Les Paul 12 string guitar mod project

[Schtumple]

If the grain of the wood is pleasing to you, don't cover it up. IMO.

Good point, I think I'll go for a satin lacquer final coat and sanding sealer as a primer, gloss will almost definitely darken/oversaturate the colour of the wood, and the shine will probably make it look unnatural and disgusting.

 

[lewis82]

I agree with Shirley.

I'm starting to appreciate this nickname... mind if I call you like that, Shirley iJohnHenry?

 

[63dot]

That is a huge undertaking. I love it!

Right now, I am taking on a slightly less ambitious project but still time consuming. It's my own little take on making my very own Custom ESP Viper without having to shell out four or five grand.

I have an ESP/LTD Viper 301 (SG copy) which I have previously painted similar to Eric Clapton's Cream-era SG (see hippy guitar I own right now) and I :

1) took off the artwork on the painted side on the back.

2) After that, I shaved off a lot of the mahogany of this LTD/ESP to make it thinner and lighter in weight like the Gibson SG. The ESP Viper, like the attached pictures of the black and white ones which show the side view and larger mass of this model, show just how thick this guitar is compared to a Gibson of a similar design. The only advantage is that the heavier body makes this guitar balance better while standing up.

3) Today I finished putting a slightly reddish sealer and primer on the back of the newly thinned out body. I may sand and put on another thin coat.

4) When sealer primer is set down in place and pretty consistent, then I will repaint another '60s inspired design on the back of the guitar. As to what it will be exactly, who knows, really?

5) To finish off the overhaul, I may take out one or both of the high output EMG passive humbuckers (EMG HZ-1s) and put in a more moderate pickup like a DiMarzio Eric Johnson model, DiMarzio Air Classic, Seymour Duncan Phat Cat, Fralin P-92, or similar brighter, less powerful pickup. It will be a lighter weight instrument with a lighter sound, too.

 

[Heilage]

So here's the initial sanding finished, still very rough in places, definitely needs some much finer sandpaper on it, very tired now though and enough is enough for tonight. Still not received the neck/headstock, the tuners have arrived though which is good.

I'm loving the wood texture on that body. It would be a shame to cover it up with paint unless you're doing something very unique. I say let it be natural.

 

[Schtumple]

Cool project 63dot!

More sanding today, much finer paper, much smoother now, probably going to be a while before I post again as there's not much more I can do till stuff arrives, that and I've got to deal with trying to get a refund for my TV, the stand completely broke, fell on the floor, smashed the screen, always nice to come home to.

 

[kolax]

Awesome idea. I've got an SG double neck (well, a clone.. can't quite afford the real thing!). Hardest thing I've had to do in my life is change the strings on the 12 sting neck. I've gone through about 3 packets in one attempt once - I'd end up turning the wrong peg and wonder why the tension wasn't increasing, only to have it snap across my wrist!

What are you going to do pickup wise?

 

[Schtumple]

Awesome idea. I've got an SG double neck (well, a clone.. can't quite afford the real thing!). Hardest thing I've had to do in my life is change the strings on the 12 sting neck. I've gone through about 3 packets in one attempt once - I'd end up turning the wrong peg and wonder why the tension wasn't increasing, only to have it snap across my wrist!

What are you going to do pickup wise?

Keeping the pickups already on the guitar and hoping they work as is. Otherwise, probably try and figure how to wire 2 single coils to spread the sound out, lose the ability of the top pickup and cover it over.

 

[63dot]

Keeping the pickups already on the guitar and hoping they work as is. Otherwise, probably try and figure how to wire 2 single coils to spread the sound out, lose the ability of the top pickup and cover it over.

You have two humbuckers, but are they four conductor wiring? If not, you can disable a coil to get a single coil sound in one or both of the pickups to get a more jingle jangle tone but there's no going back on this idea. I did this to an inexpensive 335 copy and the results were phenomenal for what I was shooting for. Since the stock pickup I disabled to one coil became, well, only half the output, I then compensated by putting in an old used Gibson PUP humbucker from the 1960s (with very low output) in the other chamber and this setup worked well.

But if you do have four conductor wiring, then you are really in business. You can get a scooped out mid tone by going parallel with a humbucker or two, via push pull or mini switch, and of course you can also coil tap via push pull or mini switch. With a setup like this you can go back and forth from stock dual humbucker tone to a wide variety of tones.

