years ago.

 

[AmazingHenry]

Alright, well now it seems like it seems like our message is being taken the wrong way. I'm not saying HFTaylor isn't nice, I'm not trying to put down his projects. I'm happy there is enthusiasm for trying to keep PowerPC going. What I'm trying to convey is that, while the projects are good ideas, their initial planning is showing that they aren't really necessary. The themes are progressing nicely, although it now seems like @swamprock has quit the forums or something like that being that he deleted some of his posts and removed his profile picture. The Leopard Market original concept was promising, but we didn't have anyone with any experience or time to code the market. @128keaton felt it was a good idea to pass it forward to Henry being that he has the time and enthusiasm to do it. Gavin and I were a bit annoyed that Keaton gave it away, but in reality, it made sense since both of us don't have time or coding knowledge to build it. We were willing to work with Henry, but we were short on time, and his concept didn't seem overly promising being that it was essentially WebKit boxed into an app, with limited functionality in this first beta. While it may have eventually evolved into something else and closer to the original concept, at this moment we weren't sure about its future. We also feared it would kill Gavin's PowerPC Archive, something he had dedicated a lot of time (and money for hosting it), which paid off as it's the #1 resource for PowerPC apps. In regards to the fast browser for G3, again, in its current stage, it only appears to be a rebox of WebKit on Tiger, which is slow and dated to begin with. However, it may have eventually evolved into something useful. I do agree that browsing on a G3 is painful, and something like that would be helpful in fixing that problem.

I appreciate that Henry said he would be more careful with his future posts. What I was asking was for him to consider thinking before posting. I think everyone, including myself, need to think before posting. I know not everyone will, but all I ask is that we try our best. I will fully admit I need to as well.

On a final note, I was not intending to make anyone feel bad, but rather, I was intending to call attention to some issues in an attempt to resolve them. I was not trying to hose down Henry's enthusiasm and progress on certain projects, nor was I asking him to stop posting altogether. If I have offended anyone I offer up my sincere apologies. I don't want to see this community be torn apart, especially being that we are extremely tight knit and one of the best communities on MR.

Yes, I know, the first (and current) Leopard Market is horrible. I'm currently trying to learn more about Mac programming, and I was going to try and improve the Market as I learned more. As for the G3 web browser, @128keaton described what I was trying to do really well: a more flexible TenFourFoxBox. The plan was to make it a "foxbox" type application that could go to any website without setup. And over time I'd improve it and maybe even make it useable as a main browser. The first version of any software I make or had made is/was always terrible. I like to start simple, and improve over time. And as I add improvements, I'll make sure that they don't decrease speed. At the beginning of this year, I was working on a similar web browser, where the goal was speed. It started off really simple, but it actually turned out pretty nice at the end. I was even using it as my default browser. I'd like to just release that but unfortunately that was during the short period of time where I was using an Intel Mac, so it only works on 10.6+. And I have no idea where I can find a copy (probably on some flash drive somewhere). I'm sorry about how bad my software is, I should wait until it gets better before releasing it. I was just excited about the Leopard Market and thought people would like to have it. If I were to keep doing the Leopard Market, I know for a fact it would be much better by final release. I'd have a built-in downloader (something that I was working really hard on for beta 2) and it would be much more like the original Leopard Market concept. But, as I said above, I'm done.

 

[Gamer9430]

I'd also add, you've no idea who's behind that forum member name - how would you feel if you learned that user was mentally/physically handicapped or was in a recovery process from some trauma or other and being on the forum was one way to return to some normality?

This is very true, as I have met one user in particular which this is his exact case. This user, who I will not name out of respect for them, has had a rough life. He was born prematurely with CP, his parents divorced, and he fell and essentially broke his back. This user hasn't really fit in with the world around him until he found groups that had similar interests as he did, like computers. He came here and began to frequently talk to several users. I met him while playing Minecraft with him back when I first started collecting and frequenting the forums and when the Minecraft server @128keaton and I were running was alive and active. We decided to Skype often and add each other on Facebook and we really got to know each other. I then started a group chat with Keaton and a few other members for the minecraft server. It then became more for talking and helping each other with our Macs. Over time, more and more members have been invited and the chat has grown into my dysfunctional 2nd family. As it was growing, I invited that member as well and he has since become a valuable asset and friend to all of us. He's extremely bright and knowledgeable in everything Mac related. I feel that thanks to our chat, he now has many friends that appreciate him. Most other people outside of the chat don't know what he's going through, proving your point true. I agree that the forums have been a welcoming place for this member in particular and have helped to make everything seem kinda normal for him. I don't know what the case is for most other people, once again proving your point. Put it this way, compared to MatthewLTL and Rabidz7 (two members who have since been banned for their outlandish and absurd behavior and postings), HFTaylor isn't bad at all. Maybe it's that a few of us need to learn to have patience for those who aren't on the same skill levels. Patience is a virtue possessed by so few, and I know most of the time I'm not one of those people. However, I'd be willing to try and be more patient for the sake of not accidentally alienating forum members. Once again, I apologize for anyone who I may have offended for bringing these issues to HFTaylor (and I guess everyone else)'S attention. As I mentioned, my sole intention was just to bring these issues to the attention of the respective people that it concerned so that they would know how others viewed it and they could try and fix those problems if they so wanted to.

Hell, if anyone has any issues with me, I'd like to hear them so I could try and correct them going forward to better the forum experience of everyone else.

 

[Gamer9430]

@HFTaylor12, if you enjoy making the software, including Leopard Market, I won't be the one to stop you. If you continue developing it, I'm sure we can figure out a solution that satisfies both you and the PPC Archive team. Gavin has given me full control of relations, so this is coming from both of us... if you'd like to continue working on it, please go ahead and do so. If not, than we thank you for trying to work on it and hopefully we can find another project in the future that can incorporate the Archive Team and your desire and skills to make software that would help to make our PPCs live longer