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Eh, not really. As I said in an early post it's all about value and each user has to determine that.

I don't get $40 a year of value from Ulysses. I like Scrivener more and will play the upgrade price for Ulysses. Heavy bloggers or writers love Ulysses and will find value. Just because it has value for you doesn't mean it does for me.

Evaluating personal cost-benefit is a ridiculous argument?

Yes, you've repeated my points exactly. Only people who find value in paying for software that they can find similar software cheaper or for free will find value in paying a subscription price.

I DON'T see any value in Ulysses (or Scrivener, or any other word processor) because I already own MS Office, and my preferred office apps (Pages, Keynote and Numbers) are free. And they're good enough. I wouldn't consider paying a subscription for any of them, because I don't rely on them to make a living and they offer nothing over what I have (for me), thus there is no value for me. But I completely understand people who do find value in them—and I understand why the devs are doing it.

The thing is, we're making legitimate/serious arguments. "Devs are just being greedy" and "it doesn't cost that much to make X app" are stupid, childish arguments made by stupid and childish people.
 
I buy subscriptions for software I use daily; I have a feeling I wouldn't use Ulysses on a daily basis so I am skipping it.

Malware Bytes just went to an annual subscription too with version 3.0, so I will hold off on that until I replace this iMac.
 
I'm sorry, but the excuses and whining about this topic (not just this thread, but any thread about this topic) is just childish and absurd. I've been using computers since before the GUI was mainstream... I'm used to paying (steep prices) for software. Somewhere along the way we got used to discounted apps. And then heavily discounted apps. Then free apps. Now we're expected to pay for apps every month, forever.

I absolutely HATE paying for software subscriptions. It's the world we live in, though.

But the idea that you're going to pay next to nothing for a quality app, pay nothing for upgrades, and still expect bug fixes, updates, upgrades, tech support... that's just insane, and I'm quite certain that NOBODY actually believes these arguments they make. If they do, I'm sure that believe only applies to other people, because I know they won't work for free.



If you're a casual user, find another app. Nobody is forcing you to use it. I certainly wouldn't pay a subscription price for something I only casually use.

But this isn't the fault of the developer. They are a company. They have employees to pay. People make the arguments I'm seeing in this thread and it makes me laugh. It's no different than you actually saying with a straight face that you believe you should be able to go into a restaurant and pay for breakfast once, but be able to go back to the restaurant and have breakfast provided for free simply because you ordered the same food and sat in the same seat.

Are you a developer? An owner of a similar tech company? Please give us a breakdown of all your experience that leads to these assumptions.

Yes, that is correct. Just like when you buy a car. You pay, or you don't get to keep driving the car.

And I'm sure the devs will say "sorry, but don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out." See above for reason.

I'm going to guess that moving on won't be very difficult for them.


AgileBits has always offered a standalone license... for Mac as well as Windows—and they still do. This probably won't change for another year or two.



And in this case, you get the value of continuing to use the software. And you get the value of continuing to receive bug fixes. And you get the value of receiving new features. That's the most ridiculous argument I've seen in quite a while.



If this is the case, then you should find a new app—your Mac ships with two free word processors already—and there are tons more. You certainly don't NEED this particular app.


But this isn't the stance we're taking, this company is not offering any option BUT subscription, there is no choice to pay a one off fee. The finance argument was started by them, they started talking about coffees as if we need the economy explained to us, MS Office is still available as a standalone application, but I suppose your argument is that is we don't use the application enough we should just move along.

And yes now the application is 'only' for people that can justify that outlay, great. But don't expect those that have paid for the last model to go out without expressing their displeasure at being shoved off the platform, and this has nothing to do with the realities of development give me a break, who said they would never pay for any update? At least you have a CHOICE to upgrade or not, based on actual features not pretend economies.
 
But this isn't the stance we're taking, this company is not offering any option BUT subscription, there is no choice to pay a one off fee.

