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Are you trying to tell me that Apple has done something special to make the Macbook something more then just a laptop? What is it then?

its definitely not the inclusion of a media card reader:D

could it be that it has a built in webcam? ...wait, every other brand can come with a built in web cam too... it is made of that revolutionary material called plastic, but i think everyone else is onboard with that one too, LED screen? nope...Multitouch! wait...thats not available on macbooks either

yeah i cant think of a single thing save the EFI to run OSX that sets it apart and makes it special
 
I suspected so. If you play it safe, (stick with MS for apps on XP) you should be fine, for a while.

Which is rather the point and why most users never have any problems with Windows.

That's correct. However, since most of the 86+ million lines of code are open source, Apple does not have to maintain and/or rewrite all of it.
Apple would never attempt to do all that maintenance in house - this would be insane.

Hang on. Are you saying that Apple let random programmers design OSX variants? Because I don't think that's right. The fact remains that it's substantially bigger than its Windows equivalents.

For this very reason: run, and stumble when running a large variety of processor intensive apps simultaneously. One misstep by either the OS, app, or processor, and the whole system comes crashing down.

This applies to any OS.

Firstly, NT based or not, MS cannot handle the 35 million lines of code in XP, nor the 60 lines of code in Vista with support for multiple platforms by themselves - way too big to do in house.

Well obviously they can since they appear on the overwhelming majority of computers.

Secondly, the 86+ million lines of code in Leopard are for the most part maintained by open source developers, so this is not such a daunting task for Apple.

Not strictly true. Apple have their own framework which they do maintain.

I find it hard to trust a company who's original OS was named Quick and Dirty Operating System.

Good for you. Since, as I pointed out, Windows hasn't used DOS layering since 2001 it's hardly relevant though.

UNIX has been rock solid for over 37 years.

True, but OSX isn't Unix.

During Longhorn's development in 2003-04, the entire thing was scrapped and started over, re-building upon the Windows Server 2003 codebase. Now, MS claims they'll be rewriting the entire OS for Win7 - not at all worthy of confidence.

Perhaps. Time will tell although they did make a good job of XP (eventually) after the horror that was Me.

Since S. Ballmer makes it very clear that priorities are to be focused on competing with Google, Advertising, and indulging in other distractions related to Web apps and the mobile phone and MP3 arenas, I feel OS development will sooner than later be phased out by Microsoft.

Priorities are there because MS already overwhelmingly dominates the OS market. Other revenue streams are being exhausted because there's no room to expand in this one.

With S. Ballmer in charge? I don't believe so.

Maybe but see above.

Viral vigilance is no longer necessary nor desirable in the 21st Century - I'll stay with OS X.

Actually it is. OSX is more secure than Windows because of its build. That doesn't make it immune.

Well fine, if you choose to run mostly MS apps, you ought to be ok, just watch your a**

I will as I suspect the other 95% of all computer users who use Windows and MS apps will.
 
Good for you. Since, as I pointed out, Windows hasn't used DOS layering since 2001 it's hardly relevant though.

If you count from the first public beta, Windows NT was ten years old in 2001, when XP released. The business version of Windows was pure 32-bit for 10 years before the consumer version jumped. (In fact, Windows 64-bit was already out around the time when XP shipped.)

Today, of course, there's no more DOS in Windows than there is OS7 in OSX.


For this very reason: run, and stumble when running a large variety of processor intensive apps simultaneously. One misstep by either the OS, app, or processor, and the whole system comes crashing down.

Actually, a modern OS will not do that - if a "misstep" occurs, the damage will be limited to the minimum impact possible.

In particular, an application error should *never* take the system down - *never*. The OS will first ask the application "why did you do this" (see exception handling) and give the app a chance to fix the mistake. If the app doesn't, the app is killed - not the system.

Even if the OS code makes a mistake, damage control will be employed. If the mistake is within the user's logged in session, then the OS can kill the session. The system stays running, but you need to log back in.

Only if a serious mistake occurs in the kernel (or corruption of kernel data) does "the whole system come crashing down".

Similarly for hardware errors. A disk error doesn't crash the system, unless the disk IO was done by the kernel. Memory and CPU errors are usually very serious, because almost by definition it means that you can't trust what the CPU or memory are doing.

On a primitive OS such as DOS or Mac OS, the lack of memory protection means that an application mistake can easily corrupt kernel memory and crash the system or other applications. That's one of the main reasons that we no longer use those systems. ;)


UNIX has been rock solid for over 37 years.

LOL, this is one of the absurdly hyperbolic claims that you make that completely undermine your argument.

If you think that UNIX has been rock solid for 37 years, why don't you find a Solaris system from 15 years ago and suddenly pull out its power cord?

If the Solaris box is able to reboot, you'll be faced with hours of file system rebuilding, fixing corrupted files, restoring from backups, ....

