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M4 Pro Mac mini - form over function?
- Thread starter Peter_M
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I think you are getting bogged in narrowly classifying a vent as only a single relatively large hole. I meant as a general air flow ingress/egress passage. 'Mesh' versus 'vent' I'm not trying to drive huge semantic gap between those two. -
Bouncing through the origin teardown link of the MacRumors article teardown link I posted before:
https://www.macstadium.com/blog/first-look-mac-mini-with-m2-pro
The holes drilled through the aluminum plate bottom ... 'vent'/'mesh'/passage. The gap through the plastic bottom so the air can get to those holes also pragmatically part of the same 'vent'.
The classic Mini and Mac Studio are generally structured like a classic floor vacuum cleaner. The suck in air on the bottom and blow it out the back. How many individualized holes the air passes through on each of those sides isn't particularly relevent as much as there are two independent collections of holes.
For the short to intermediate term, it was far cheaper for Apple just to use the same design they already had. It was also more far more flexible to allow a Mx Pro version. ( could have been a M1 Pro Mini version also if logistics were smoother. )
Reusing the same case to get higher shared costs between two ( or more ) products across generations and/or variations is what is driving this. The plain Mx Mini could have a different container than the Mx Pro. It would just be lower (but still above average) margins for Apple.
' if it had a mesh' ? ( holes in the bottom)... those are extremely likely still there.
I suspect Apple is more than happy with that meme. Customers walk themselves up the product line up. Full core count Mx Max might to slightly too much for a MBP 14" ... better buy the MBP 16".
The 14core M4 Pro , 48GB RAM is $1,999 and entry Studio $1,999 . If the Studio was on M4-generation also, that would be 'easy'. Likely for a long while this will be complicated, because it won't be step up in performance on many workloads.
With the significantly longer staggered transitions for the highest end desktops Apple is also 'pulling' people down back into the middle of the line up also.
If you’re a video content creator making a living off that, you probably would want to get the Mac Studio anyway to get the Max with the dual media encoders.
It is FAR better to go watch the full animation at the Apple website. The above is like showing a single frame in a high action movie and trying to deduce the full movie plot details.
......
Like the Mac Studio I suspect the power supply is stuffed into the middle layer.
Mac Studio: Should You Buy? Features, Price, Reviews and More
The Mac Studio is a pro-oriented desktop Mac that's a hybrid between a Mac mini and a Mac Pro. Equipped with an M2 Max or M2 Ultra chip, tons of...www.macrumors.com
Oops, probably not the middle. But is using the stack it taller notion of the Studio.
On fresh look just looking for socket placement on the outside the box and just looking for power supply coils in the animation it looks like the power is on the 'top' . Also, it might be a good thing to put components that could shock you farther away from the initial open access panel.
( power supply has losses and there heat so they do need a moderate amount of cold ('blue') air to get up there. Hence why there is effort to blow cold air to the 'top' of the case.
The SoC is oriented to the space where it can be nearer the 'air flow exit' vent(s). Want to gather the heat and shortly send it straight out if possible.
Cold air naturally sinks and hot air naturally rises , but need the opposite in this enclosure due to where the ingress/egress vents are placed. The studio ( and somewhat classic mini ) don't have that issue.
As it’s not merely an ornament, it can be placed upside down—USB-C plugs are quite indifferent to orientation, aren’t they?
Usually the problem mounting farther away from the mounting arm/wall that folks are mainly trying to avoid is more torque. However, "Taller" here isn't coming as a unidimensional trade off. Height is going up by 40-42% , but weight is also going down by about 50%. That weight reduction going to reduce torque. So there isn't just a net increase. A large screen monitor probably weights more so its torque contribution will go up, but there is an offset here.
Similarly, because the Mini's nominal footprint is smaller, the VESA adapter bracket canweight less also. Mounting the Mini+bracket was always adding weight (and sometimes torque in arm/wall contexts. ).
A monitor that is 0.6 inches (1.42 cm) closer to the user isn't going to blow up ergonomics.
A different intermediate mounting bracket with longer screws may be needed. However, that is just different equipment; not a VESA disconnect.
For VESA mounts that were a monitor stand where the Mini is mounted on one side of the vertical and the Monitor on the other side. Taller might even better counter balance.
