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Likvid -
I'll admit that Apple is lacking in video cards. However, I'm pretty sure Apple got either USB or Firewire before the x86 world. Their hardware is plenty fast. While technically, my Dual 867 G4 is not faster than a 2+ GHz PC, it sure gets things done faster. OS X is probably one of the best part about Apple, but not the only good part. When you speak of software compatibility, in my case, Windows doesn't have the software I prefer to use.(iChat, Final Cut Pro, etc.) Apple will not go the way of BeOS, considering Apple is one of the few computer companies currently making a profit.
 
Actually i prefer a dual AMD Opteron 2GHz with RAID SCSI and FreeBSD with Flux any day over a G5 PowerMac.

It will kick MacOSX ass any day......not to mention humongous faster.
 
I'm sure that installing applications is nice and easy on FreeBSD. And you were trying to say that Macs lacked in software compatibility?
 
Originally posted by Likvid
1. Less flexibility, you dont have any choices when you want to buy hardware components, Apple users have like 2 graphics cards to choose from, how fun is that?

It's fun because we can actually rely on Apple that the card will work. With PCs even though it says the card will work for XP, you have no idea whether your configuration supports it because there are so many configurations, making it unreliable. Apple chooses industry standards so there is no doubt on the consumer's side. If you want other cards that support the Mac, you are free to buy one and stick it into your PowerMac.


2. Apple hardware is slooooow and they copy everything from the x86 world like Firewire, USB and everything.....

Okay, what is this? FireWire, as mkaake has already shown, was developed by Apple. USB, on the other hand, was developed by Intel but Apple was actually one of the first companies to incorporate it into their machines and actively support it. Take a look here. Get your facts straight.


3. The only good thing about Apple is their OS, OSX.

Oh of course, Microsoft has so many good products... let's see here, uhh Windows, Windows, and Windows. 🙄

Have you personally touched and worked with Macs before? The architecture of the iMac, G4 PowerMac, and the G5 are far superior to any PC I have seen or worked with. Nothing beats the awesome accessibility of the G4's insides - one door.


4. There is no software at all really, there are no good software for receiving digital satellite broadcast channels, there are no good stock broker software like Metastock, there are lots software that Mac doesn't have which make it very handicaped as a productive platform.

Maybe it's more like Macs don't have lots of the junk software like Windows has. Almost all the first-class software companies support OS X, assuring quality software. Where these companies don't fill in, there are plenty of shareware developers who make almost anything and everything. No software at all? Check out VersionTracker, it will show you the tens of new software released every day.


Everyone is bragging about the G5 PowerMac, it's really nothing special about it, in the x86 world we had AMD Opterons for while and they are much faster than the G5.

For a while? Let's say 2 months. And currently the only way to really get one is to build one yourself. And even those companies that do sell these Opteron Workstations price them about $1000 more than the G5 if you put in similar specs.

Mac users are not too design-oriented. It's just that we actually care what our machines look like. I can't stand sitting in front of a huge black box all day.

Oh, and in case you haven't heard, OS X's foundation, Darwin, is based on FreeBSD. And you cannot possibly say that the GUI of KDE or Gnome and such is more advanced than Aqua+Quartz.

Bleh.



irmongoose
 
You Apple users are so fixed with obsession of Windows as soon as some guy talk about PC hardware.

I have never brought up Windows, you did...

That's the great thing with PC hardware, you can run almost any OS you want at peak performance compared to Apple hardware which is mostly limited to OSX and some Linux distros.

Heck, i can even run SUN Solaris on mine....

Freedom is what it's all about.

Apple never gives the user choice or freedom, you do as Daddy Steve tells you to do..

One example is the obsession by the one-button mouse that Steve wants you to use...

Well, if you read the document further down you can read that Sony was one of the developers of IEEE1384.

So you are wrong...

IEEE is a standardisation organisation.

I don't understand why Apple users are so ignorant and live in their own fantasy world that Apple is the best.

Apple aint the best, just realize it.