Any appearance that UNIX is rock-solid is due to:
  1. The simple fact that they'be been working on it for 37 years ;)
  2. Most UNIX systems are servers that sit on the network and run a fixed set of applications - once they're installed and debugged, they'll be reliable.


During Longhorn's development in 2003-04, the entire thing was scrapped and started over, re-building upon the Windows Server 2003 codebase.

Here we go again, another absurd hyperbole.

Read about the Longhorn Reset, and you'll realize that "the entire thing" was not scrapped.

The core kernel and services were reset to Windows Server 2003 SP1 (which, of course had 4 years of development and enhancement over the XP base underneath the old Vista work), and then the Vista features and enhancements were ported over to the new kernel.

If you've ever worked in multi-stream development, you'd realize that it's work to move code between code branches, but it's much easier than scrapping and starting over. By the way, did you know that Windows XP 64-bit Edition is also based on the Win2k3sp1 codebase? Merging branches of a development tree is not that uncommon....

If you had said that "much" was scrapped, you'd have a valid and hard to dispute argument. Saying "the entire thing" is easily shown to be wrong, and damages your position.

Anyway, this thread is degenerating into two sides that aren't going to convince each other of anything.
 
What else would YOU call someone who simply thinks Apple rules the world without any particular logic, reason or thought put behind those statements? Some of us know there is more to the world than one's iMac and we appreciate those systems in addition to Macs. I get tired of hearing so-called 'arguments' that boil down to "Macs Rule! PCs suck!"

I don't hear that kind of argument here even one tenth as much as I see the word "fanboy" trotted out in response. Not only is this the worst sort of cliche, which is to say, a thought and reasoning substitute, it's an ad hominem besides. If you don't agree with what someone is saying, refute the argument, don't attack the speaker. Using derogatory terms to characterize your opponent only serves to make your argument appear weak.
 
Proper:
  • "That is a fanboi argument."
And that's a distinction without a difference. ;)

True. What I really mean is that one should say:

Proper:
  • "That is a fanboi argument, because <refute the argument>."

To me, a "fanboi argument" is one that is either blindly loyal to Apple, or is ignorant of things non-Apple.

For example:

Argument: "Apple invented multi-touch"

Counter: "That is a fanboi argument - multi-touch has been around for 25 years before the Iphone."
 
If an argument can be made without using derogatory terms, then it should be. If the argument can't be made without using derogatory terms, then it probably should not be made at all.
 
Apple should update the Mac mini so they can capture the sub-$1,000 market. :rolleyes:

Quad cores roll for $600 or less nowadays.
What Apple needs to do is release a tower that uses flipping desktop parts. The price should range from $500ish - a lot more
I'd buy a quad core non pro mac anytime.
 
If an argument can be made without using derogatory terms, then it should be. If the argument can't be made without using derogatory terms, then it probably should not be made at all.

Ideally, you're probably right.

On the other hand, there are times when people just aren't listening to each other (much of this thread, for example) and one needs to show one's frustration with the arguments.

In that case, a minor pejorative can add a little emphasis or emotion to the argument.
 
The others are experimenting with clip-on plastic colour options in the hope that what turns on nine year old girls when buying a cell phone, will work with laptops. It's utterly laughable - pathetic.

apple_m_07.jpg
apple_m_08.jpg


macbook-pro-case--2d-17-inch-transparent-purple.gif
macbook-pro-case--2d-17-inch-transparent-red-1.gif


http://www.macbook-case.com/pd.asp?pi=54595&pn=MacBook-Pro-Case--2D-17-inch-Transparent-Red
 
Ideally, you're probably right.

On the other hand, there are times when people just aren't listening to each other (much of this thread, for example) and one needs to show one's frustration with the arguments.

In that case, a minor pejorative can add a little emphasis or emotion to the argument.

Emotion added to an argument is a good thing?
 
Back to topic at hand...

I think the issue most people have with spending a lot of money on computers is they have no idea what they are buying; they walking to a store and it's all the crappy store management or idling salesreps. You walk into an Apple Store, everyone is happy, people want to help instead of just standing there talking to one another ignoring you; plus the place is nice and bright and it's clean. You walk in, you feel happier, you can see what you're getting ahead of time and boy you will spend money a lot faster.
 
Actually, a modern OS will not do that - if a "misstep" occurs, the damage will be limited to the minimum impact possible. In particular, an application error should *never* take the system down - *never*. The OS will first ask the application "why did you do this"

You're right, a modern OS should never, ever do that, which furnishes no excuse for the frequent recurrences of the "blue-screen-of-death" which leaves no alternative other than to reboot. Force quitting has always been an option in OS X, and work is not lost.

If you think that UNIX has been rock solid for 37 years, why don't you find a Solaris system from 15 years ago and suddenly pull out its power cord?

Yes, UNIX has evolved for 37 years. With the development of NeXTSTEP's (OPENSTEP) BSD implementation of Unix, OS X was able to gain pre-emtive multitasking and memory protection.

