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SeaFox

macrumors 68030
Jul 22, 2003
2,619
954
Somewhere Else
thatwendigo said:
My dad works in classified environments and the only truly secure system is one where your end-users can be trusted. Hardware lockouts won't work, software workarounds won't work. You can have all the firewalls in the world, but someone that can walk in and get on your network could do untold damage just by being there.

The solution isn't spying, it's having trustworthy employees.

Insightful!

And why aren't employees as trustworthy as they use to be?

Perhaps because they are not appreciated and enjoy less job security now that they did 30 years ago? Perhaps because they are overworked and underpaid? Perhaps because they watch management who perform poorly resign with a fat severance package while they just get shown the door for doing the same?

The suit set is trying to find a technology solution to an HR problem, and ignoring all the ways they can't control it.

Will they outlaw ball point pens? They can write company secrets on paper tucked in a wallet after all. How about erasing our memories before we go home?

Sorry, I'm going offtopic in a big Socialist way now.
 

MorganX

macrumors 6502a
Jan 20, 2003
853
0
Midwest
>>Everyone wave to the Microsoft apologist.<<

If not buying into your fantasies makes me a Microsoft apologist then I guess i am that.

>>For whatever reason, Morgan seems to believe that Microsoft doesn't want this to be a standard across the board, where they'll own the personal and business computer market in-toto. I've had this argument with him before and there's nothing you can say to convince him otherwise.<<

Everyone who makes a product wants it to be a standard, so what? Are you afraid to buy a padlock? You think the padlock maker has any more access to your locked up shiznit than anyone else. This whole argument is idiotic and senseless. Just anti-Microsoft BS for people with nothing else to talk about so they make up something for those who are clueless and have nothing better to do but listen.

>>Hardware lockouts won't work<<

The most successful antipiracy devices are hardware-based. They are cumbersome and expensive, but of course, they work.

>>The solution isn't spying,<<

While Palladium has NOTHING to do with spying for those of us not in fantasyland, spying is a very effective deterrent. This has been proven by many studies. And for those it doesn't deter, it usually convicts.

> it's having trustworthy employees.<

Well, we're well into the 21st century and the world still hasn't become "pleasantville" with perfectly honest employees from top to bottom, so let's throw that one in the trash bin where it has been since the first prostitute hit the street.


>>The problem is ancient, and draconian measures won't fix it.<<

Yeah right. Cameras on cash registers don't deter employee theft. Locks on safes don't deter theft. Police patrolling the neighborhood don't deter theft. DRM in digital files doesn't deter file sharing of those files. Car alarms and "the club" don't deter car theft, insurance companies discount when you install them because they want to give away money. Keep going, you're starting to make a believer out of me.


>>Is it any coincidence that someone who likes Windows has this attitude? My guess is no.<<

Wish I had seen this comment first. It explains the lace of knowledge of the product, deterrents in general, and any arguments based in reality. Nothing more than another out-of-control Zealot.
 

thatwendigo

macrumors 6502a
Nov 17, 2003
992
0
Sum, Ergo Sum.
Are you afraid to buy a padlock? You think the padlock maker has any more access to your locked up shiznit than anyone else.

Does the padlock maker have basically effortless and instant access to the system the way that Microsoft would? Does the padlock maker control how I use the lock, whether it will work if I don't meet their exacting criteria that can change after I've bought the product, or in any way alter the information or property I might use the lock to secure? As a final note, does having the padlock actually make it easier for people to circumvent my security, because the lock itself has weaknesses that make the walls or cabinet less efficient?

Your analogy is terrible.


This whole argument is idiotic and senseless. Just anti-Microsoft BS for people with nothing else to talk about so they make up something for those who are clueless and have nothing better to do but listen.

I've been reading about Palladium and TCI since they were first revealed, actually. The difference is that I can also read the writing on the wall, and that I apparently choose sources other than Paul Thurott and the Redmond Six Piece Band.

The most successful antipiracy devices are hardware-based. They are cumbersome and expensive, but of course, they work.

Name one mass-market hardware anti-piracy measure that is related to software or information stored on computers.

While Palladium has NOTHING to do with spying for those of us not in fantasyland, spying is a very effective deterrent. This has been proven by many studies. And for those it doesn't deter, it usually convicts.