Reading the exchange, I get the feeling that your stance and that of some others is that you are willing to pay for software, but you are just not willing to be forced to pay in order to stay current with the software. Putting it another way, if you were prepared to pay a lump sum for a major release of the software annually, you would not have as much of a problem with a subscription model with an option to pay annually (as is the case with Ulysses and I'd guess with a majority of SaaS) - but you're not, so a subscription simply does not work for you.

You might even only use the iOS version of Ulysses, in which case you would in fact be paying more per year with a subscription than you would have by re-buying a new major version each year. The iOS app was, I believe, 25 euros, while new Ulysses users are going to be paying 40 euros a year and existing users 30. A discount might have been available for existing customers, increasing that difference further.

I can't speak for MacGizmo, but I certainly understand these problems. I'm fairly sure Ulysses' developers have also understood that they are putting some of their customers in a position that simply doesn't work for them. Anyone who wasn't willing to pay for a major release every year, for one. Anyone who uses just the iOS side of the software, when - judging by this move - they consider using both apps to be a core part of their offering going forward. Anyone who doesn't actually use the software all that much and will be served by other software.

That still leaves customers who they do serve with this move. I was looking forward to paying another 75 euros next year or, possibly, the year after that for the next hypothetical major releases of both the iOS and macOS apps. Now I would be paying 30 euros instead; or 60 if it would have taken them two years to release the next major version. And actually I'm not even paying that much, because as an existing customer I get 15 months for free and only then start paying. Even if I had to pay the regular annual subscription of 40 euros I'd stay ahead of my original projected cost for using this software for years to come. Assuming it remained relevant to my needs, of course.

If Ulysses' developers were convinced that going for a subscription was their only realistic option - and I'm not claiming it was or wasn't, that's not for me to decide, nor am I willing to make a guess as to how succesfull they will be with it - then they could have done the transition a hell of a lot worse. It wasn't perfect, mind you - they mis-communicated the annual savings, they mis-configured the existing customers' lower-price annual subscription option to go away at the end of this month instead of a month after the free period ends (both of which were fixed in yesterday's minor update) and they could have communicated better when us existing users are expected to start the subscription.

But they certainly showed faith in their offering and their existing customers, giving us plenty of free usage to figure out whether we want to stay or not, as well as acknowledging - via the annual discount - that they value our past and future custom.

New customers naturally won't have this past to reflect on when considering the value of the software; 75 euros a year vs. 40 euros a year. They only see 5 / month or 40 / year and will have to decide if that's worth it to them or not. At least they get two weeks to try the software out to help them make that decision, and another month for 5 euros if they are still undecided. I had to pay 25 euros just to try out the iOS part and hope it fits my needs - I'm not in the habbit of requesting refunds, unless I make an honest mistake (or hypothetically if I was mislead, though that has not yet happened). Deciding to give an app a chance is not a mistake and cause for refund.

So no, I wouldn't make such broad statements as this:

But don't expect those that have paid for the last model to go out without expressing their displeasure at being shoved off the platform

Certainly, some who have paid are unhappy, just not all of us. I see your side of the equation - please consider mine.
 
Scrivener is not only for professionals. It can be used very widely and anyone. Support for publishing is a minor nuance.

I didn't imply the software is not used by anyone or can't be used by anyone other than professionals. I only meant that that seems to be the target market of Scrivener - the novel writers, the scriptwriters, etc. whereas Ulysses immediately entered the prosumer market with support for WordPress and Medium. That's it.

For script writing, for novel writing, I might want to pick up Scrivener, but for daily blog publishing and/or article writing, I might go towards Ulysses, is what the whole idea was.

Apologies for coming out incorrectly. :)
 
Reading the exchange, I get the feeling that your stance and that of some others is that you are willing to pay for software, but you are just not willing to be forced to pay in order to stay current with the software. Putting it another way, if you were prepared to pay a lump sum for a major release of the software annually, you would not have as much of a problem with a subscription model with an option to pay annually (as is the case with Ulysses and I'd guess with a majority of SaaS) - but you're not, so a subscription simply does not work for you.

