M5 gaming

[Shirasaki]

Thankfully Cyberpunk 2077 exists on macOS nowadays, otherwise we would have very few if any solid games to really stress the GPU out of.

View attachment 2568220

Hmm, 1280x800, high preset, MetalFX set to balanced and ray tracing OFF.
So GPU might not be doing as much then, considering most people in PC world with somewhat modern (last 3 years) hardware would at least play the game in 1080P. Granted, if Cyberpunk 2077 runs on Mac’s native resolution, the performance gain would be so much smaller but still. Also why ray tracing off?
Regardless, I trust no Apple marketing numbers and will see how various benchmarks gauge the M5’s performance.
(And keep playing games on Windows because obviously)

 

[Shirasaki]

Apple knows we buy and play Mac games.
They also know we buy and use Crossover.

The M5 Pro and Max will arrive in the coming months.

I’m sure a lot of us will game on those too.

Here’s some money talk: “Apple is the world’s most valuable brand for the fourth year in a row”

“Most valuable brand” is a big stretch. “Most valuable brand in the tech world” maybe.
Crossover utilise translation. It isn’t native, so penalties apply, and not all games support it.
As for “a lot of games”, unless Apple can somehow produce GPU that is matching RTX 4090 in performance with much less power draw, gaming developers would continue to be cautious. Maybe devs don’t care what platform they develop the games on, but if the peak performance is not there, they would tend to hesitate.

 

[maflynn]

Unless they think Mac users are actually going to buy and play the game, they aren't going to make a Mac version

The Apple platform represents about 10 to 15% (depending on who you ask) of market share, out of that percentage, not every every mac user is a consumer, i.e., professional and corporate usages. From there we have to ask ourselves how many consumers who own a mac are actually interested in playing games? I suspect that number is a lot lower then many apple fans here would like to hear.

The bottom line is, is there enough mac owners who want to game, enough to justify game studios to add the cost of developing, and supporting a new platform, will they see a return on their investment? Since apple announced the apple silicon and was pushing the gpu capabilities of apple silicon, the answer has been no.

Will the M5 change that? In other words, would someone who was going to buy a steam deck, pc, or console suddenly consider a mac?

 

[maflynn]

View attachment 2568220

But what is the FPS? I believe the M4 (non-pro) was getting sub-30 fps without metalfx and with that, it was in the 40 fps range for cyberpunk

Correct me if my logic is flawed, or my math is wrong.

If we are to take the 1.6 increase as gospel, and cyberpunk 2077 was getting 26 FPS without metalfx on a M4 (non-pro), we can extrapolate that the M5 will get about 42FPS. With metalFX, the M4 was seeing about 45FPS, so 45x1.6 is 72FPS.

Asking chatgpt what GPU is equivalent to 72FPS with DLSS set to balanced, Its responded with 3070/3080 - take that for what you will regarding chatgpt. I think seeing that in the non-pro/max/ultra is quite impressive, and once the Pro/Max/Ultras are released we'll see some significant improvements.

 

[diamond.g]

But what is the FPS? I believe the M4 (non-pro) was getting sub-30 fps without metalfx and with that, it was in the 40 fps range for cyberpunk

Correct me if my logic is flawed, or my math is wrong.

If we are to take the 1.6 increase as gospel, and cyberpunk 2077 was getting 26 FPS without metalfx on a M4 (non-pro), we can extrapolate that the M5 will get about 42FPS. With metalFX, the M4 was seeing about 45FPS, so 45x1.6 is 72FPS.

Asking chatgpt what GPU is equivalent to 72FPS with DLSS set to balanced, Its responded with 3070/3080 - take that for what you will regarding chatgpt. I think seeing that in the non-pro/max/ultra is quite impressive, and once the Pro/Max/Ultras are released we'll see some significant improvements.

At 1280x800? ChatGPT reply seems higher than I would expect for the settings Apple used.

 

[maflynn]

At 1280x800? ChatGPT reply seems higher than I would expect for the settings Apple used.

I think it was 1080p

 

[max2]

More performance is good but then, not always, sometimes you get less battery life. Prefer close to the same performance with more battery life. I know low power mode no thanks.

 

[M4pro]

“Most valuable brand” is a big stretch…”

Here’s some money / “the bottom line is” / in-the-real-world-companies-have-to-be-good-at-analyzing-markets-and-making-smart-financial-decisions talk:

LONDON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Apple is once again the world’s most valuable brand. Brand Finance, the world’s leading brand valuation consultancy, values Apple’s brand at USD574.5 billion, ahead of second-placed Microsoft(USD461 billion).