Microsoft on Palladium

A closed sphere of trust binds data or a service to both a set of users (logon) and to a set of acceptable applications. As shown in Figure 2, the nexus (formerly referred to as the Trusted Operating Root, or TOR) does not simply open the vault; the nexus will open only a particular vault, and only for a small list of applications.​

HMMM. THIS DOES NOT SOUND BAD. IT IS ALL ABOUT TRUST AND NOT COTROLLING DOCUMENTS AND RIGHTS THROUGH HARDWARE. WE DON'T MONITOR YOUR SYSTEM, WHICH IS WHY XP STOPS WORKING. UH...

PAYNOATTENTIONTOTHEMANBEHINDTHECURTAIN.

More seriously, if you read the paper at all and remember how much Microsoft lies and twists the truth, a pretty vivid picture is painted. Programs that aren't 'trusted' are locked out, as is data. All Microsoft has to do is convince people to turn it on, lock out the ability to turn it off (it's a feature!), and then they own you.

The Register weighs in.

From the MS patent application:
"a computerized method for a digital rights management operating system comprising: assuming a trusted identity; executing a trusted application; loading rights-managed data into memory for access by the trusted application; and protecting the rights-managed data from access by an untrusted program while the trusted application is executing."

But wait... Palladium isn't about DRM, they said! :rolleyes:

""Controls your information after you send it." Yes folks, here it comes, DRM - we've softened the bullet point head, but accidentally got onto the record companies in the next sentence. But they've evolved: Palladium "could allow users to exercise 'fair use' (like making personal copies of a CD) and publishers could at least start releasing works that cut a compromise between free and locked-down."

We're not entirely sure we know these record companies, but they're clearly not related to the ones who're trying to stop you playing your music CDs on your PC, copying your CDs at all, and salivating at the prospect of time-limited/per play rental arrangements."


Well, we're well into the 21st century and the world still hasn't become "pleasantville" with perfectly honest employees from top to bottom, so let's throw that one in the trash bin where it has been since the first prostitute hit the street.

My dad's company has never had a known, major theft. They rely on employees as much as they do on technology. There's the exception that disproves the rule.

Have a nice day.

Wish I had seen this comment first. It explains the lace of knowledge of the product, deterrents in general, and any arguments based in reality. Nothing more than another out-of-control Zealot.

Lack of knowledge?
 

Fukui

macrumors 68000
Jul 19, 2002
1,630
18
MorganX said:
Cameras on cash registers don't deter employee theft. Locks on safes don't deter theft. Police patrolling the neighborhood don't deter theft. DRM in digital files doesn't deter file sharing of those files. Car alarms and "the club" don't deter car thef...
Your absolutely correct on that one! I agree with you 100%.
 

amyhre

macrumors member
May 13, 2002
32
0
Regarding something said earlier about the stupidity of computer users, and the complete lack of knowledge of the tools they use: Maybe there should be licensed computer operators, like licensed drivers. That may weed out some of the bad ones. Of course, there are people with licenses who are still bad drivers, drive recklessly, or drunk and also those who drive without licenses. I guess that wouldn't work. In terms of Longhorn, it looks like they're copying Apple all over again, plus adding more control to Microsoft as well as features the user will never use. Now I don't use all the cool features that MacOS X upgrades have added or brought back, mind you, but the ones I use seem to make life easier and make sense to use. Microsoft's don't.
 

SeaFox

macrumors 68030
Jul 22, 2003
2,619
954
Somewhere Else
amyhre said:
Regarding something said earlier about the stupidity of computer users, and the complete lack of knowledge of the tools they use: Maybe there should be licensed computer operators, like licensed drivers. That may weed out some of the bad ones. Of course, there are people with licenses who are still bad drivers, drive recklessly, or drunk and also those who drive without licenses.

A feeling I've expressed many times to people, and thought in my head while talking to people who are mad because such-and-such website isn't working right but have no idea what a web browser is.

One stipulation I would add is that the Internet not be a "Level 1" allowed activity. That one should learn how to use their computer itself before they think of going online. Make information courses in avoiding spam, viruses, and phishing scams part of the requirements before one could do anything on the Net. This would help slow the spread of viruses and the wasted money an resources of spam and identity theft.

A licensing scheme for computers offers other advantages. Age verifictaion for adult sites. Individuals who have a history of gambling problems can be kept out of online gaming sites. Pedophile can be kept out of any child-related internet sites. The young can be blocked from online commerce sites.
 