I even thought about buying the Powerbook 17" and i am thankfull today that someone here told not to do so.....

Apple hardware is slow, you are welcome to try my Pentium-M 1.7GHz IBM Thinkpad with FreeBSD later on and you will realize what you have the missed.
 
Actually, the reason we buy Macs is (usually) to run Mac OS X. And OS X is the easiest OS to use, and the most efficient. And saying we are forced to use the one-button mouse is like saying you are forced to use Windows on an x86 machine. I don't use a one-button mouse on my Powermac.
 
Try use a two button mouse with your Powerbook while you are seated in your flight chair.

Where are you gonna put it? in your knee?

Its ridicolous, and you know that, right?
 
Most planes have tables. I hate laptop trackpads anyway, so regardless of how many buttons the laptop has, I'd probably get a trackball mouse if I were to use it on a plane.
 
why am I even taking the time to respond...

Originally posted by Likvid
Actually i don't like Microsoft at all.I hate their OS's.

Wow, something we can agree on.

However the hardware for x86 is excellent and you can get "exactly" what you want and you can run any Linux version or BSD you want.

You mean I can run any piece of hacked together unpolished, never-out-of beta OS on my machine? Sweet!

Apple users and Apple community is all about design and the looks of the computers, there are many drawbacks owning a Mac.

I'm sorry, I was unaware that people actually liked to look at dull, ugly computers...

1.Less flexibility, you dont have any choices when you want to buy hardware components, Apple users have like 2 graphics cards to choose from, how fun is that?

Pfft, the samn damn chipsets on Mac video cards are the same for PC ones, only the BIOS is different. Nvidia and ATI make all this chipsets for all the no-name cards you see at Fry's and whatnot, they just put it in a cheaper package, the only cards which don't have a Mac counterpart are the reallt high end ones like ATI's Fire and stuff...

2.Apple hardware is slooooow and they copy everything from the x86 world like Firewire, USB and everything.....

Yeah, we all know who invented Firewire and popularized USB, hmm....

3.The only good thing about Apple is their OS, OSX.

Matter of opinion.

4.There is no software at all really, there are no good software for receiving digital satellite broadcast channels, there are no good stock broker software like Metastock, there are lots software that Mac doesn't have which make it very handicaped as a productive platform.

There's not even software for receiving satellite broadcasts on the PC! There is no way the satellite companies would go for it at this time, not will all the rampant pirating that's going around..

I think Apple users are too much design and showoff oriented.

Yeah, those scratches on my iBook really add to its character.

Steve's best move would be to port OSX for x86 hardware....

Not again...

Everyone is bragging about the G5 PowerMac, it's really nothing special about it, in the x86 world we had AMD Opterons for while and they are much faster than the G5.

Does Final Cut Pro mean nothing to you?

And this stupid thing about one-button mouse with Macs.

I can't really understand any intelligent person defending this crap.

Woah there. I hate the one-button mouse just as much as anybody but there are some good arguments for it and I would never go so far as calling someone essentially stupid for defending it.

I am afraid MacOSX will go the same way as BeOS if Steve Jobs doesn't port OSX to the x86 platform.

http://www.macobserver.com/appledeathknell/index.shtml

Actually i prefer a dual AMD Opteron 2GHz with RAID SCSI and FreeBSD with Flux any day over a G5 PowerMac.

It will kick MacOSX ass any day......not to mention humongous faster.

Sorry, I actually prefer a nice GUI.

Heck, i can even run SUN Solaris on mine....

Whoop-de-frickin-do.

Apple never gives the user choice or freedom, you do as Daddy Steve tells you to do..

One example is the obsession by the one-button mouse that Steve wants you to use...

I happen to like my wireless Logitech thank you very much.

Well, if you read the document further down you can read that Sony was one of the developers of IEEE1384.

You mean IEEE1394? And did you even read the article? Sony didn't come in until before it was finalised as a standard, Apple were the ones to origionally come up with the technology.

I don't understand why Apple users are so ignorant and live in their own fantasy world that Apple is the best.

