Love TouchBar thread discussion [merged]

[maflynn]

It's not a killer feature, for sure. But I think it adds nicely to a great notebook. I do wish Apple would push it more - developers would embrace it if Apple invested more into it (adding new features, making it available on more devices, etc). Actually, most apps I use support it (every native macOS app), so I'd say the ball's in Apple's court. Either way, I like it even today.

Given the cost, and changes needed, I think apple was surprised by the negative reception. I have to believe they thought this was going to be a killer feature and it hasn't panned out that way. With Apple's penchant for removing things, I think its hard to get developers on board. Why add something that apple could very well remove in the next iteration.

 

[cfdlab]

Touchbar is what you get when apple prioritises form over functionality. This is clearly happening all over the macbook line. Loss of magsafe/ports, keyboard whose main purpose is just to look good, oversized trackpad, thin-nes leading to reduced battery (older 15 inch macbooks had 99.5 Whr battery which was reduced to 74 Whr in 2016/2017 models !!!). Making it look good is more important to apple than functionality. They have decided that more people like such superficial things since ordinary users dont care much about productivity. Tim Cook famously said most people just need an ipad, so they dont care about a functional keyboard anymore, just make it look good to fool the ordinary user.

Putting important keys like brightness, volume into the software is such a bad design. I predict this touchbar will not age well. So people like me who change laptops once in 5 years will be in big trouble.

 

[aevan]

Given the cost, and changes needed, I think apple was surprised by the negative reception. I have to believe they thought this was going to be a killer feature and it hasn't panned out that way. With Apple's penchant for removing things, I think its hard to get developers on board. Why add something that apple could very well remove in the next iteration.

Can't say that you're wrong. I just meant - I like it even as it is. Certainly more than F buttons, and also, I don't think TB is the main reason of the increased cost - I think Apple was planning to charge a fortune for MBPs anyway (to counter the shrinking market) and were looking to find a way to justify it.

Certainly, if I could get the same MBP without it, but for, say, $400-500 less, then I wouldn't get the TB. But since I think Apple was going to price them like this anyway (with or without the TB), I prefer them to function keys and it's a nice addition.

I am genuinely curious what the redesign of the MBP is going to be. I'm not expecting it for a few more years, though. People somehow think that we'll get it in 2019, my guess is 2021 at earliest.

 

[maflynn]

Certainly more than F buttons,

I use the f-keys every day, all day, so the loss of those is a bummer, but when I work on my desk, the laptop will be hooked up to an external keyboard so I have that going for me. I'm in all likihood getting the new MBP, The beast has been ordered and I'll be honest, my kids are excited, the TB is something they'll love playing with. The lack of tactile function keys will slow me down, but I'll have adapt.

 

[Paapaa]

I’m genuinely curious what you’re doing that is slowed down by the touchbar. You can still touch type and keyboard shortcuts as you would with any other keyboard. If all of the functionality gets in the way, you can easily customize it to perpetually show the shortcuts or just plain function keys.

Like I said, I mostly miss physical esc and the physical power button. In addition I miss physical volume buttons. All those can be pressed without looking at the row. With TB it is not possible. TB just renders the row less usable than it was. Maybe there are special apps where TB makes sense but most users seem to prefer physical keys.

 

[Cryates]

Developer support is lacking, for sure. But I like the Touch Bar and always have. I think years of using Mac and learning a muscle-memory sort of way of doing tasks you do makes you less inclined to use the Touch Bar at first. For me, I had to condition myself to use it for a lot of stuff, mainly in the stock apps that support it and now I like it a lot. I could, in reality, take it or leave it, and losing it would not make me upset at all. It's definitely a way overpriced premium for something that doesn't have a lot of third party support, but it is what it is at this point. Ideally, it'd be about $200 cheaper and they'd offer a spec-comparable nTB version of the Mac.

In the long-term (a few years down the road) we may see TB only Macbook's at some point.

 

[afir93]

I agree with your argument here. However, we're almost two years into the redesign and Apple haven't played with that ball much, have they? On the one hand they're still pushing for the TB (e.g. not updating the non-TB MBP was definitely not a coincidence), on the other I have the bad feeling they don't have a clue themselves about what they want to do with it...

There are actually some exciting new things for the Touch Bar coming this year. Outside of the support for True Tone on the hardware side of things, we are getting some additions in Mojave, first and foremost the ability to put our very own Automator shortcuts in there.

