What happens if your hdd dies? A recovery partition on the drive will be useless.
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Lion Clean Install Requires Snow Leopard Disk?
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What happens if your hdd dies? A recovery partition on the drive will be useless.
it has been pointed out several times that you actually can create a bootable dvd, once you've downloaded lion (at least in the developer previews you can).
thing is, with all that proprietary stuff going on lately at apple, they made it almost impossible for an average joe user to replace a hdd all by himself (meaning he has to take his machine to an apple store) and even if he could pull it off, he'd still have to buy an apple certified one, which of course will drive up the price due to apple taxes
That's not Unix nor part of the SUS. It's not a Unix problem, it's an OS X problem.
None of those are Unix either. They're very much OS X problems.
In any way? Yeah, none of those problems I just listed have ANYTHING to do with Unix underpinnings.
Nope, they don't. Do you know what Unix is and what the SUS is ? If you said something like the open() syscall not returning EEXIST when passed O_CREAT and O_EXCL, then yes, that would be a Unix problem.
Sounds like you haven't spent quite enough time to be qualified to discuss it though. You don't seem to quite grasp what is and isn't a Unix implementation problem.
Oh, I relate to normal users. I understand them perfectly. I've dealt with them since the 90s. A little searching around the Internet could do them some good but they prefer to lay cash down to get their stuff repaired for them.
But why are you comparing the Macrumors crowd to normal users ? Normal users don't reinstall their OS. People who do a notch above normal users. These guys pretend they have "technical" know-how about this stuff, yet their solution to about every obscure error message popping up in the syslog is to do a clean install. Frankly that's just absurd. These are the guys I was pointing out. The "OS reinstallation fixes problems!" crowd that want to do "Clean installs of Lion!". Not. Your. Average. User.
If you're reinstalling Lion, you had the package at any point, or how would you have installed it in the first place ? You don't read much of the posts now do you ? The sub-thread was about reinstalling lion on a failed drive.
So again, people just need to properly backup the installer or even use the recipe posted here again and again to create a DVD of their own. Is it intuitive ? No.
Your native language isn't English right ? Because you have a serious lack as far as reading comprehension goes. We always have to spell everything out for you, and you always manage to misunderstand sub-threads and go on long, boring rants that have nothing to do with the topic and just drags the thread all over the place.
I think I'll solve the problem right away, at least for myself. I'll let you join the *LTD* club.
So I just bought a Dell and it came with ZERO physical media. Tells you to create a backup disc of your own. Why would it be so hard to believe the forward thinking Apple won't do the same????
Ironically, the reasoning for making you create your own is because they "know you don't want to have to save all those discs and have to dig through them." What a cop out. Pretty sure I will still have to save the disc and find it when my HD crashes.
Ironically, the reasoning for making you create your own is because they "know you don't want to have to save all those discs and have to dig through them." What a cop out. Pretty sure I will still have to save the disc and find it when my HD crashes.
@KnightWRX
i don't have the knowledge you have and i can speak only out of my personal experience. after upgrading from leopard to snow leopard there was an noticeable hit in performance so i decided a few days later to do a clean install and voila, things got really better! all of a sudden the os was faster and more responsive.
i've witnessed the same thing after upgrading ubuntu.
in my opinion you can't compare os x or ubuntu to rolling distros that follow the KISS concept (like arch or gentoo). in order to become more user friendly mac os x (or ubuntu) tends to become more "complex" underneath, making an upgrade more difficult (not for the user) and more vulnerable to problems. i'm sure you haven't forgot what happened to some people who upgraded from leopard to snow leopard and lost all their data. that's why i prefer to do clean installs.
i don't have the knowledge you have and i can speak only out of my personal experience. after upgrading from leopard to snow leopard there was an noticeable hit in performance so i decided a few days later to do a clean install and voila, things got really better! all of a sudden the os was faster and more responsive.
i've witnessed the same thing after upgrading ubuntu.
in my opinion you can't compare os x or ubuntu to rolling distros that follow the KISS concept (like arch or gentoo). in order to become more user friendly mac os x (or ubuntu) tends to become more "complex" underneath, making an upgrade more difficult (not for the user) and more vulnerable to problems. i'm sure you haven't forgot what happened to some people who upgraded from leopard to snow leopard and lost all their data. that's why i prefer to do clean installs.
LOL. Maybe you should start by defining WTF you mean by OSX. Because OSX is a general abstract term for the entire operating system. Is "LS" an OSX command too? You're getting into programming calls now and playing games with semantics left and right. WTF does that have to do with a Mac consumer trying to deal with an OS problem? The "Mac" is supposed to be 100% GUI to the consumer. If I have to go to the Unix shell to fix a problem, particularly with programs that typically only come with a Unix-type OS under normal circumstances, I don't call that an OSX specific problem. It's an app problem, but an app associated nearly exclusively with Unix-type operating systems. Beyond the GUI panes in preferences, all those programs I mentioned are standard Unix programs and contain command interfaces at their heart. They are certainly not Cocoa problems or any sort of GUI problem. Using the CLI in OSX requires some knowledge of the Unix shell structure usage.
In other words, you apparently want to label those sorts of problems an Apple when to me if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and craps on my car like a duck, I call it a flipping duck. If the solution to a given problem is identical in OSX as to say Linux and involves the CLI, I'd call it a Unix-type problem, not an "OSX" one since there's nothing specific to the Mac or OSX about the core Samba services or even the file permissions, for that matter. They are common to Unix operating systems and their solutions are typically common as well. You can find the answer on any Unix or Linux type message forum since they all use many of the same basic applications and services underneath.