Mac mini Mount
Mount on the Wall, Under the Desk, or on the Back of a Monitor Features Mount your Mac mini on the wall, under the desk, the back of a computer, or any VESA compatible device Custom case to complement the Mac mini’s design and protect it from scratches Quick, easy, hassle-free installation -...
www.humancentric.com
Similarly if the monitor now weigh substantively more than the Mini , a smaller footprint and weight Mini doesn't have to be perfectly center of the VESA mount point. ( use both sides of the of the mount vertical and put the Mini on side and the monitor on the other result in monitor not farther away from mount point. )
There are likely a modest number of VESA+exterior factors contexts where the clearances just barely fit behind the monitor, but that really isn't VESA mount point dimensions mandated. That is monitor placement; not VESA constraints.
Underdesk mounting. If mounted away from the center where you legs go in the first place , it may be incrementally taller but the whole mount will be further away from where your legs are also. The footprint is 2" shorter too (the entire Mini is closer to the edge rather than the middle )
The "taller" blows up a substantial range of 1U rack height assumptions about how to embed the Mini. But that isn't VESA either.
I guess I don’t understand. Absent the souped up neural engines, what is missing from AI running on an M2 Max?
Yes, the logic board is in the middle. You can see the heat pipe going from the middle layer to the heat sink on the bottom back. Power supply on top. Blower fan and heat sink on bottom.Oops, probably not the middle. But is using the stack it taller notion of the Studio.
On fresh look just looking for socket placement on the outside the box and just looking for power supply coils in the animation it looks like the power is on the 'top' . Also, it might be a good thing to put components that could shock you farther away from the initial open access panel.
( power supply has losses and there heat so they do need a moderate amount of cold ('blue') air to get up there. Hence why there is effort to blow cold air to the 'top' of the case.
The SoC is oriented to the space where it can be nearer the 'air flow exit' vent(s). Want to gather the heat and shortly send it straight out if possible.
Cold air naturally sinks and hot air naturally rises , but need the opposite in this enclosure due to where the ingress/egress vents are placed. The studio ( and somewhat classic mini ) don't have that issue.
The circular foot on bottom is a ring of 3 openings consisting of 2 air flow intakes or 1 that is internally split, and one 1 outflow which is the exhaust from the heatsink. One major intake goes to the blower fan and the bottom of the logic board. The other air intake ducts its air through the power supply and on the top side of the logic board, then to the blower fan. Both flows go to the blower fan which then blows that air across heatsink fins (the heatsink). [The heat pipe can transfer heat from the SoC to the heatsink through a variety of nonactive ways.] Hotter air exhausts out of the heatsink and then out the exhaust slot of the backside of the foot.
It has a fan. You can see the outline of a circular blower (impeller et al) during the initial part of the air flow illustration. You can throw anything buoyancy related out the window. The fan will be like 1000x more effective at driving air flow than buoyancy. It's an entirely fan driven heat transfer system.
Some comments on form over function in the thread. Not from you but others. Doesn't make sense to me at all. What is the function of computer and what form should it take? It's been like 60 years, and computers come in rectangular boxes of various aspect ratios, save for a few oddballs. The Mac mini is a rectangular box like 99.9999999% of computers in the market and the past.
In regards to its size, there are multiple drivers there. Presumably, people agree that a smaller desk footprint is a net good. Apple has the best perf/Watt system and they can design their form factors to be smaller, and they are going to be doing that further. That's the rumor from Gurman for future hardware. Another driver is net-zero carbon emissions. Lighter, smaller, or both, reduces its carbon footprint. A good estimate of carbon footprint is just from a product's weight.
Heck, the people who want to easily access the power button can just place the Mac mini on its side. Problem solved. There will be a stand accessory to do that, just like there are for the old Mac mini and the Macbooks. The people who want a 3.5mm audio jack in the back can rotate it 90° and get halfway there. It's a small box, and it will be easy to move it and place it anyway, anywhere you want.
Here is what I think Apple's motion illustration is showing if my words weren't clear. Blue means cold air. Red means hot air.
Believe they are quite clever about it.
One bigger fan typically will run at lower rpm than smaller ones, and there`s greater potential for shaping blades, housing, intake and exhaust for noise and efficiency. Smaller fans would need longer (relative to the diameter of the fan housing) "channels" for exhaust, and those "channels" tend to generate noise AND resistance which demands more work for the impeller.
They need to layer it in order to get the fan diameter they need to keep the noise down, and Apple have done some truly great engineering to make it work. They did the right thing. The power button location isn`t the best, but will be great for under the desk mounting. Would probably use that once a week at most anyway... No biggie.
As mentioned before, I prefer to keep a very clean desk and mount a Mac Mini under the desk. But it is made to stay on the top, and I won`t see it behind my 32". The location of jack and 2 usb C in front makes sense in that respect. Personally, I would have liked a flat and wider box with all ports in the back, the jack in particular, as I would use that for speakers and bluetooth for my headset. That jack in the front will probably be the one thing annoying.