Previously we had to take the path via BetterTouchTool if we wanted different commands or things on there than what Apple thought fitting for us, so being able to put essentially any supported action or workflow that we like in there without any additional software is a pretty big deal. Think of it like the Shortcuts functionality coming to Siri in iOS 12, but with many fully-fledged commands that you would want to do on a Mac instead of on an iPhone/iPad. (Though I'm still wondering if Apple has any plans to bring the Shortcuts functionality to the Mac sometime and merge it with what Automator can already do, though that's another matter...)

There are also some other minor additions, for example the redesigned DVD player app now supports the Touch Bar, and there are some new tools for developers on what they can do with the Touch Bar if I remember correctly. So Apple most definitely doesn't perceive it as dead. Sure, there are more ways in which Apple could open it up in the future, but being able to do a big chunk of things with it in Mojave that previously required 3rd-party tools like BTT is a definite step in the right direction.

 

[cfdlab]

I need to have esc/spaces/brightness/volume buttons always there for my workflow. Cant have them disappear at their own whim. This is terrible design of a keyboard.

 

[Picapau21]

Any one else think that the touch bar was the first step to making each key on the keyboard out of an OLED? Which would then allow all manner of keyboard customisations.

 

[Cryates]

I need to have esc/spaces/brightness/volume buttons always there for my workflow. Cant have them disappear at their own whim. This is terrible design of a keyboard.

They don't disappear at their own whim? Those exact 'buttons' are literally always there on the TB unless you go into settings and customize the control strip.

 

[cfdlab]

They don't disappear at their own whim? Those exact 'buttons' are literally always there on the TB unless you go into settings and customize the control strip.

I can setup so that same function keys always show.

But then what is the use of the touchbar ? I have to shell out the money for something I dont use, since there is no option to get high spec 15 inch without touchbar.

 

[Cryates]

Any one else think that the touch bar was the first step to making each key on the keyboard out of an OLED? Which would then allow all manner of keyboard customisations.

I think the Touch Bar was just taking a portion of the keyboard that was largely not used by the average user, or at least rarely used, and giving it more of a purpose and flexibility to show relevant information for any given app.

I'd say what we are more likely to see in the long-term future of MacBook is a second, smaller display on the bottom casing, maybe adjacent to the trackpad or the in the space the trackpad currently occupies. Maybe some kind of "virtual trackpad". The physical keyboard has to remain in some form for a lot of reasons, especially for creative pros.

 

[poorcody]

I can setup so that same function keys always show.

But then what is the use of the touchbar ? I have to shell out the money for something I dont use, since there is no option to get high spec 15 inch without touchbar.

You can have the exact keys always show as you mentioned above, but still have the main strip variable. Really, you can set the thing up absolutely any way you want with a tool like BTT.

 

[Picapau21]

I think the Touch Bar was just taking a portion of the keyboard that was largely not used by the average user, or at least rarely used, and giving it more of a purpose and flexibility to show relevant information for any given app.

I'd say what we are more likely to see in the long-term future of MacBook is a second, smaller display on the bottom casing, maybe adjacent to the trackpad or the in the space the trackpad currently occupies. Maybe some kind of "virtual trackpad". The physical keyboard has to remain in some form for a lot of reasons, especially for creative pros.

the physical keys remain but the label can change. I saw a concept keyboard design like that years ago but I dont think it ever got made

 

[Cryates]

I can setup so that same function keys always show.

But then what is the use of the touchbar ? I have to shell out the money for something I dont use, since there is no option to get high spec 15 inch without touchbar.

If you're going to set up the trackbar with f-keys, then that's fine, but they can't appeal to all audiences here. The percentage of folks purchasing a TB MacBook and setting the Touch Bar to f-keys is probably staggeringly low. An upgraded nTB MacBook Pro is always there to purchase as well. I'm aware that it did not get this update, but this update was specifically geared towards the higher-end pro models and if the rumors of the Air/nTB MacBook's merging into a new design are true, then this fall (or next spring) should bring a pretty significant update to those who don't want a Touch Bar.
[doublepost=1531752125][/doublepost]You know what's really funny about all of this talk of needing the function keys shown at all times is, even on the nTB version you still have to press the fn key to use the functions. On the TB version, if you want to access the hidden function keys, you just have to do the same press of the fn key and they pop up on the TB. It seems likely a silly argument imo, unless your job requires that tactile feeling of physical function keys, because the functionality is the exact same.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I think the Touch Bar was just taking a portion of the keyboard that was largely not used by the average user, or at least rarely used, and giving it more of a purpose and flexibility to show relevant information for any given app.