You might even only use the iOS version of Ulysses, in which case you would in fact be paying more per year with a subscription than you would have by re-buying a new major version each year. The iOS app was, I believe, 25 euros, while new Ulysses users are going to be paying 40 euros a year and existing users 30. A discount might have been available for existing customers, increasing that difference further.

I can't speak for MacGizmo, but I certainly understand these problems. I'm fairly sure Ulysses' developers have also understood that they are putting some of their customers in a position that simply doesn't work for them. Anyone who wasn't willing to pay for a major release every year, for one. Anyone who uses just the iOS side of the software, when - judging by this move - they consider using both apps to be a core part of their offering going forward. Anyone who doesn't actually use the software all that much and will be served by other software.

That still leaves customers who they do serve with this move. I was looking forward to paying another 75 euros next year or, possibly, the year after that for the next hypothetical major releases of both the iOS and macOS apps. Now I would be paying 30 euros instead; or 60 if it would have taken them two years to release the next major version. And actually I'm not even paying that much, because as an existing customer I get 15 months for free and only then start paying. Even if I had to pay the regular annual subscription of 40 euros I'd stay ahead of my original projected cost for using this software for years to come. Assuming it remained relevant to my needs, of course.

If Ulysses' developers were convinced that going for a subscription was their only realistic option - and I'm not claiming it was or wasn't, that's not for me to decide, nor am I willing to make a guess as to how succesfull they will be with it - then they could have done the transition a hell of a lot worse. It wasn't perfect, mind you - they mis-communicated the annual savings, they mis-configured the existing customers' lower-price annual subscription option to go away at the end of this month instead of a month after the free period ends (both of which were fixed in yesterday's minor update) and they could have communicated better when us existing users are expected to start the subscription.

But they certainly showed faith in their offering and their existing customers, giving us plenty of free usage to figure out whether we want to stay or not, as well as acknowledging - via the annual discount - that they value our past and future custom.

New customers naturally won't have this past to reflect on when considering the value of the software; 75 euros a year vs. 40 euros a year. They only see 5 / month or 40 / year and will have to decide if that's worth it to them or not. At least they get two weeks to try the software out to help them make that decision, and another month for 5 euros if they are still undecided. I had to pay 25 euros just to try out the iOS part and hope it fits my needs - I'm not in the habbit of requesting refunds, unless I make an honest mistake (or hypothetically if I was mislead, though that has not yet happened). Deciding to give an app a chance is not a mistake and cause for refund.

So no, I wouldn't make such broad statements as this:



Certainly, some who have paid are unhappy, just not all of us. I see your side of the equation - please consider mine.

My broad sentiments were widening in order to match the galaxy sized ones expressed above ;)

Yes I do see how the model suits some users quite well, and yes they could have made things worse by having no transition arrangement at all. For those that find the new service unsuitable, it gives them more time to find alternatives.
 
Then what is wrong with paying that lump sum annually (60 euros, or 30 if you're an existing customer), instead of a small sum monthly? (5 euros)

This is what I don't quite understand with people suggesting that they would gladly pay for new big versions of the app, say, just once a year, but they would not do it via a subscription method. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm actually going to pay far less for Ulysses with the subscription than I would have otherwise (30 euros for iOS + macOS instead of 75 euros a year, or perhaps 50 euros with some kind of special offer for existing customers).

I can more easily understand the argument of paying once for one version of an app and then sticking with it until it just won't work anymore. For some people that is all they can do - updating every year is just not financially feasible, especially if they would have to keep updating multiple apps. The subscription model is not an improvement for them.
Hmm, I didn't think this was an annual thing? I don't mind buying new versions every few years.
 
Outrages, right? I mean how could those people in the old days use paper and pen to craft masterpieces that they did ...
Hey, if that floats your boat, go for it! But you might be shocked to learn that different people prefer different tools to do their work. Insane, right?

I read an amazing piece the other day about a Soviet dissident poet who carved all her work into bars of soap in prison, then memorized them. Who needs pen and paper!
 