...but I doubt the concessions and workarounds Apple would have had to make for that would leave us with an inferior product to what they have made.
What I`d like to learn now is: When will the black Mini and Studio arrive? Would be more discreet, but Apple prefers their fixed gear to be a bit "in your face" I presume
To verify that, we’d need to wait at least another five days. We're merely assuming that it is Apple's engineering; it could very well be Chinese. 😏
One of the known manufacturers for cooling solutions in Macs is a company called Delta Electronics, a Taiwanese company, which produces fans for many electronic devices, including those used in Apple products.
The souped up neural engines are what is missing.
…and that comparison is M4 vs. M3, not M2. I don’t think it’s an extraordinary claim to suggest that the M4 Pro has overtaken the M2 Max.
The Apple TV with a fan has a clear separation of air drawn in/out of the base. The base is the only place that air enters and exits from. The “multi level” cooling seems to be the only difference in the new Mac mini.
Clearly, the “new” cooling solution was inspired by, or borrowed from the Apple TV.
Image source.
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Well said 👍🏻I think you are getting bogged in narrowly classifying a vent as only a single relatively large hole. I meant as a general air flow ingress/egress passage. 'Mesh' versus 'vent' I'm not trying to drive huge semantic gap between those two. -
Bouncing through the origin teardown link of the MacRumors article teardown link I posted before:
https://www.macstadium.com/blog/first-look-mac-mini-with-m2-pro
The holes drilled through the aluminum plate bottom ... 'vent'/'mesh'/passage. The gap through the plastic bottom so the air can get to those holes also pragmatically part of the same 'vent'.
The classic Mini and Mac Studio are generally structured like a classic floor vacuum cleaner. The suck in air on the bottom and blow it out the back. How many individualized holes the air passes through on each of those sides isn't particularly relevent as much as there are two independent collections of holes.
Quote:
"To verify that, we’d need to wait at least another five days. We're merely assuming that it is Apple's engineering; it could very well be Chinese. 😏
One of the known manufacturers for cooling solutions in Macs is a company called Delta Electronics, a Taiwanese company, which produces fans for many electronic devices, including those used in Apple products."
They produced the fan to Apple's design specifications. No one else uses it.
Interestingly the M4 mini has an aluminium heatsink (like the Studio Max) but the M4 Pro mini has an all copper 'thermal module', like the Studio Ultra.
From Apple's Tech Specs page:
** Recycled copper in the thermal module applies to Mac mini with M4 Pro chip only.
@chmania:
"To verify that, we’d need to wait at least another five days. We're merely assuming that it is Apple's engineering; it could very well be Chinese. 😏
One of the known manufacturers for cooling solutions in Macs is a company called Delta Electronics, a Taiwanese company, which produces fans for many electronic devices, including those used in Apple products."
They produced the fan to Apple's design specifications. No one else uses it.
Interestingly the M4 mini has an aluminium heatsink (like the Studio Max) but the M4 Pro mini has an all copper 'thermal module', like the Studio Ultra.
From Apple's Tech Specs page:
Materials
- 100% recycled aluminium in the enclosure and thermal module stage*
- 100% recycled copper in multiple printed circuit boards, multiple thermal module components...**
** Recycled copper in the thermal module applies to Mac mini with M4 Pro chip only.
I`m not arguing it will be silent. I`m arguing that a bigger impeller and a bigger fan housing provides better opportunities for engineering with the objective of reducing the noise.
Apple is pretty good at engineering, to the extent that their designs and tech solutions have become more or less industry standards - "all" laptops are designed more or less like Mac these days, with the exemption of Thinkpads (IBM design heritage stolen from GRiDcase who owned the trademark "Laptop" which turned into a generic term. In a sense Apple absorbed case design from GRiDcase too - they made a cast magnesium chassis which IBM took on as a magnesium plastic wrapped cage, and were the first to implement pointer control integrated in keyboards (rollerbar which IBM transformed into the little red dot and some buttons - still great)).
As for layered mini computers, I had a couple 2 decades ago, and they suffered the same issues as any Intel/AMD chipped hardware still do. They still can`t reduce the heat production from their chips and whenever they stuff their things into a small box they have to use their not so powerful end of their line-up to avoid noise. Intel should have been more concerned about their own products and spent less time causing damage to their competitors (by compilers for instance). Apple turned everything upside down with M-series.
I`m well aware of the massive work PRC is carrying out educating vast numbers of engineers++ which combined with pathetic salaries for labor makes PRC a serious competitor to different constellations. One also have to take into account the huge hacker community - industrial espionage - like draining everything from VW for 5+ years (that`s how to build an auto industry) and much more.