I agree with that assessment.

My problem with it is that they don't make it optional.

Forcing features meant for the "average user" onto high end professionals (of various fields) is a frustrating mistake by Apple.

 

[poorcody]

Given the cost, and changes needed, I think apple was surprised by the negative reception. I have to believe they thought this was going to be a killer feature and it hasn't panned out that way. With Apple's penchant for removing things, I think its hard to get developers on board. Why add something that apple could very well remove in the next iteration.

I really doubt Apple is surprised by the vitriol on the Internet. Many of the big changes they have made over the years have had similar reactions. When you read MacRumors or social media and such, you really have to take the hyperbole with a big grain of salt. I know the anti-Touchbar voices are loud (they felt it necessary to hijack this thread, for example), but that doesn't mean they are the majority. There are literally people who think the MacBook keyboard failures are the majority of laptops, when the only real evidence I have seen suggests it's in the 8-12% range.

I think Apple has always wanted to get rid of the function keys. There was a story of jobs saying he wanted to "rip them all out". This was their way to finally do it without completing removing the functionality for those who need it. So I suspect the Touchbar will live on.

By the way, for those who miss physical function keys, one of my developers mapped the number keys with the "Fn" key, so, for example, pressing "Fn-1" sends an "F1" command.

 

[Cryates]

I agree with that assessment.

My problem with it is that they don't make it optional.

Forcing features meant for the "average user" onto high end professionals (of various fields) is a frustrating mistake by Apple.

I understand the frustration over not making it optional, but they do offer an upgradable nTB version of the 13" Macbook (yes I know it did not get updated in this release cycle), and I'd argue that most of the content creators who are purchasing something like a 15" MacBook Pro are going to get more use of the dynamically changing TB (for things like Final Cut, Photoshop, etc) then they would the physical function keys. And again, the function keys are just as accessible on the TB version as they are the nTB version because either way you still have the press the fn key first. You just lack that tactile feeling.

 

[cfdlab]

If you're going to set up the trackbar with f-keys, then that's fine, but they can't appeal to all audiences here. The percentage of folks purchasing a TB MacBook and setting the Touch Bar to f-keys is probably staggeringly low. An upgraded nTB MacBook Pro is always there to purchase as well. I'm aware that it did not get this update, but this update was specifically geared towards the higher-end pro models and if the rumors of the Air/nTB MacBook's merging into a new design are true, then this fall (or next spring) should bring a pretty significant update to those who don't want a Touch Bar.
[doublepost=1531752125][/doublepost]You know what's really funny about all of this talk of needing the function keys shown at all times is, even on the nTB version you still have to press the fn key to use the functions. On the TB version, if you want to access the hidden function keys, you just have to do the same press of the fn key and they pop up on the TB. It seems likely a silly argument imo, unless your job requires that tactile feeling of physical function keys, because the functionality is the exact same.

You dont need to press fn key to use function keys.

Some of use dont find touchbar useful but actually makes us less productive.

What I dont understand is why many are hell bent on trying to educate us about the benefits of touchbar. I am a long term pro user, always got highest spec machines, I know what I want. Please stop telling me what I should want.

Some people like it, fine. Our complaint is not against you. Our complaint is against apple for not giving us a choice and making us less productive.

 

[PhilMacbook]

You dont need to press fn key to use function keys.

Some of use dont find touchbar useful but actually makes us less productive.

What I dont understand is why many are hell bent on trying to educate us about the benefits of touchbar. I am a long term pro user, always got highest spec machines, I know what I want. Please stop telling me what I should want.

Some people like it, fine. Our complaint is not against you. Our complaint is against apple for not giving us a choice and making us less productive.

The whole point of the thread was to educate me and others about the benefits of the Touchbar. Some have tried to revert to the usual lazy negativity about it but there are lots of other threads for that. Thank you to those who posted positive stories as they have helped me realise I may get some good use from it.

 

[BigMcGuire]

To the OP: I'm a super fast touch typist. Initially I was neutral about the touch bar. I actually preferred, and still do, physical function keys. That said, having ACTUALLY USED the touch bar for over a month and a half now, I've gotten used to it and found it to be … functional. If you actually own the product, you'll get used to using it. Which makes me agree with a lot of the posters I've quoted below.

The fact that almost every app I use has custom touchbar options has made it EXTREMELY usable for me from forwarding songs, switching tabs, accepting popups, doing actions that otherwise would require the mouse. I like it.