According to Brand Finance’s research, four out of the five most valuable brands in the world are technology brands:

1. Apple: brand value of USD574.5 billion, up 11% from 2024
2. Microsoft: USD461.1 billion, up 35%
3. Google: USD413.0 billion, up 24%
4. Amazon: USD356.4 billion, up 15%
5. Walmart: USD137.2 billion, up 42%

 

[M4pro]

More performance is good but then, not always, sometimes you get less battery life. Prefer close to the same performance with more battery life…

Apple did go that way with their M3 Pro chip design for the MBP.

If Apple decides to ship a low-cost MacBook, maybe long battery life will be a selling point.

 

[M4pro]

Good things are happening with the arrival of M5.

Here’s Leman’s thoughts on real world results - the Blender benchmark:

“M5 scoring ~ 1700 in Blender benchmark is absolutely wild IMO. This is still a sub 20W (closer to 10W) GPU with merely 1280 shading units that we are talking about. Just to give some perspective, that's roughly 70% higher performance than Nvidia's Blackwell per Ghz and SM.”

 

[maflynn]

M5 scoring ~ 1700 in Blender benchmark is absolutely wild

What am I missing here?

Going to Blender I see the following scores
M4 (10 cores) - 1078
M4 pro (16 cores) 2377
M4 Max (32 cores) 4465
M5 (10 cores) 1732

Compare that to Nvidia's Mobile GPUs - Except the 20 series, I picked the base low end GPU from nvidia, since the M5 is the low end/base model from apple.

RTX 2070 TI Max-Q 1541
RTX 3050 TI 1122
RTX 4050 2582
RTX 5050 2935

I get that Apple is accomplishing a lot for a lower power mobile chip, but compared to Nvidia I'm not seeing what's wild?

 

[OptimusGrime]

What am I missing here?

Going to Blender I see the following scores
M4 (10 cores) - 1078
M4 pro (16 cores) 2377
M4 Max (32 cores) 4465
M5 (10 cores) 1732

Compare that to Nvidia's Mobile GPUs - Except the 20 series, I picked the base low end GPU from nvidia, since the M5 is the low end/base model from apple.

RTX 2070 TI Max-Q 1541
RTX 3050 TI 1122
RTX 4050 2582
RTX 5050 2935

I get that Apple is accomplishing a lot for a lower power mobile chip, but compared to Nvidia I'm not seeing what's wild?

You’re missing “with 1280 shading units” and “70% higher performance than Nvidia's Blackwell per Ghz and SM.”

 

[leman]

Compare that to Nvidia's Mobile GPUs - Except the 20 series, I picked the base low end GPU from nvidia, since the M5 is the low end/base model from apple.

RTX 2070 TI Max-Q 1541
RTX 3050 TI 1122
RTX 4050 2582
RTX 5050 2935

I get that Apple is accomplishing a lot for a lower power mobile chip, but compared to Nvidia I'm not seeing what's wild?

4050/5050 have twice the shader units, run at much higher click frequency and consume 3-5x more power.

Now, it’s obvious that Nvidia offers better performance and better value if you want performance on a budget. These are undeniable facts. But as a tech enthusiast who is interested in GPU architecture and computing, I find it absolutely impressive how far Apple got just in a few years without blowing up the die area or power budget. To me it is astonishing how much performance they can extract from a single compute partition running at sub 2 Gzh

 

[M4pro]

Keep in mind the basic 10-core M5 chip is for users more focused on CPU performance than GPU performance - yet it still performs well in this real-world GPU-intensive task.

To quote Crazy Dave:
“…16-core M5 Pro should get very close to the RTX 5050 while the 20-core should get very close to the mobile 5060. That's much better than previous generations where it was the 20-core M4 Pro that lined up against the mobile 4050. Obviously we'll have to see for how these new GPUs do in gaming (and other rendering engines), but that's already a substantial improvement relative to Nvidia's offerings from where Apple was before.”

 

[maflynn]

Now, it’s obvious that Nvidia offers better performance and better value if you want performance on a budget

Yeah, but when I see unbriedled enthuseium stating 1700 blender scores are wild and amazing, when that score isn't terribly high - I wanted to put what the M5 can do in context of what nvidia is performing. Again, I'm not diminishing the fact that Apple is able to accomplish this at low power, but for people who are using blender, or needing high performance. Low power consumption isn't necessarily high on the list. It may be for many apple fans but for people needing to make money on their computers, performance is usually at the top of their must have list.

Keep in mind the base M5 chip is for users more focused on CPU performance than GPU performance - yet it still performs well in this real-world GPU-intensive task.

