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LG Named as Supplier of iPhone 8's 3D Facial Recognition System for Front-Facing Camera

macduke said:
Let me make sure I get this straight: To unlock our new iPhone, we just need our face, but to purchase things, we have to put our finger on the back? I know Apple usually waits to do things the right way when it comes to new tech, such as waiting until Touch ID was really secure before implementing a finger print scanner.
Click to expand...

Since it can be easily spoofed by anyone who really wants to, Touch Id is _NOT_ what anyone in the intel business would call "really secure". What it is, is fast, convenient, and "secure enough" in the majority of consumer situations.

But I can't help feeling insecure about this input method since so many companies have failed at it—not just in a small way, but massively. Apple will need to go to great lengths to convince me that this is secure as my whole life is in my iPhone.
Click to expand...

We used to say that about wallets and little black books :)

If you were really concerned about keeping something personally embarrassing and/or worthy of blackmail on your phone, you'd want Apple to implement at least a dual authentication method, like requiring BOTH a fingerprint and a long password. Personally I'd also want an iris scan. Better yet, just don't do it.

In any case, if you don't think facial is good enough, THEN DON'T USE IT. Problem solved.

LuckyBubba said:
Having facial and IRIS recognition would be helpful for the FBI.
Click to expand...

How so? The info doesn't leave the phone.

Now, if you meant that it makes it easier for the police to unlock your phone without asking, then yeah.
 
Kahio said:
Do you guys agree that;

If that 3D sensing camera is WELL BUILT; we don't care/need the touch ID anymore? It could be place outside the iPhone, let's say in other antique smartphones.

Touch ID could be "out"; not below screen, not on the back; just bye; IF the system is PERFECT and as secure as Touch ID.


Could it?
Click to expand...
I most certainly DO NOT agree.
  • I often unlock the phone when it's far away from my face and is not aimed directly at it.
  • I often have to unlock it in poor lighting/darkness
  • whenever I use Apple pay (that's several times a day every day) I need Touch ID and the phone is far away from my face.
Even if the 3d sensing system works perfectly I still want Touch ID. No Touch ID on the front=no sale for me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Michael Scrip, recoil80 and WRChris
MacRumors said:



LG Innotek will supply Apple with 3D facial recognition modules for the iPhone 8, according to The Korea Economic Daily (via The Investor).

iphone-8-front-camera-concept-800x421.jpg

iPhone 8 concept with two cameras and two sensors by Benjamin Geskin​

The report vaguely says LG's "new facility investment" worth roughly $238.5 million will be dedicated to Apple's orders, and adds that LG will "build a new plant" for production of the facial recognition modules, which are expected to be part of the iPhone 8's front-facing FaceTime camera system.

It's not entirely clear if the front-facing camera will also have dual lenses, or retain a single lens in line with previous iPhone models.

Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo of KGI Securities previously said the iPhone 8 will have a "revolutionary" front-facing camera system with 3D sensing capabilities, fueled by algorithms from PrimeSense, an Israeli company that Apple acquired in 2013. PrimeSense was known for developing Microsoft's first Kinect sensor for Xbox.

Kuo said the iPhone 8's front camera system will include two infrared modules that are able to determine the location and depth of objects placed in front of it, with potential applications including facial recognition, iris scanning, and some combination of augmented reality/virtual reality/mixed reality.

Article Link: LG Named as Supplier of iPhone 8's 3D Facial Recognition System for Front-Facing Camera
Click to expand...
Better idea.....Touch ID on the front and 1 camera on the front. No need for facial recognition, just another Samsung gimmick.
 
V.K. said:
I most certainly DO NOT agree.
  • I often unlock the phone when it's far away from my face and is not aimed directly at it.
  • I often have to unlock it in poor lighting/darkness
  • whenever I use Apple pay (that's several times a day every day) I need Touch ID and the phone is far away from my face.
Even if the 3d sensing system works perfectly I still want Touch ID. No Touch ID on the front=no sale for me.
Click to expand...

1. If it has headtracking and is a wideangled dual sensors it won' t be a problem.
2. It will work in the dark with ir and laser(rumored)
3. For apple pay, you can use touchid on the back of the iphone.
 
ValO said:
1. If it has headtracking and is a wideangled dual sensors it won' t be a problem.
2. It will work in the dark with ir and laser(rumored)
3. For apple pay, you can use touchid on the back of the iphone.
Click to expand...
It would be a no sale for me if they make me flip my phone over to use Touch ID. If they can't embed it in the screen I will just stick with my rock solid 6 plus. I do have an Apple Watch but I've never used it for Apple Pay and don't plan on starting just because they make the phone harder to navigate.
 