Apple aint the best, just realize it.

Matter of opinion.

Apple hardware is slow, you are welcome to try my Pentium-M 1.7GHz IBM Thinkpad with FreeBSD later on and you will realize what you have the missed.

Ah well, your loss. More for us!

Try use a two button mouse with your Powerbook while you are seated in your flight chair.
Where are you gonna put it? in your knee?

Yes. I can and I have.
 
Originally posted by Likvid
Freedom is what it's all about....Apple aint the best, just realize it.

So let me get this straight...freedom = best?

That's why M$ can't optimize their code, and have a plethora of security problems, because they have to make their software fit every POS PeeCee in the known universe 🙄
 
Originally posted by Likvid
I don't understand why Apple users are so ignorant and live in their own fantasy world that Apple is the best.

Apple aint the best, just realize it.

I even thought about buying the Powerbook 17" and i am thankfull today that someone here told not to do so.....

Apple hardware is slow, you are welcome to try my Pentium-M 1.7GHz IBM Thinkpad with FreeBSD later on and you will realize what you have the missed. [/B]

Why are you a Guest? It seems you're not even a Macintosh user, much less an owner. I for one do not find myself perusing PC rumor forums. This almost fits into PC weenies writing in letters to Mac Design.
 
Originally posted by irmongoose
It's fun because we can actually rely on Apple that the card will work. With PCs even though it says the card will work for XP, you have no idea whether your configuration supports it because there are so many configurations, making it unreliable. Apple chooses industry standards so there is no doubt on the consumer's side. If you want other cards that support the Mac, you are free to buy one and stick it into your PowerMac.

If the card specificaly says that it works for Windows XP then it went through Microsoft's Logo testing and certification, and that means it will work in your PC. OEM's also vigorously test each system they design before producing it to decrease tech support costs. Yes, Apple does choose for you. I've also never seen a computer store (and I've been to Mac stores) that actually sell the Apple versions of graphics cards.


Okay, what is this? FireWire, as mkaake has already shown, was developed by Apple. USB, on the other hand, was developed by Intel but Apple was actually one of the first companies to incorporate it into their machines and actively support it. Take a look here. Get your facts straight.

Yes, Apple did create FireWire 400 and it was an inovative move by them. That does't justify their other "standards". The Apple Display Connector is just DVI with USB ports... because everyone needs more USB ports, especially on their monitors (yes, there's a DVI-ADC adapter, but it costs $99 US). Then there's FireWire 800, which has a different plug so you can't plug a FireWire 400 device into it (not to mention you can't reach the maximum speed of FireWire 400 unless you're doing a ram-to-ram transfer, making FireWire 800 rather useless). At least USB 2.0 is 100% backwards compatible.


Oh of course, Microsoft has so many good products... let's see here, uhh Windows, Windows, and Windows. 🙄

You forgot Office. They also make a wide range of server software and lots of popular games. Thanks for admitting that Windows is a good product =)


Have you personally touched and worked with Macs before? The architecture of the iMac, G4 PowerMac, and the G5 are far superior to any PC I have seen or worked with. Nothing beats the awesome accessibility of the G4's insides - one door.

Sure, it might be easy to get inside, but why would you ever do that with a Mac? It's like wanting to open up your stereo system. Macs are, after all, known for being reliable and never ever requiring maintenance. Unless you bought the Power Mac G4 GeForce 4 Ti upgrade for only $399 or a new hard-drive (god forbid it doesn't have the Apple logo on it, otherwise things could go terribly wrong), there's really no reason to open up a Mac. You could make a PC case that is as accessible as a PowerMac but then you'd have to break the ATX form factor standard, and in the PC world we like sticking with standards.


Maybe it's more like Macs don't have lots of the junk software like Windows has. Almost all the first-class software companies support OS X, assuring quality software. Where these companies don't fill in, there are plenty of shareware developers who make almost anything and everything. No software at all? Check out VersionTracker, it will show you the tens of new software released every day.