Macaddicttt

macrumors 6502a
Apr 22, 2004
993
3
San Diego, CA
SeaFox said:
A licensing scheme for computers offers other advantages. Age verifictaion for adult sites. Individuals who have a history of gambling problems can be kept out of online gaming sites. Pedophile can be kept out of any child-related internet sites. The young can be blocked from online commerce sites.

Yeah, but is this realistic? I don't think so. How are you supposed keep all the websites in the world categorized and allowed to certain users. See parental controls software. Some of it is better than others, but none of it is perfect. There's always a way around it. The internet could never be regulated in the way that you described.
 

rainman::|:|

macrumors 603
Feb 2, 2002
5,438
2
iowa
I don't understand this notion that Palladium will never get out of hand, because users will revolt against it. First off, users will have nothing to say, they can switch to a different OS but how many really will? Secondly, and most importantly: Users pay no attention to what they're being handed. That's why the OS marketshare is where it is right now. The more people don't understand a product-- like cars, or home mortgage, or septic systems-- the more advertising controls the market. It's a byproduct of capitalism, and it can always be counted on... consumers can be told what products to buy when they're confused. Microsoft could implement whatever the hell they want, and the vast majority of people will adapt to it. Nothing at all is standing in the way of Microsoft abusing palladium... Not law, not competition, nothing.

Palladium (i know it has a new name now, i don't really care) is probably the biggest threat to digital freedom that we've ever known. As if it's not bad enough that MS will use Palladium as a corporate tool, the government is bound to get involved... The Patriot Act gives the government a lot more access to private business, and MS is sucking up hardcore to get in line for the next generation of tech contracts (they've already got a contract with the Dept. of Homeland Security, for instance). How long before it's used to prohibit the planning of political protests? Disrupt communications instantly? A little tinkering, and suddenly all digital data on a particular subject is frozen, inaccessible. No more whisleblowing. As was said above, this could be used to steal intellectual property from users by way of fine print. Typed that book up in Word? You have to get permission before you can send it to a publisher.

Palladium does come with a slew of badly needed improvements for Windows, but we've seen from Mac and Linux that those improvements can be made much less invasively with much the same effect. I sure as hell don't need a regulator on my processor to keep junk mail out...

paul
 

slughead

macrumors 68040
Apr 28, 2004
3,107
237
I can't wait for someone to crack the Palladium code so I can browse the internet with websites thinking I'm Bill Gates.

Longhorn will probably fail, like Windows XP failed.
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
slughead said:
I can't wait for someone to crack the Palladium code so I can browse the internet with websites thinking I'm Bill Gates.

Longhorn will probably fail, like Windows XP failed.

No offense but if you really think XP failed you need to check you head. Are you comparing it to OS X, because then it is a failure. But XP replaced Windows ME and 2000. XP was definitely a step in the right direction.
 

Mechcozmo

macrumors 603
Original poster
Jul 17, 2004
5,215
2
Back on the topic, talking about Longhorn (named for the Long time that it will take to come out). While I am sure that MS unoffical mission statement is to take over the world, we really don't need to care about that right now.
 

DavidLeblond

macrumors 68020
Jan 6, 2004
2,323
600
Raleigh, NC
grapes911 said:
No offense but if you really think XP failed you need to check you head. Are you comparing it to OS X, because then it is a failure. But XP replaced Windows ME and 2000. XP was definitely a step in the right direction.

I could see Windows ME... hell Windows 95 was a step up from that... but Windows 2000? Windows 2000 was actually not that bad of a release. Where I work we prefer it over XP most of the time.
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
DavidLeblond said:
I could see Windows ME... hell Windows 95 was a step up from that... but Windows 2000? Windows 2000 was actually not that bad of a release. Where I work we prefer it over XP most of the time.

I think everyone agrees that it is better than ME. People debate is which is better: 2000 or XP. I think that XP is 2000 with some more dressings. If others like 2000 better, I'm not going to argue with them (esp in a business environment). But lets be real, XP was not a failure.
 

slughead

macrumors 68040
Apr 28, 2004
3,107
237
grapes911 said:
No offense but if you really think XP failed you need to check you head. Are you comparing it to OS X, because then it is a failure. But XP replaced Windows ME and 2000. XP was definitely a step in the right direction.

XP was supposed to have an 80% market share by now, however they have somewhere around 40%.