ValO said:
1. If it has headtracking and is a wideangled dual sensors it won' t be a problem.
2. It will work in the dark with ir and laser(rumored)
3. For apple pay, you can use touchid on the back of the iphone.
Click to expand...
1. it would have to be a hell of a lot better than what I've seen on on existing phones (galaxy s8) in order for me to buy this.
2. good if true
3. thx but no thx if it's anything like the s8 one. I've heard nothing good about back placed fingerprint sensors.
 
kdarling said:
Since it can be easily spoofed by anyone who really wants to, Touch Id is _NOT_ what anyone in the intel business would call "really secure". What it is, is fast, convenient, and "secure enough" in the majority of consumer situations.



We used to say that about wallets and little black books :)

If you were really concerned about keeping something personally embarrassing and/or worthy of blackmail on your phone, you'd want Apple to implement at least a dual authentication method, like requiring BOTH a fingerprint and a long password. Personally I'd also want an iris scan. Better yet, just don't do it.

In any case, if you don't think facial is good enough, THEN DON'T USE IT. Problem solved.



How so? The info doesn't leave the phone.

Now, if you meant that it makes it easier for the police to unlock your phone without asking, then yeah.
Click to expand...
The FBI or any 3 letter acronym government agency will not tell you whether or not they can get that information OTA or not. There would have to be another whistle blower and they would deny, deny, deny until they legally had to tell the public. And then throw the Whistle blower in a dark cage for an unspecified amount of time

For all we know they may be currently compiling data based on our fingerprint images
 
WRChris said:
It would be a no sale for me if they make me flip my phone over to use Touch ID. If they can't embed it in the screen I will just stick with my rock solid 6 plus. I do have an Apple Watch but I've never used it for Apple Pay and don't plan on starting just because they make the phone harder to navigate.
Click to expand...

If touchid is on the back, how would it be harder to navigate for apple pay?

I think the biggest problem for apple users and supporters (like me) that they want apple to do something that hasn' t been done by their competitors to really show their engineering advantage, (like in their socs) and live up to the hype.
Having touchid on the back, will make the whole world wondering and stating again that apple is copying the competition again and has lost his innovative edge(again).
The s8 has his fingerprint reader on the back, like many androids(although placement with the s8 is really bad), we want to see something different, because we want apple to be different and show their tech edge.
But if you look it at with sense and without that emotion, the solution of 3d touch /forcetouch homebutton combined with facial recog for unlocking(if it is fast en has wide angled and dark envirement possibilities) and touchid for apple pay is actually quite a good solution.
 
ValO said:
If touchid is on the back, how would it be harder to navigate for apple pay?

I think the biggest problem for apple users and supporters (like me) that they want apple to do something that hasn' t been done by their competitors to really show their engineering advantage, (like in their socs) and live up to the hype.
Having touchid on the back, will make the whole world wondering and stating again that apple is copying the competition again and has lost his innovative edge(again).
The s8 has his fingerprint reader on the back, like many androids(although placement with the s8 is really bad), we want to see something different, because we want apple to be different and show their tech edge.
But if you look it at with sense and without that emotion, the solution of 3d touch /forcetouch homebutton combined with facial recog for unlocking(if it is fast en has wide angled and dark envirement possibilities) and touchid for apple pay is actually quite a good solution.
Click to expand...
It's another subconscious step that has to be programmed in our heads. Pick up phone, align finger with Touch ID on the back side you aren't looking at. Touch ID also helps navigate the phone itself. In the middle of the night if I reach and grab my phone, I know which direction is up or down just by the single button. Idc if Apple goes down that road or not, I just won't buy into it. How will a case seal up around that Touch ID sensor on the back? Or will it be another dust collecting hole on the back of the case?
 
WRChris said:
The FBI or any 3 letter acronym government agency will not tell you whether or not they can get that information OTA or not.
[...]
For all we know they may be currently compiling data based on our fingerprint images
Click to expand...

How would they get access to a Touch Id fingerprint image? The data is encrypted between the sensor and the CPU, which then hands it off to the Secure Enclave to parse and store.

For that matter, who cares about registered fingerprints unless they're a criminal? Any of us who've served in the military have been fingerprinted, for instance, as have people signing up for programs like TSA Pre. Or tons of sensitive jobs.

If you're worried about unwarranted surveillance, facial recognition doesn't even need to get close to us and it's already in use in airports etc to watch for people on the no-fly and other lists.
 
kdarling said:
How would they get access to a Touch Id fingerprint image? The data is encrypted between the sensor and the CPU, which then hands it off to the Secure Enclave to parse and store.

For that matter, who cares about registered fingerprints unless they're a criminal? Any of us who've served in the military have been fingerprinted, for instance, as have people signing up for programs like TSA Pre. Or tons of sensitive jobs.