Hmm, I didn't think this was an annual thing? I don't mind buying new versions every few years.

Like many other Software as a Service offerings, Ulysses offers the option to pay the subscription monthly or annually. Month-by-month you would pay 5 euros, but if you choose to pay once a year it's 40 euros (in that older post of mine you quoted I mistakenly mentioned 60 I believe).

Furthermore if you're an existing customer you are offered free usage based on how recently you bought the software - I received 15 months for instance. In addition, while you are on your free usage period (and for I believe a month beyond it) they offer you a 25% discount on the annual subscription price which will last for as long as you keep the subscription going.
 
Hey, if that floats your boat, go for it! But you might be shocked to learn that different people prefer different tools to do their work. Insane, right?

I read an amazing piece the other day about a Soviet dissident poet who carved all her work into bars of soap in prison, then memorized them. Who needs pen and paper!

Precisely my point. You invent the need and then argue that it is so much needed.
 
But the idea that you're going to pay next to nothing for a quality app, pay nothing for upgrades, and still expect bug fixes, updates, upgrades, tech support... that's just insane, and I'm quite certain that NOBODY actually believes these arguments they make. If they do, I'm sure that believe only applies to other people, because I know they won't work for free.

We're not talking about your $4.99 apps here, dude. I paid I think upward of $60 combined for Ulysses for Mac and iOS. I also bought another iOS app they made called Daedalus that was supposed to sync with Ulysses, but when they later discontinued. I paid close to $100 for OmniFocus for Mac and iOS, and I'll pay again when they introduce a big new version (I've done so at least a couple times over the years). I just paid to upgrade ScreenFlow again because I use it a lot. Those guys tend to put up a big version every couple years that's feature-complete, and any updates are strictly of the bug-fix variety. Then another version that has some bigger new features and keeps it up to date with the MacOS.

Unless there's a damned good reason, I'm not going to rent software or open up my wallet forever just so the devs can keep... I don't even know. Ulysses is a pretty mature product at this point, and this just shows that they can't come up with a compelling enough set of features to sell a paid release in the normal way.

There was a really telling part of the Ulysses guy's sob story on Medium where he said that everyone puts out v1.0 of software as a "rough draft" and then puts out tons of patches and updates to complete it. That just sounds sloppy and ill-considered to me. Since when did it become impossible to build a stable and complete piece of software, sell it, and then get to work on the next version?
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Precisely my point. You invent the need and then argue that it is so much needed.
So, you live naked in a cave, I take it? Because your argument could easily apply to literally every piece of human technology past basic food and shelter.
 
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Stock Notes does the job. Plus, I probably don't use Ulysses to its full capabilities with all the markup features available. Instant Notes (when iOS 11 officially releases) + Apple Pencil will do.

Apple Notes is a very powerful piece of software today for 80~90% of users and uses. It is for the remaining 10% that I really just had to get out of Notes.app - things like creation date that does not change and instead a modification date gets added. This is a very important feature for me and my mental timeline. :p It was really annoying to see that dates would get changed the moment a word was added to a note in Apple Notes. Even if it was an error. So, that would kill the "posterity" and memory of the note.

There are many more features that make Bear app with its modest subscription pricing a joy to use, despite my being averse to software subscriptions of this order. I am fine with paying a small monthly/ annual sum for software that costs several hundreds of dollars.
 
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If the stock Notes app can replace Ulysses for you, then you aren't in Ulysses' target market. Trying to write a novel in Notes would be abominable.
 
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If the stock Notes app can replace Ulysses for you, then you aren't in Ulysses' target market. Trying to write a novel in Notes would be abominable.
The core novelist who make their living writing in Ulysses aren't the ones switching away from Ulysses. It's the more casual users or the ones with good alternatives that have been isolated.
 
I switched from Scrivener to Ulysses a year ago. I guess I will eventually return to Scrivener. Good luck to the developer but I wish they gave us the option to choose between subscription and perpetual.
 