Marketing failure is what I meant.

And by the way, XP crashes 50% more than Windows 2000.
 

Apple Hobo

macrumors 6502a
Mar 19, 2004
796
0
A series of tubes
paulwhannel said:
I don't understand this notion that Palladium will never get out of hand, because users will revolt against it.

I was thinking the same thing. Windoze Lemmings have a high tolerance to the bull**** that MS continually feeds them.
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
slughead said:
XP was supposed to have an 80% market share by now, however they have somewhere around 40%.

Marketing failure is what I meant.

And by the way, XP crashes 50% more than Windows 2000.

Ah, I don't know if they set figures, but if what you say is true, I guess I can agree with ms as a market failure.
But...My computer used to have to be rebooted every other week or so with Win2000. I restart about every 4 to 6 months with XP. I'd love someone to conduct a real scienctific study on which on crashes more. I'd guess that XP crashes 80% percent less.
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
slughead said:
XP was supposed to have an 80% market share by now, however they have somewhere around 40%.

According to CNN, as of January 24, 2004, Windows holds over 90% of the market share.


CNN said:
With such an innovative and intuitive product, then why is Apple's market share just 3 percent to 5 percent, with Microsoft Windows claiming more than 90 percent worldwide?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/01/23/mac.birthday/index.html


Where did you get your info from?
 

ravenvii

macrumors 604
Mar 17, 2004
7,585
492
Melenkurion Skyweir
grapes911 said:
According to CNN, as of January 24, 2004, Windows holds over 90% of the market share.

He meant Windows XP. The 90% figure is for all the Windows versions, from 3.1 to XP. XP itself only has 40% marketshare (or so he says, I wouldn't know :) )
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
Raven VII said:
He meant Windows XP. The 90% figure is for all the Windows versions, from 3.1 to XP. XP itself only has 40% marketshare (or so he says, I wouldn't know :) )

I know the 90% is for all of windows (sorry I didn't specify). But what I'm saying is that this is the best info I can find. If windows has 90% of the market share, am I really to believe that XP only has 40%?
 

thatwendigo

macrumors 6502a
Nov 17, 2003
992
0
Sum, Ergo Sum.
grapes911 said:
I know the 90% is for all of windows (sorry I didn't specify). But what I'm saying is that this is the best info I can find. If windows has 90% of the market share, am I really to believe that XP only has 40%?

Yes, you are. The largest part of Windows users are still on legacy operating systems like 95, 98, 2000, and ME, which even Microsoft has admitted in public. Their overal adoption numbers are higher than those for OS X, but the proportion of upgraders is lower.

It's really not all that hard to believe, when you consider the aging hardware in other parts of the world, the way that many people don't buy things just to have cutting edge (even here in the US), and that plenty of people are computer illiterate but have a machine anyway. Grandma might have a PC, but that doesn't mean she bought XP when it came out, because she's still got the OEM discs that came with it when she bought. Similarly, developing economies are unlikely to have high-end hardware or software, and so they're going to have second or third generation back computers and an OS that won't choke them.
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
thatwendigo said:
Yes, you are. The largest part of Windows users are still on legacy operating systems like 95, 98, 2000, and ME, which even Microsoft has admitted in public. Their overal adoption numbers are higher than those for OS X, but the proportion of upgraders is lower.

It's really not all that hard to believe, when you consider the aging hardware in other parts of the world, the way that many people don't buy things just to have cutting edge (even here in the US), and that plenty of people are computer illiterate but have a machine anyway. Grandma might have a PC, but that doesn't mean she bought XP when it came out, because she's still got the OEM discs that came with it when she bought. Similarly, developing economies are unlikely to have high-end hardware or software, and so they're going to have second or third generation back computers and an OS that won't choke them.

You are the 2nd or 3rd person to say something along these lines, but where is the proof? MS said so in public? How come I can't find something on the net about it. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I would like to see a credible web site back you up.
 

SeaFox

macrumors 68030
Jul 22, 2003
2,619
954
Somewhere Else
slughead said:
XP was supposed to have an 80% market share by now, however they have somewhere around 40%.

Marketing failure is what I meant.

Really, Have you checked the latest figures for OSX adoption? Last I heard OS9 was still the majority. Dead OS indeed...

And by the way, XP crashes 50% more than Windows 2000.

I'd really like to see your source for that figure.
 
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