Guess it`s payback for the tea, porcelain and gunpowder back in the day.
It is not difficult to turn this into politics - or nationalism as you do - and I believe both are best left out from forums/sites like these. Leave the nationalism and politics to the ambitious scumbags everywhere who ruins everything for everyone anywhere. Have had the pleasure to visit Hong Kong, China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Pakistan and what not (lost count), and what people from different nations, religions and ethnic groups have in common are that all - we, you, they, are firmly convinced that they are superior to everyone else in any way one can think. If they/we all were right, all are wrong.
Nothing wrong with pride, but reality tends to beg to differ
No - at least not significantly.
Even a Mac Mini vs. something the size of a honking great Mac Pro or mini-tower PC is only an "improvement" if you don't need/want the internal expansion space - otherwise you end up with multiple boxes for storage, PCIe, hubs etc. and a rats-nest of wires taking up more desk space than the mini-tower.
...and once you've got a decent system down to the size of the original Mac Mini, going ever smaller brings diminishing returns and often backfires.
The typical location for a Mac Mini/Studio is the dead space under the overhang of your display. It isn't taking up useful workspace, other stuff can be stacked on top of/under it (unless somehow you need to pick it up to turn it on, but nobody would be daft enough to design it like that /s) - trimming an inch off the footprint brings very little advantage - and the original Mini was already perfect for VESA mounting behind a display in which case it would have zero footprint.
...and making it smaller has other costs. Enough has been said about the power button - which simply wouldn't be an issue if they's kept the old form factor. The M4 Pro Mini has "lost" a TB4/USB-C port c.f. the M2 Pro Mini - probably due to space constraints - so more people are going to rely on a hub/dock which takes up more desk space. Both Minis have also had their two USB-only ports moved from the back to the front - whereas extra front ports would be useful, these aren't extra - they're a replacement for the two rear USB-A ports (plus, remember, the M4 Pro has lost a port overall) and people who previously used those ports may now have to have devices permanently connected to the front - trailing cables over previously free desk area (or, again - get a hub, more desk area). Having cables sprouting from two sides of the machine isn't going to make VESA/under-desk/rack/security/etc. mounting any neater, either.
Now, the base M4 has arguably gained connectivity looking backwards - but looking at the M4 iMac we know it could probably have had 4 TB4 ports - obviously the M4 now has 4 rather than 2 TB controllers - so its not clear why the M4 Mini only has 3. Maybe the M4's extra TB controllers have come at the expense of the "spare" PCIe and USB lines used for 10G ethernet and extra USB ports on the old Mini, but that's not in evidence, whereas it is clear that the new design doesn't have space for a 4th TB port on the back (and missing out a TB retimer chip probably saves space on the mainboard).
We'll have to wait and see about the thermals - I doubt the M4 will be a problem, but the M4 Pro... well, Apple have messed up thermals for the sake of "smaller is better" in the past (2016 MBP, 2013 Mac Pro) but hopefully Apple Silicon will be more forgiving.
If I want to reduce my carbon footprint I'll stop buying prepared salad in plastic tubs. A new Mac every 4 years or so barely registers - and all that valuable aluminium in Macs helps making them worth recycling and helps ensure the other nasties get properly disposed of. If Apple wanted to make themselves "greener" then they should have offered a M4 logic board upgrade for existing Macs. As it is, "smaller is better" is a major driver and justification for non-repairability and planned obsolescence.
Seriously?
Then it wouldn't tuck in under the display and would take desk space that is currently unobstructed (and the stand would need a fairly large footprint to keep it upright against cables plugged in to the 'top rear'). Plus, they make the top smooth shiny silver and the underside black & covered with slots and labels for a reason... the alternative to "form over function " shouldn't have to be "to heck with form"...
I thought the old Mac mini was too large. Because of the reduction in size with the new one, I will be able to move it to a more convenient location in my setup. YMMV.
Fine - once you've accounted for whether you'll need a hub that you didn't before, or need to have cables plugged into the front ports, whether or not you need access to the power switch... How does the size advantage add up for you vs, say, the possibility of having an extra TB4 port?
Or, then again, maybe if Apple had stuck to the old form factor they could have offered a M4 Max version of the Mini?
Trouble is, Apple don't offer a huge choice of form factors. Until/unless the new Studio comes out (there's still no promise as to when, what or how much) the Mini is the only viable headless desktop that Apple offers. It needs to satisfy as many use-cases as possible - "works for me" doesn't really cut it.