If you're worried about unwarranted surveillance, facial recognition doesn't even need to get close to us and it's already in use in airports etc to watch for people on the no-fly and other lists.
Click to expand...
Criminals are not the only people who wouldnt want to be in a database and it's absurd to say that. I just want to preserve the right to privacy, as should you if you served. Thank you for that if you did. I did not serve but I'm still a tax paying citizen.

I didn't say "they" "could" but our phones are connected to the internet pretty much at all times so it's possible, I would think. If there were tools to gather the data couldn't it be decrypted?

Of course you need printed for certain jobs but you do so knowing that you will be in that companies/governments database. That's a choice.

I'm against any form of pre-crime database by our government. I really don't want to get into that right now, though.
 
Kahio said:
Do you guys agree that;

If that 3D sensing camera is WELL BUILT; we don't care/need the touch ID anymore? It could be place outside the iPhone, let's say in other antique smartphones.

Touch ID could be "out"; not below screen, not on the back; just bye; IF the system is PERFECT and as secure as Touch ID.


Could it?
Click to expand...

I can't see how Apple Pay would work with Face recognition. By this I mean, how would you be able to position your iPhone to be able to scan your face and at the same time have the iPhone near enough to the payment terminal for the NFC chip to detect.
 
kdarling said:
We used to say that about wallets and little black books :)

If you were really concerned about keeping something personally embarrassing and/or worthy of blackmail on your phone, you'd want Apple to implement at least a dual authentication method, like requiring BOTH a fingerprint and a long password. Personally I'd also want an iris scan. Better yet, just don't do it.

In any case, if you don't think facial is good enough, THEN DON'T USE IT. Problem solved.
Click to expand...
Well, the thing with Touch ID is that it requires a whole lot of work to crack it. You have to get someone's fingerprint, then make those tricky conductive molds that can fool the sensor. Usually by the time all of that stuff is together, the iPhone has gone into passcode lock mode. The thing about current implementations at other companies for Face ID (or whatever they'll call it) is that it can be easily cracked with a printout of someone's face. That's a pretty big difference. But the old fingerprint tech was also more easily hacked, and Apple improve massively on that. I'm hoping that if they make something inconvenient and annoying like rear Touch ID that their front-facing system is really secure. But then again, this whole thing seems weird to me. Why would Apple work so hard on making sure Touch ID is what is used to unlock all of these iPhones made since 2013 and then come out with a solution that is weaker? It's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out.
 
So Apple is incorporating a more advanced, miniaturized version of Kinect into the new iPhone? I would imagine the new A11 SoC would be powerful enough to deliver on something in AR using that technology plus whatever has been in development since. It will be most interesting, and telling, to see what Apple does with it on the software side of things. That's where the "magic" really happens. When they control both the hardware and software plus take plenty of time to develop all of it together, Apple usually delivers. One thing is for sure, the accompanying software will be incredibly important as to whether or not this AR venture ends up being a success.

I'm looking at you, Craig Federighi o_O
 
macduke said:
Well, the thing with Touch ID is that it requires a whole lot of work to crack it. You have to get someone's fingerprint, then make those tricky conductive molds that can fool the sensor. Usually by the time all of that stuff is together, the iPhone has gone into passcode lock mode.
Click to expand...

It's not that tricky to do, not really that much work. And if someone targeted you, they could take their time making a fake print to use when the opportunity arose.

The thing about current implementations at other companies for Face ID (or whatever they'll call it) is that it can be easily cracked with a printout of someone's face. That's a pretty big difference.
Click to expand...

I agree. That's why a 3D version with more "liveness" test would be helpful. I still say iris scan is the best though.

But the old fingerprint tech was also more easily hacked, and Apple improve massively on that.
Click to expand...

Again, no they did not. Not one bit. That German computer club had published how to fake an RF type sensor back in 2000 or so. That's one of the reasons everyone stopped using fingerprint sensors.

That's why, when Apple used the exact same type of sensor, it took the same club about two days to hack it using the exact same method they had used a dozen years earlier.

The sensor that Apple bought is not more secure. It's faster and more convenient.

I'm hoping that if they make something inconvenient and annoying like rear Touch ID that their front-facing system is really secure. But then again, this whole thing seems weird to me. Why would Apple work so hard on making sure Touch ID is what is used to unlock all of these iPhones made since 2013 and then come out with a solution that is weaker? It's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out.
Click to expand...

I agree again. Something is goofy.
 
V.K. said:
I most certainly DO NOT agree.
  • I often unlock the phone when it's far away from my face and is not aimed directly at it.
  • I often have to unlock it in poor lighting/darkness
  • whenever I use Apple pay (that's several times a day every day) I need Touch ID and the phone is far away from my face.
Even if the 3d sensing system works perfectly I still want Touch ID. No Touch ID on the front=no sale for me.
Click to expand...

It does not need light; only depth.
 
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