I'm not a Unix admin. I never claimed to be. But if you think you're having a hard time relating what you're saying to someone that's played with desktop Linux a lot over the past decade, imagine a typical Mac user trying to grasp WTF you're talking about because this all STILL comes back to you telling Mac users to fix their problems (whatever they may be; it's completely abstract at this point) instead of going to a backup or a reinstall. Do you even know what a 'typical' Mac user's knowledge level of computers is? I can't say that I do, but I'd wager it's less than a typical Windows user based on the Mac's reputation for being friendly to non-computer types.
Nothing you've said in this thread or any recent thread I've seen you in demonstrates that one iota. You talk down to everyone and have an arrogant attitude that ranks up there in the top 10 on the entire forums.
You understand everything perfectly. You are god, right? I've got some existential type questions for you later....
And what is and who is a "normal" user? You're throwing extremely abstract terms around left and right in this thread without defining them. I've never "reinstalled" OSX. I have restored from backup that one time Apple's own software update screwed the pooch, though. If I hadn't had a backup, I may very well have reinstalled barring locating another solution within a reasonable length of time. Like I said before, choosing a solution should factor the time it takes YOU personally to fix the problem. If that fix takes longer than a reboot from backup or even a reinstall, why would one want to take the longer amount of time? What you can do in 10 minutes and what an typical Mac user can do probably aren't the same thing.
You claim to understand typical users perfectly, but I see no evidence of it based on your one-shoe-fits-all matter-of-fact replies and that goes for every thread and every topic. Your answer is always right and everyone else that disagrees is a moron.
While I've never re-installed OSX to fix a problem (other than buying a new computer and 're-installing' the same software I have on an existing one), it is incredibly easy to install most OSX Apps by simply copying them straight over to the Applications folder (barring the few that have installers) so I can see why someone with no other knowledge might not mind 'fixing' their install by starting over. To them, it's simpler than having to take the time to learn more about the problem or the OS. I certainly cannot speak for others on this matter. It's certainly simpler than reinstalling all one's software with Windows.
You, however, have some pre-defined definition of "normal" and "average user". Short of a poll, I couldn't say what is normal or average for the Mac. I can only gauge a certain amount based on typical replies on these forums and yet these forums represent people that are interested in Mac news. What about those using the Mac just to run a specific App like say perhaps Logic Pro? Users that just use the Mac to do the Internet and e-mail? They're not really represented on here either. Thus this notion of a typical or average Mac user is pretty elusive short of an actual study (or at least a reasonable scale poll) to conclude what level of knowledge they actually have. I certainly wouldn't prescribe to a one-shoe fits all outlook when addressing people on these forums. One shoe does not fit all. A primary difference between you and I is that I recognize that and you clearly do not.
That's odd. The thread title is "Lion Clean Install Requires Snow Leopard Disk?" not "REinstalling Lion. How do I do it?" Are you sure you're in the right thread?
A clean install does not imply one already has Lion at all. In fact, no one has the final release of Lion yet. The original article that started this post talks about how to upgrade to Lion for a clean install. NOWHERE does it say how do a clean install AFTER you downloaded Lion already.
How odd, I was just about the say the same thing to you because you don't even know WTF the thread is about.
RE: re-download lion
not only slow connection issues for some people (we don't all live in the big city with cable of fiber internet), but my ISP's download cap is 8GB/month (my only high speed option is a wireless provider). Lion download is 4GB if I am not mistaken. Even on a high speed, unlimited connection, that download will take a while.
Why don't charge people 10-15 $ and mail them a physical copy if they want. I'd pay it. Beats finding a way to download it elsewhere.
Tom
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Mid 1010 Macbook Pro 15", 4GB, 320GB HDD
not only slow connection issues for some people (we don't all live in the big city with cable of fiber internet), but my ISP's download cap is 8GB/month (my only high speed option is a wireless provider). Lion download is 4GB if I am not mistaken. Even on a high speed, unlimited connection, that download will take a while.
Why don't charge people 10-15 $ and mail them a physical copy if they want. I'd pay it. Beats finding a way to download it elsewhere.
Tom
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Mid 1010 Macbook Pro 15", 4GB, 320GB HDD
Yes. They should take a step forward. Lion should be distributed on 5.25" floppies.
Going by the developer beta size of around 3.35GB, roughly 2800 floppies would be required. Hope you brew a pot of coffee before starting that install!
Distributing on both DVD and Download would be a good thing. Those who value convenience would go for the download and those who can't use the download route or do not find the MAS convenient could go for the DVD route.
It's not like downloads is a huge step forward, in the world of software distribution, Apple is barely catching up to the crowd with this "step".
Options, what a concept!
See, that makes sense to me; Apple could even charge a premium (say an additional $5/10) for buying a DVD, if that's what people (like me) would prefer.
I can verify that you can boot from the DVD. Just burn the disk image to a DVD using Disk Utility and restart the computer and hold down the option key to boot from the DVD. When the computer boots from the DVD you have all of the same options such as Disk Utility, etc. I formatted my hard drive and installed Lion from scratch.
Would it be possible to verify that the same can be done from a USB flash drive?
I was hoping that I never had to use the Superdrive or kept DVDs around anymore...
I have an optibay anyway...
Oh, it doesn't look good
What progress is being made here ? Apple is joining the ranks of the 90s, when software downloads and OS installs from the net were new and exciting.
The MAS and installing Lion from a download is a big yawn fest of pure "catching-up".