Seymour Duncan offers a product called "The Liberator" which can make you swap out pickups as easily as changing strings and also make you wire existing pickups in different manners. If you get tired of a sound, either change the wiring or even swap out pickups.

www.seymourduncan.com/liberator

For a really authentic, somewhat Rickenbacker electric 12 string sound, TV Jones makes some drop in humbucker spaced pickups with great vintage type tones.

www.tvjones.com

Finally, while pickups make a lot of difference, especially in a solidbody electric guitar, you can get an inexpensive modeling amp, like a new Fender or Vox, and dial in the perfect sound. Of course, if money is no object, get some high end software. The Fender amp, however, is about $99 bucks online.

 

[63dot]

Also, another thing you can do to get a spread out single coil sound besides wiring, is to get a couple of single coils (or single coil sounding humbuckers) that fit in a humbucker rout. This may be what I do.

The chrome pickup with the single row of six screws is a Seymour Duncan Phat Cat which are P-90 style single coils in a humbucker housing. These are like the single coil P-90s in Lennon and Harrison's Epiphone Casinos. This pickup is a single coil but with midrange and bass.

The chrome pickup with an offset double row with screws is the Fralin P-92 which is a midrange powerful Fender Deluxe Telecaster type pickup in a humbucker housing. The actual Fender has a different dimension by a little.

The chrome pickup with an offset double row with rod magnets is a slightly more thin sounding pickup by Seymour Duncan's Custom shop which costs 30%-50% percent more but you can specify exactly how strong or thin or midrange heavy the pickup can be.

And finally, the black plastic pickup which looks like a powerful heavy metal Metallica humbucker is actually an EMG single coil strat pickup simply put into a humbucker housing. This pickup is the EMG-HA active humbucker. I have the EMG-HZs, which are powerful and passive. The HA, however, is active and requires a 9 v. battery. The other three passive pickups have a lot of headroom and may or may not be "noisy" with 60 cycle hum and have a vintage tone. The EMG HA is much more quiet as far as hum and has the most even individual note capability.

These pickups, besides the Fralin, are easily available and can be seen in large guitar stores. I tend to like the boutique pickups and the most pricey and most sexy I have heard about are handwound ones from the UK at www.at-the-creamery.co.uk

If you want anything, no matter how particular, these guys can do it if it can be done.

 

[Schtumple]

I'm not even going to pretend to know what ANY of that meant, that was all way over my head I'm afraid, I'll see how it sounds with the humbucker then go from there, afraid you might have to simplify your wording on what I can do in order to get a better/more full sound.

 

[63dot]

I'm not even going to pretend to know what ANY of that meant, that was all way over my head I'm afraid, I'll see how it sounds with the humbucker then go from there, afraid you might have to simplify your wording on what I can do in order to get a better/more full sound.

Sorry about that.

Anyway, you will probably get a medium output, full sound with what you have.

To thin out the sound, you can put in a coil tap switch or push pull volume pot (four conductor wiring).

To add more output, you can put in a hotter pickup (such as the TV Jones pickups).

Anyway, here's what I just finished an hour ago on thinner body for SG copy which makes guitar about one pound less in weight. Isn't this all fun?

You can see detail in pix with magnifying glass icon and it looks like I need to sand it off some more before second coat. What type of sand paper should I use? There is a little roughness coming through the wood past the finish (water based opaque polyurethane diamond coat over reddish brown wood stain).

update: Newer picture (1/5/2011) is after putting a little more red to tint and a couple of coats of polyurethane. Much of the air bubbles from wood grain poking through is covered up due to in between sanding but it will take a coat a day, with more sanding in between, for a few more days to get a uniform sheen to cover up boo-boos and two places where I once had misplaced strap buttons.

Oddly, after that, I will rough it up a bit for the artwork to go on it. I think it's going to be a detailed art thing with sharpies and then several matte clear coats over that similar to the acoustic guitar picture with artwork drawn over natural wood finish. The back of the neck and front of the guitar will retain the purple acrylic artwork that was painted on it six years ago (post #28). It's so hard to envision just what this whole thing will look like. If I didn't have a set-in neck, I too would consider making this six string electric into a 12 string electric like yours.

 

[Heilage]

Why would you want a single coil sound? One of the beauties of Les Pauls are the humbuckers.

 

[pachyderm]

wow. the whole thing seems ill advised... good luck with it...

was it an actual Gibson Les Paul or some knock off?

 

[Schtumple]

wow. the whole thing seems ill advised... good luck with it...

was it an actual Gibson Les Paul or some knock off?