I only purchased Ulysses recently for my Mac & iOS devices. I qualify for the free 18 month option so I am happy with that. I'm not sure I'll subscribe after the 18 months, but I'll see how it goes.

The software subscription model is not something I am happy with, especially for iOS apps. I'm always happy to take a punt on an app for a reasonable one-off price, but don't try and lock me in to a subscription!
 
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I don't rent software. I won't be using this tool.
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I only purchased Ulysses recently for my Mac & iOS devices. I qualify for the free 18 month option so I am happy with that. I'm not sure I'll subscribe after the 18 months, but I'll see how it goes.

The software subscription model is not something I am happy with, especially for iOS apps. I'm always happy to take a punt on an app for a reasonable one-off price, but don't try and lock me in to a subscription!

That is rediculous. The gull of converting your perpetual license to 18 months. If I where you I would ask for a full refund instead.
 
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The gull of converting your perpetual license to 18 months.

That might be warranted if they had indeed converted the existing apps to subscription model. Instead they left the old apps as they were (aside from being unavailable to new customers). You can continue using them just as before.

So there was no conversion. Software was bought, and software was delivered.
 
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If the stock Notes app can replace Ulysses for you, then you aren't in Ulysses' target market. Trying to write a novel in Notes would be abominable.

Concur.

I learned today of the existence of a different app called Textnut. Don't know anything else, but from what I do see, it looks pretty good, although it hasn't seen an update in nearly a year, so it's possible it's been abandoned. Alas.
 
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It's entirely possible that Microsoft has you right where they want you. If you prefer Pages, why even have Office?
I had to have MS Office for a few large client projects. I got the perpetual license version. I've finished those projects, but I'll have office for years... just in case I need it again. But I prefer Apple Keynote, Pages and Numbers.
 
The subscription pricing of today is similar to the way pricing used to be when software was sold in boxes at retail stores. Many of the programs I bought in the 80's and 90's didn't have an "upgrade" version available at a lower cost than the full version. The software developer simply sold their latest major release in a box on the shelf and you paid the same price whether you were upgrading the software or buying it for the first time.
You're blatantly lying. Software in the 80s and 90s was sold with Upgrade Pricing. In fact, Developers were quite generous with how old your current version could be to upgrade to the latest version... Have a version from 1986 and want to upgrade to the new version in 1992? Sure!!!

Competitive Upgrades were very common back then, as well. If you use Word, WordPerfect would give you upgrade pricing to move to their product. Some companies still do this, but it was incredibly popular back then; and a useful tactic to competing against market dominant players (i.e. Lotus 1-2-3, dBase, WordPerfect, Borland/Microsoft Developer Tools, etc.).

Upgrade Pricing has been common place throughout the entire software industry since the 80s and possibly even the 70s. It was also common in the shareware market that boomed on the MS-DOS and Windows platforms in those times.

What you're stating is an outright falsity.

Additionally, many startups and entrepreneurs sold their own products, directly...

Sure, with the ability to transmit software over the internet, software companies don't have to pay for retail space on store shelves any longer, so that lowers their cost to an extent; but the cost of living for the developers has certainly gone up from what it was 20 or 30 years ago. There are hosting and bandwidth costs to be factored in, as well, though those costs are probably negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Retail space was never an issue. You could create Floppies and CDs on demand to ship to customers. You could have manuals printed on demand to ship to customers. It was simply not an issue.

The cost of living for developers has gone up, but also the ability to monetize their talents has gone down. The F/OSS movement has basically destroyed the Shareware and Startup market for client software. Programs like H1B has contributed to stagnated wages for the vast majority of developers. In the case that you do come up with a solution that is good, you'd better hope it is extremely complex and domain-specific, or your product will be cloned and given away - basically destroying your business model (or rather... your entire business - even if your prices were very, very reasonable).

Look at the developer tools market, for example, to see an extreme case of how this happens...