Sure, there is lots of software for the Mac from big companies, but if you want some special program to do that special thing you need it to do, don't expect to find it for the Mac.


For a while? Let's say 2 months. And currently the only way to really get one is to build one yourself. And even those companies that do sell these Opteron Workstations price them about $1000 more than the G5 if you put in similar specs.

Longer than the G5 anyways. Those workstations aren't as hard to get as you think. They can also be cheaper than a G5 1.6, depending on what's in it, although they're ususally more expensive due to many gigs of ram or Fire GL/Quatro cards as well as fancy SCSI/RAID hard-drive setups. Building one yourself isn't that hard and most computer stores will do it for you if you give them a list of specs.


Mac users are not too design-oriented. It's just that we actually care what our machines look like. I can't stand sitting in front of a huge black box all day.

Wait, so you both care and don't care what your computer looks like? If you don't like black or beige, check out www.lian-li.com... they've been making aluminium cases long before Apple.


Oh, and in case you haven't heard, OS X's foundation, Darwin, is based on FreeBSD. And you cannot possibly say that the GUI of KDE or Gnome and such is more advanced than Aqua+Quartz.

Bleh.

Graphicaly Aqua does look better but technically it doesn't stand a chance against xfree86's customizability and all of the neat remoting capabilities. It's also been around much longer than Aqua and you don't need a PowerPC to run it (although it runs on that too).
 
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
Yes, Apple did create FireWire 400 and it was an inovative move by them. That does't justify their other "standards". The Apple Display Connector is just DVI with USB ports... because everyone needs more USB ports, especially on their monitors (yes, there's a DVI-ADC adapter, but it costs $99 US). Then there's FireWire 800, which has a different plug so you can't plug a FireWire 400 device into it (not to mention you can't reach the maximum speed of FireWire 400 unless you're doing a ram-to-ram transfer, making FireWire 800 rather useless). At least USB 2.0 is 100% backwards compatible.


I'd love to see you try and cram some broadcast or better quality HD across FW400. Apple seems to have this uncanny ability to predict what many people will be using a few years in advance and release/incorporate that technology into their comptuers today (newton, USB, Firewire, iMovie/iDVD, wi-fi ready, etc.,). So what may seem like overkill now, could be the norm in 2-3 years. Nothing wrong w/some forward thinking and future proofing IMO.

And every store I've been to that's had a Mac section has had the video cards. Be it Fry's in LA or CompUSA in Indiana. So I guess finding Mac video cards is a YMMV situation.


Likvid, OS X is the only good software Apple makes?

What about FCP 4 (including Soundtrack, Compressor, Live Type, and Cinema Tools), DVD Studio Pro 2, Shake, logic, iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, and iPhoto.


Lethal
 
Originally posted by Likvid
Actually i don't like Microsoft at all.I hate their OS's.

However the hardware for x86 is excellent and you can get "exactly" what you want and you can run any Linux version or BSD you want.
...
4.There is no software at all really, there are no good software for receiving digital satellite broadcast channels, there are no good stock broker software like Metastock, there are lots software that Mac doesn't have which make it very handicaped as a productive platform.

Can you point me towards Metastock for Linux or *BSD? I was under the impression Metastock only ran on Windows.
 
Originally posted by Gymnut
Well judging by your posts, you seem to give a crap.

hahah, what the hell are you talking about? The only reason I posted was to provide some damn perspective to some of the Mac bigots that are out there. Ever since I bought my 12" PB and came to these forums I will always see some kind of post ripping on Microsoft or Bill Gates. And every time I read those posts there's always some form of underlying resent or bitterness as if MS and Bill Gates did a great injustice not only to Apple but a personal injustice to the people of the Mac community as well.

hahaha, wtf is that? There's businesses out there that have done and do bad business practices all the time. But I really never see people going up in arms against those companies as the Mac and Linux communities do against Microsoft.