Why is it ill advised...? I've taken a guitar I don't use because it's broken and changed/fixed it to a guitar I've wanted for some time now...

All the parts will fit, some requiring a tiny bit of work, most requiring none at all...

Definitely not a Gibson, guess you didn't bother reading the first post where I said it cost me £89... I don't believe in any of that "I spent £3000 on my guitar so that makes me a great guitarist" crap, a guitar is a guitar is a guitar, nothing more.

Also, because I'm really sick of this in any project I've posted on here- nobody forced you to read this thread or post in it, so if you don't agree with the project just don't post, it's as simple as that.

----------

Anyway, here's what I just finished an hour ago on thinner body for SG copy which makes guitar about one pound less in weight. Isn't this all fun?

You can see detail in pix with magnifying glass icon and it looks like I need to sand it off some more before second coat. What type of sand paper should I use? There is a little roughness coming through the wood past the finish (water based opaque polyurethane diamond coat over reddish brown wood stain).

That's awesome man, looking good, I like the super rounded edges, that something you added in whilst thinning?

Definitely keep sanding, I used 60 grit, then 80 then 120 and mines pretty damn smooth now, takes a long time though, specially with the 120, and it gets really frustrating if you notice a tiny dip, gotta break out the 80, then 120 all over again :roll eyes: Tedious work.

 

[63dot]

That's awesome man, looking good, I like the super rounded edges, that something you added in whilst thinning?

Definitely keep sanding, I used 60 grit, then 80 then 120 and mines pretty damn smooth now, takes a long time though, specially with the 120, and it gets really frustrating if you notice a tiny dip, gotta break out the 80, then 120 all over again :roll eyes: Tedious work.

Thanks!

Just when I think I am able to paint design on back (like front), then I see a flaw I have to pick up. I used very heavy grit to thin down guitar and round edges to make it more ergonomic, medium heavy to make it smoother to approximate shape ready to seal, and medium fine to get it as good as I could by hand without professional sanders.

I only used finer stuff between coats. The hardest part is to hide roughness from mahogany grain. It's altogether much more tedious than alder or maple which are much easier to seal up and put a final coat on. I have to leave some roughness in order to paint design on the back and then put a few final coats of matte art sealer on it to protect art work.

When I get a few more coats on it and sanding between coats (unfortunately without buffer), I will get a design on there and post the finished project. Much later on will I get a pickup or pickups (to work out a much more treble like snappy tone) and then post the finished project. If I had a sprayer and buffer I could make much quicker work of this all but the doing the thing by hand (with brushes, cheese cloth, and tons of hand sanding) makes me appreciate the guitar builders of old before electricity much more.

PS - I love the figure of the grain on top of your 12 string Les Paul!

 

[Schtumple]

Thanks!

Just when I think I am able to paint design on back (like front), then I see a flaw I have to pick up. I used very heavy grit to thin down guitar and round edges to make it more ergonomic, medium heavy to make it smoother to approximate shape ready to seal, and medium fine to get it as good as I could by hand without professional sanders.

Yeah I guess for painting it's going to show up any of the dips so much more, it'll be worth it though for the final product, did you get any sanding sealer?

When I get a few more coats on it and sanding between coats (unfortunately without buffer), I will get a design on there and post the finished project. Much later on will I get a pickup or pickups (to work out a much more treble like snappy tone) and then post the finished project. If I had a sprayer and buffer I could make much quicker work of this all but the doing the thing by hand (with brushes, cheese cloth, and tons of hand sanding) makes me appreciate the guitar builders of old before electricity much more.

PS - I love the figure of the grain on top of your 12 string Les Paul!

Definitely, got any ideas for what artwork you're going to put on there?

Oh yeah, I'd love to do it all by hand but simply don't have enough time tbh, it's caused a few problems, the bridge area of the top isn't as rounded as it once was, harsh grit really tore through the gentle bump, but I'm not that fussed, to be quite honest, this guitar isn't about looking nice, as long as it's not the original sunburst I'm happy

 

[63dot]

Yeah I guess for painting it's going to show up any of the dips so much more, it'll be worth it though for the final product, did you get any sanding sealer?



Definitely, got any ideas for what artwork you're going to put on there?

Oh yeah, I'd love to do it all by hand but simply don't have enough time tbh, it's caused a few problems, the bridge area of the top isn't as rounded as it once was, harsh grit really tore through the gentle bump, but I'm not that fussed, to be quite honest, this guitar isn't about looking nice, as long as it's not the original sunburst I'm happy

I used a combination sealer/stain in a redwood color to make the white mahogany get a Honduras red mahogany undertone.