So, all-in-all, I understand why the subscription pricing model has to exist. I gladly pay for subscriptions on software that my livelihood depends on because I know I will make many, many times more than the cost of the subscription back in profits in my business. I suspect that most people who depend on Ulysses for their business will gladly pay $40.00 per year in exchange for having it on all their devices and having upgrades included automatically. For people who don't want to pay every month or ever year, they have other options.
Who depends on Ulysses for their business? What business depends on this product? Scrivener is [probably] better than Ulysses, so I don't see how anyone can realistically be "dependent" on this tool for their business. It doesn't do anything the (cheaper) alternatives can't do. It actually does less than the alternatives do. It was always more expensive, less flexible, and less powerful. Ulysses is not the Microsoft Excel or Adobe Photoshop of it's market niche. It never was, so I'm curious as to how some business can be so dependent on it that they'd feel compelled to subscript to it in lieu of just dropping it and buying a cheaper product...

There is no compelling reason to pay for this product in a subscription. There are alternatives that are as good or better than it. More flexible. More powerful... And available as perpetual licenses across more computing platforms... Even cheaper, including before the move to Subscription Model...

Any business can easily just "dump" this product and lose, really, nothing at all.

I'm not seeing your point at all.

And as I've stated in other threads, this becomes an issue when more and more products move to subscriptions.

Every developer tells us it's only a "coffee to go," but didn't the people defending Day One's move to a subscription say the same thing? $5 is only a coffee to go. How about $8? How about $18 when you add in Apple Music? How about $28 when you add in Amazon Prime? How about $35+ when you add in Netflix? $40+, cause we love our Evernote... $50 because Dropbox is the best cloud service EVAR! $60 because if it ain't Adobe, it Ain't good (photography plan)...

Per month, mind you...

You do the math.

The issue isn't the cost of the subscription. When viewed in isolation, as many of you people tend to do, the costs for all of those products seems very reasonable. The issue is that with the huge move to subscriptions by everyone, you end up with a [effectively] monthly bill that keeps rising by chunks as the products you feel your business is "dependent upon" move to subscriptions.

A category to which Ulysses does not, and never has, belonged... It is nothing more than a less powerful tool with a prettier interface when compared to competitors, frankly...
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I blame Microsoft and the MS Office subscriptions for this ghastly software subscription trend.
Microsoft Office is still available as a Perpetual License, both for home and business use.

Find someone else to Blame.

Adobe kept CS6 available for perpetual license purchase until January 2017.

This is not the fault of Microsoft or even Adobe. Their products were so expensive that the average home user wasn't buying them, anyways. Also, those products are ubiquitous and infinitely flexible in application.

They are not the same as the "utility apps" we see moving to subscriptions.
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Yes, you've repeated my points exactly. Only people who find value in paying for software that they can find similar software cheaper or for free will find value in paying a subscription price.

I DON'T see any value in Ulysses (or Scrivener, or any other word processor) because I already own MS Office, and my preferred office apps (Pages, Keynote and Numbers) are free. And they're good enough. I wouldn't consider paying a subscription for any of them, because I don't rely on them to make a living and they offer nothing over what I have (for me), thus there is no value for me. But I completely understand people who do find value in them—and I understand why the devs are doing it.

The thing is, we're making legitimate/serious arguments. "Devs are just being greedy" and "it doesn't cost that much to make X app" are stupid, childish arguments made by stupid and childish people.
Microsoft Word is not a replacement for Scrivener, and Scrivener is superior to Ulysses (in a number of ways) for writing workflow. Scrivener is like the modern equivalent of LaTeX for people who prefer GUI WYSIWYG systems.

No one says "I'm not going to use LaTeX because I already own Word and prefer Pages," because these tools serve different markets.

Calling Scrivener a word processor makes about as much sense as calling Final Draft a word processor, or calling Photoshop a RAW Development Tool. Just because it resembles something else in some ways, doesn't mean it's the technical equivalent of that other thing.

And we're talking about stupid, childish arguments by stupid and childish people...
 
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