But hey, I guess whatever right? If some guy wants to go posting a thread ripping or whining about Microsoft/Bill Gates in order to provide some informal form of justice against the "evil" company known as Microsoft for the "great" company known as Apple, who am I to butt in right? Heh, looks like I was wrong in thinking that a community can be fans of something without having to rip on something else just to make the object of their affection all the greater.

wtf.
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I'd love to see you try and cram some broadcast or better quality HD across FW400. Apple seems to have this uncanny ability to predict what many people will be using a few years in advance and release/incorporate that technology into their comptuers today (newton, USB, Firewire, iMovie/iDVD, wi-fi ready, etc.,). So what may seem like overkill now, could be the norm in 2-3 years. Nothing wrong w/some forward thinking and future proofing IMO.

And every store I've been to that's had a Mac section has had the video cards. Be it Fry's in LA or CompUSA in Indiana. So I guess finding Mac video cards is a YMMV situation.


Likvid, OS X is the only good software Apple makes?

What about FCP 4 (including Soundtrack, Compressor, Live Type, and Cinema Tools), DVD Studio Pro 2, Shake, logic, iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, and iPhoto.


Lethal

What does FireWire have to do with broadcasting? What you call "forward thinking" seems more like a marketing gimmick to me. Devices can't quite go as fast as FireWire 400 yet, much less FireWire 800. Sure, they might go that fast in the future, but if you buy a computer with FireWire 800 now it won't make things faster then because the computer will be the bottleneck. The fact that FireWire 400 and FireWire 800 have different plugs is proof enough that it's just a ploy.
 
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
The fact that FireWire 400 and FireWire 800 have different plugs is proof enough that it's just a ploy.

hey - do you know that USB can not ever get any faster. Really. The limitations of the original design means it can not get any faster with out increasing the pins and in all essence becoming firewire. Now at six pins we have both FW400 and USB2. At nine pins we have FW800.

Firewire has a design max of 3.2Gbps. We are right now at .8Gbps. There is no more for USB. It will die and firewire will be all that is left.

Remeber the days when the old serial ports and a parralell port was all a pc needed? Well if that was always the case why did we go to USB? Why do DV cams have FW400 and not USB2? Why is sony going to release their next DVCAM camera with FW800?

I dont see a REAL (not that MiniDV crap) digital camera that has USB2 on it much less the all mighty USB.

Apple's first attempt at a high speed bus was enough for digital video - intel's wazs not. They needed Three tries to get it near and even then FW400 beats USB2 in all. Even the pc mags admit that FW is better.

Give up. FW will be there when USB is o the machines that are sold for $10 are the only ones with USB on them.
 
Originally posted by Jonathan Amend
1. I've also never seen a computer store (and I've been to Mac stores) that actually sell the Apple versions of graphics cards.

2. Then there's FireWire 800, which has a different plug so you can't plug a FireWire 400 device into it (not to mention you can't reach the maximum speed of FireWire 400 unless you're doing a ram-to-ram transfer, making FireWire 800 rather useless). At least USB 2.0 is 100% backwards compatible.

3. You forgot Office. They also make a wide range of server software and lots of popular games.

4. Thanks for admitting that Windows is a good product =)

5. Sure, it might be easy to get inside, but why would you ever do that with a Mac? Unless you bought the Power Mac G4 GeForce 4 Ti upgrade for only $399 or a new hard-drive (god forbid it doesn't have the Apple logo on it, otherwise things could go terribly wrong), there's really no reason to open up a Mac.

6. You could make a PC case that is as accessible as a PowerMac but then you'd have to break the ATX form factor standard, and in the PC world we like sticking with standards.

7. Sure, there is lots of software for the Mac from big companies, but if you want some special program to do that special thing you need it to do, don't expect to find it for the Mac.

8. Longer than the G5 anyways. Those workstations aren't as hard to get as you think. They can also be cheaper than a G5 1.6, depending on what's in it, although they're ususally more expensive due to many gigs of ram or Fire GL/Quatro cards as well as fancy SCSI/RAID hard-drive setups.

9. Wait, so you both care and don't care what your computer looks like? If you don't like black or beige, check out www.lian-li.com... they've been making aluminium cases long before Apple.