As for artwork, I don't know quite yet but in same vein as front of guitar.

I thought that original sunburst looked nice on your Les Paul but whatever you do you will transform the guitar and that's the fun part of restoring and modifying gear. My guitar was an original all cherry, high-gloss finish with black hardware but the eventual product will be artwork everywhere on the guitar and a satin finish with some chrome parts introduced into the mix.

 

[pachyderm]

Why is it ill advised...? I've taken a guitar I don't use because it's broken and changed/fixed it to a guitar I've wanted for some time now...

All the parts will fit, some requiring a tiny bit of work, most requiring none at all...

Definitely not a Gibson, guess you didn't bother reading the first post where I said it cost me £89... I don't believe in any of that "I spent £3000 on my guitar so that makes me a great guitarist" crap, a guitar is a guitar is a guitar, nothing more.

Also, because I'm really sick of this in any project I've posted on here- nobody forced you to read this thread or post in it, so if you don't agree with the project just don't post, it's as simple as that.

lol and wow! easy champ.

i did read the original post. all you said was you bought a les paul. u didn't say it was a les paul copy. if it's in that bad of shape and depending on where you found it, £89 isn't that unreasonable for a badly damaged gibson, or epiphone, les paul...

i wished you luck dude. looks like you're nailing it.

seriously tho, i'll read whatever post i want and reply to whatever post i want. it is an open forum and you should be ready for any positive or negative response.

 

[Schtumple]

seriously tho, i'll read whatever post i want and reply to whatever post i want. it is an open forum and you should be ready for any positive or negative response.

Your post had no point to it though, you didn't agree with the project, but you couldn't actually give a reason... If you had some kind of constructive criticism about what I was doing wrong then that's fine.

FYI, I'd just finished 7am-9pm shift at work and was majorly sleep deprived, so if I seemed overly angry, blame that, I'm not THAT pissed off about it, it just really bugs me is all, give a reason, don't just be negative for the sake of being negative, the iPhone forums are for that.

You can see from the photo it's by no means in that bad condition, and tbh, the photo is so high quality you could read the headstock where it says "Nevada".

And that's that as far as I'm concerned. Feel free to carry on following the project, but please don't be negative about it if you don't actually have a genuine reason to be negative, it's not clever and you just come across as a bit of a dick.

----------------------

In lighter news, the sanding sealer and lacquer should be arriving on the 4th, neck/headstock same time, only thing to wait on is the bridge which won't get shipped until the 6th, shame.

 

[pachyderm]

lol. whatever.
my point was, if it was a gibson/epiphone, i'd be hesitant to mess with the finish. good luck tho.
and as a favor to you i will ignore all of your future posts.

 

[UlsterApple]

Good point, I think I'll go for a satin lacquer final coat and sanding sealer as a primer, gloss will almost definitely darken/oversaturate the colour of the wood, and the shine will probably make it look unnatural and disgusting.

Have a look at this guy, he never varnishes any of the guitars or other instruments he makes. I bought bouzouki No11 back in May 2011 and the finish is nice without being overly shiny or cheap looking. BTW he doesn't reply to any questions through this blog so I'm still trying to get him by other means...

http://martinedwardsluthier.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

 

[Schtumple]

Have a look at this guy, he never varnishes any of the guitars or other instruments he makes. I bought bouzouki No11 back in May 2011 and the finish is nice without being overly shiny or cheap looking. BTW he doesn't reply to any questions through this blog so I'm still trying to get him by other means...

http://martinedwardsluthier.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

That guy is far more skilled than I am I would leave it with just an incredibly fine sanding but it's bound to get really badly dented or scratched, I take good care of my instruments, but accidents happen, and it would be a major shame to wreck the finish by it just slightly tapping something.

 

[Heilage]

Inspired by you, I'm thinking of building a 12-string Statocaster actually. What do you think?

 

[Schtumple]

Inspired by you, I'm thinking of building a 12-string Statocaster actually. What do you think?

Go for it! The only issue is making sure all the dimensions match, the pickups may give a nicer sound than my hum buckers tbh, be worth the experimentation, 12 strings are such a lush sound it surprises me how underused they are by musicians.

 

[Heilage]

On a Strat I can just bolt on a new neck and new bridge, and we're off. I'll also be putting on some Dragonfire custom electronics on it, just to make it kickass.

It ought to be an interesting experiment, that's for sure.