But this thread isn't talking about the CPU, but the GPU, its in the gaming forum, with discussion on gaming performance The M5's gaming performance will be very good, and Apple is moving in the right direction, but comparing the M5 against Nividia, these numbers are not insane or revolutionary. They're good but they're not RTX 50 series good.

 

[crazy dave]

Yeah, but when I see unbriedled enthuseium stating 1700 blender scores are wild and amazing, when that score isn't terribly high - I wanted to put what the M5 can do in context of what nvidia is performing. Again, I'm not diminishing the fact that Apple is able to accomplish this at low power, but for people who are using blender, or needing high performance. Low power consumption isn't necessarily high on the list. It may be for many apple fans but for people needing to make money on their computers, performance is usually at the top of their must have list.


But this thread isn't talking about the CPU, but the GPU, its in the gaming forum, with discussion on gaming performance The M5's gaming performance will be very good, and Apple is moving in the right direction, but comparing the M5 against Nividia, these numbers are not insane or revolutionary. They're good but they're not RTX 50 series good.

It's more that Nvidia doesn't have a base M5 analog. They simply don't make a GPU that size that's meant for the kinds of devices that Apple puts the base M5 chip into - there are no discrete Nvidia GPUs that go into an iPad. Thus we can extrapolate what Apple's Pro and Max GPUs will offer as compared to Nvidia. For the first time Apple's 16-core Pro will be competing with 5050 and 20-core will be competitive with the 5060. Previously you had to get a 20-core M4 Pro to compete with the 4050. The Max GPUs could easily be competitive with the mobile 5080/5090s, maybe even beat them depending on scaling, whereas both M4 Maxes were below the 4080 mobile (the 4070 mobile is apparently not great so even the binned M4 Max had no problem clearing it). Now this is all in Blender where Apple themselves have spent a lot of effort into optimization, so not every piece of software, not even renderers, will be like so. But still that's a big, big improvement compared to the M4 vs 4000-series GPUs.

Thankfully Cyberpunk 2077 exists on macOS nowadays, otherwise we would have very few if any solid games to really stress the GPU out of.

Hmm, 1280x800, high preset, MetalFX set to balanced and ray tracing OFF.
So GPU might not be doing as much then, considering most people in PC world with somewhat modern (last 3 years) hardware would at least play the game in 1080P. Granted, if Cyberpunk 2077 runs on Mac’s native resolution, the performance gain would be so much smaller but still. Also why ray tracing off?
Regardless, I trust no Apple marketing numbers and will see how various benchmarks gauge the M5’s performance.
(And keep playing games on Windows because obviously)

We can see from Blender the uplift is the same, maybe even better, with ray tracing heavy tasks.

 

[OptimusGrime]

Yeah, but when I see unbriedled enthuseium stating 1700 blender scores are wild and amazing, when that score isn't terribly high - I wanted to put what the M5 can do in context of what nvidia is performing. Again, I'm not diminishing the fact that Apple is able to accomplish this at low power, but for people who are using blender, or needing high performance. Low power consumption isn't necessarily high on the list. It may be for many apple fans but for people needing to make money on their computers, performance is usually at the top of their must have list.

I don’t understand this at all. Surely you can see that if their lowest end chip is able to perform well for it’s size, then it isn’t a terribly big stretch to think that their higher end devices will be more than competitive with Nvidia.

Also, and I am not a 3d artist, so take this with a grain of salt, but actually performance is not always at the top of their list. Stability and workflow are just as important. Sure you can’t have terrible performance but it’s not always the most important thing.

 

[leman]

Yeah, but when I see unbriedled enthuseium stating 1700 blender scores are wild and amazing, when that score isn't terribly high - I wanted to put what the M5 can do in context of what nvidia is performing. Again, I'm not diminishing the fact that Apple is able to accomplish this at low power, but for people who are using blender, or needing high performance. Low power consumption isn't necessarily high on the list. It may be for many apple fans but for people needing to make money on their computers, performance is usually at the top of their must have list.


But this thread isn't talking about the CPU, but the GPU, its in the gaming forum, with discussion on gaming performance The M5's gaming performance will be very good, and Apple is moving in the right direction, but comparing the M5 against Nividia, these numbers are not insane or revolutionary. They're good but they're not RTX 50 series good.

I tend to agree, in a way. M5 is supposed to be an everyday versatile platform, and I feel that the GPU performance should be slightly higher to provide true generic utility for all kinds of users. Of course, at the same time we are back to the ages old argument of platform tradeoffs.