10. Graphicaly Aqua does look better but technically it doesn't stand a chance against xfree86's customizability and all of the neat remoting capabilities. It's also been around much longer than Aqua and you don't need a PowerPC to run it (although it runs on that too).

1. Look again. I've at least seen 5 different computer store chains which sell Mac video cards. I live in Japan so I haven't been to an Apple store, but I'm sure there are places which sell them in the US.

2. A different port? How about the transition from serial ports, PC/2, and ADB to USB? Didn't that involve different ports? In order to move on to new technology you have to incorporate them to new systems, otherwise peripheral companies won't make any products for them. Oh, and FireWire is also backwards compatible, all you have to do is attach a cheap adapter to your FireWire 400 plug just so it fits into the 800 port.

3. Apple also has the iApps, Keynote, server software, and has a bunch of useful technologies such as Rendezvous. And it doesn't charge customers ridiculously high amounts for them either.

4. Shut up.

5. Surely you don't only upgrade graphics cards. Hard drives, RAM, processor upgrades, and hard drive troubleshooting are all simplified with the G4's design, and although a little less convenient, the G5's. And who said the hard drives have to be Apple certified? I've stuck many no name drives or "Windows-certified" drives in a G4 and it has worked perfectly.

6. Microsoft is the god of proprietary products! How can you say "you like to stick to standards"?

7. As I've said, where major companies don't make the products, the shareware developers fill in. Do a search on VersionTracker for any kind of software. I'm sure you'll find an app for most of them.

8. I'm saying if you put the specifications the same for both the G5 and the AMD tower, the AMD ends up $1000 more. Don't compare machines with different specs.

9. It doesn't matter if it's aluminum, it's form factor is ridiculous. Those boxes are going to heat up pretty fast without a water cooling system.

10. Who cares how much you can customize it if it still looks like crap? It's been around much longer so it's automatically better? Macs let you do real work immediately without making you customize everything to make it work the way you want it to. Macs just work.



irmongoose
 
Longhorn is Microsoft's Copland. Enough said.

Originally posted by panphage
The BeOS was also supposed to have a database instead of a "normal" filesystem. It, too, failed. They said: too much overhead. From the way they talked about it, no one had tried it before. I myself don't know if the Apple and MS attempts predated the BeOS (1992/3?)

The BeOS file system was actually a great feature that was really sweet. Yes, Be failed, but who cares?
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The BeOS file system was actually a great feature that was really sweet. Yes, Be failed, but who cares?

I care. It was the first alternative OS that I'd tried that actually worked very well for what I needed it to do (which wasn't that much). It also 'just worked'. It was my primary OS for a while (with win2k around just in case, long before I switched to the light side). I liked it so much I bought stock in it, but we all know how that turned out 😛

As a side note, is there a way to set up a BeOS partition on OS X? Thought it'd be fun for old times sake.
 
Originally posted by dbally
I care. It was the first alternative OS that I'd tried that actually worked very well for what I needed it to do (which wasn't that much). It also 'just worked'. It was my primary OS for a while (with win2k around just in case, long before I switched to the light side). I liked it so much I bought stock in it, but we all know how that turned out 😛

And that's really my point: BeOS was a superb OS that Apple would have done well to adopt, and that the consumer would have done well to adopt. It failed, but that means nothing in terms of its quality.
 
One word:
BetaMAX

this proves that superior products end up only being used by the people who know about the entire market. VHS is the deFacto standard cause it was cheaper. BetaMAX is used in most TV and film studios worldwide cause it loads faster, it has a higher quality and degradation is 10-20 times slower.

Only last year did sony (format inventor vs. phillips, VHS' inventor) stop manufacturing BetaMAX players. Why? They said that these days, digital video can at least equal the quality and load times of BetaMAX with no degradation over time. They still make and sell BetaMAX tapes.

Now, my mac is better then your pc. Only people with knowledge of the entire market have them.

Sorry, windows is superior? No, it was cheaper to begin with.
 
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