No, most of them don't have the new MBPs, those that do mostly like it but don't post about it, the rest are just people who like to criticize.

The Touch Bar is certainly great when you find a good use for it, even more so when you customize it with BTT.

I have to agree with this. The IN REAL LIFE people I've talked to actually like it, my wife and I included (we like it). Like with anything you buy that you're not used to, you get used to it over time. Thanks for the info about BTT - buying it now!

Pay no attention to negative stories, MRF is mostly about negativity mode for the past year or so. From iPhone X to macOS, everything sucks and Tim Cook should be fired.

Reality is, Touch Bar, while not perfect, is a very useful tool when used right. BTT has some really good things for it that you can't replicate with the keyboard (like a two-finger customizable swipe). Also, the flicks feature is really quick and I actually prefer it to increasing volume/brightness with buttons (just flick the button, try it!). I also love the language input source change on the TB - since I switch between English and Serbian all the time, it's one tap to change, near the keyboard and best of all, it shows the current language.

I also use it to switch tabs in Safari all the time - it's great.

Photoshop has some nice uses for it too, like using it for the swatch panel and to tweak a color - and this comes from someone who uses keyboard shortcuts in PS heavily (I even have additional keys set in BTT).

Spelling suggestions are also cool. Also - I use it in Mail and Evernote as well.
[doublepost=1531737042][/doublepost]

No, that's just Macrumors Forums for you.

Summarizes it well for me. I REALLY like how I can accept/decline calls via it as well. (Just did so right now). lol.

But to bring attention to your MRF has been very negative for the last year or so. I can't stand it anymore. I come here to enjoy Apple products... because like millions of other users, we actually enjoy these products. Yes, I had to save up for them and wait until I could afford them... why people feel the need to criticize something they can't or don't own is beyond me.

You can have the exact keys always show as you mentioned above, but still have the main strip variable. Really, you can set the thing up absolutely any way you want with a tool like BTT.

Thanks again for recommendation for BTT. Getting that now.

 

[cfdlab]

The whole point of the thread was to educate me and others about the benefits of the Touchbar. Some have tried to revert to the usual lazy negativity about it but there are lots of other threads for that. Thank you to those who posted positive stories as they have helped me realise I may get some good use from it.

The thread title has a question mark. My answer: I dont see any positives.

 

[Cryates]

What I dont understand is why many are hell bent on trying to educate us about the benefits of touchbar. I am a long term pro user, always got highest spec machines, I know what I want. Please stop telling me what I should want.

Taken directly from the Apple support page:

• If you want to use one of these keys as a standard function key, hold the Fn key (usually in the lower-left corner of the keyboard) while pressing the function key. For example, pressing Fn-F10 (speaker icon) performs the function assigned to the F10 key instead of toggling mute on or off.

Yes, you do have to press the fn key out of the box. Now, you can change that to where they always operate as a standard function key, but you can equally set the function keys to always show on the touch bar. Again, it's the same functionality.

Also, you came into a thread specifically titled "Positives with the TouchBar?" and want to know why people in this thread are "hell-bent" on trying to educate the benefits of said Touch Bar? We get it, you don't like it. Your signature says it's a gimmick. I'm not sure you why you'd venture into this thread and trash it with negative remarks.

I also cannot find where I told what you should want. You'll want what you want, and that's great, but don't act like there are no options for you. You can get an upgraded 13" nTB with physical keys or you can change the Touch Bar on a 13" or 15" to always show function keys.

 

[cfdlab]

So we have to shell out more money to buy a software to make touchbar useful. Another example of the state of legendary apple design.

A keyboard should have a uniform design. If some keys are standard and some touch, you have to keep changing your effort to interact with it. This may not be a problem for most users, but it is a problem for me, as I work fast.
[doublepost=1531756519][/doublepost]

Taken directly from the Apple support page:

I also cannot find where I told what you should want. You'll want what you want, and that's great, but don't act like there are no options for you. You can get an upgraded 13" nTB with physical keys or you can change the Touch Bar on a 13" or 15" to always show function keys.

You are doing it right here.

 

[Painter2002]

They seem to have started something though, anyone seen the new Asus ZenBook. Having it in the trackpad would be more of an annoyance.

https://www.asus.com/uk/Laptops/ASUS-ZenBook-Pro-15-UX580GD/

Very interesting!

Now if I were a engineer/designer though, I’d have designed it to where that trackpad went across the entire bottom with a built in palm rejection for when using the keyboard or using it in trackpad mode.

I could see this going somewhere indeed.