Here we go again, another absurd hyperbole.

Yes. I realize that much of the error ridden code needed to be scrapped. An MS employee told me that it was more like 80%, exceeding the 60% mark reported by tech mags. They decided to use the Windows Server 2003 code, hence some features were cut. (WinFS) The only complete rewrites left in Vista are the UAC system, the DRM, and Aero interface. What was scary, he said, was how much needed to be abandoned so they could release SOMETHING.
 
It works, it's desirable and there are subject threads all over the net dedicated to it. The same cannot be said for any Lenovo, Sony or Dell.

G


You make it sound like no other operating system can interact with its hardware in the most efficient manner besides OS X.

They're both flowers.

The MacBook's design can trace itself back to the PowerBook 100 just like every laptop. There aren't many changes that you can make with the layout of a keyboard, trackpad, and display. Are you trying to tell me that Apple has done something special to make the Macbook something more then just a laptop? What is it then?
 
I remember when Sony first put a camera into one of their laptops, a friend of mine had one. It was in the lid, the logical place for a camera - but sadly it was on the the back of the lid, behind the screen, facing away from the user!

Well done Sony! Innovators? No.


its definitely not the inclusion of a media card reader:D

could it be that it has a built in webcam? ...wait, every other brand can come with a built in web cam too... it is made of that revolutionary material called plastic, but i think everyone else is onboard with that one too, LED screen? nope...Multitouch! wait...thats not available on macbooks either

yeah i cant think of a single thing save the EFI to run OSX that sets it apart and makes it special
 
a company called macbook-case.com

...but the buyers are those supposedly design-conscious Apple users!


I know someone with a red one (not a 9 year old girl, but a 50-something senior s/w architect). He thinks that the MBP design is boring.

Some people like "minimalist", some don't. Some who liked it when the style was introduced over seven years ago are bored with it now.
 
What does "Age" have to do with anything? Unix may be old, but so what, it is still better than anything M$ has come out with.

As far as age is concerned, how about MVS and VM on IBM mainframes. The last time I checked these operating systems still run America, and they are not new, except for being updated.

yes, UNIX may be 30+ years old, but what does M$ have to offer in an OS? Some crap based on an old version of NT?

I say, kudo's to Apple for picking the best underpinning for Mac OS/X going - UNIX!
 
It's better with a Mac

For years I've watched all my nerd computer friends carry Macs, talk Mac, and look at me with those sad eyes when they realize I still owned a PC. Even when I was making good money, I couldn't seem to scrape enough together to buy a Mac.

I got broke, returned to school, and bought a used iBook from DV warehouse. This has been the best $300 investment ever. I'm still on the learning curve, but the writer that said sales people in the Mac market are nice, smiling, and answer questions, well they were right on the money. Except for the guy at the bookstore on my school campus - for a Mac rep he was a jerk. But everyone else seems to understand that students can't afford much, and the loyalty that is building is good.

When I sit at a library table with a dozen other iBook users, Wow. When I get to painlessly type papers and add in diagrams and pictures, Wow. If more people knew the value of the older Macs, I think the entry level computer buyer would try the Mac and graduate to more costly models.
 
It's better with a Mac

For years I've watched all my nerd computer friends carry Macs, talk Mac, and look at me with those sad eyes when they realize I still owned a PC. Even when I was making good money, I couldn't seem to scrape enough together to buy a Mac.

I got broke, returned to school, and bought a used iBook from DV warehouse. This has been the best $300 investment ever. I'm still on the learning curve, but the forum writer that said sales people in the Mac market are nice, smiling, and answer questions, well they were right on the money. Except for the guy at the bookstore on my school campus - for a Mac rep he was a jerk. But everyone else seems to understand that students can't afford much, and the loyalty that is building is good.

When I sit at a library table with a dozen other iBook users, Wow. When I get to painlessly type papers and add in diagrams and pictures, Wow. If more people knew the value of the older Macs, I think the entry level computer buyer would try the Mac and graduate to more costly models once they got spoiled.
 
Nice contradiction in your post...

What does "Age" have to do with anything? Unix may be old, but so what,...

...what does M$ have to offer in an OS? Some crap based on an old version of NT?

So, it's good that Apple is using an "old" system like UNIX, but bad that Windows is based on the 16 year old NT kernel? Does "old" mean "well tested" for Apple and "decrepit" for Windows?

LOL, that's a fanbois argument if there ever was one.

(How's that for a suitable use of "fanbois", IJ?)

By the way, you realize that there are lots of different systems that are called "UNIX", right? "UNIX" is not what's inside an operating system or how or when it's built. "UNIX" is essentially a specification of what the system looks like to the programmer - the set of APIs.

Saying that the "rock solid" Solaris system is UNIX, and that OSX is based on UNIX - doesn't mean that Solaris and UNIX share any code, and does nothing to imply that OSX is rock solid.
 
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