Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Since it seems this thread has now gone irretrievably OT, I might as well mention that OSX is not "real" Unix, it's based on Free BSD, which in essence is a derivative of Unix, among other things. It is Unix in much the same way that MS-DOS was CP/M. In fact we might remember a few years ago, Apple was challenged in court by The Open Group (the holder the Unix trademark) over Apple's use of the Unix name in their advertising. It passed without much notice last year when The Open Group certified OSX (Leopard/Intel) as meeting their specifications for how a Unix operating system should work. Of some interest, this was the first time that a BSD-based OS had ever been certified by The Open Group.
 
Buyers? Are there any? If so, how many are there? I'm yet to meet one.

I think my point was, as yet Apple have resisted the temptation to add so-called 'design' gimmicks to their computers, preferring instead to rely on real design.

I know a man who paints his nails. And he isn't boring either.:)


...but the buyers are those supposedly design-conscious Apple users!


I know someone with a red one (not a 9 year old girl, but a 50-something senior s/w architect). He thinks that the MBP design is boring.

Some people like "minimalist", some don't. Some who liked it when the style was introduced over seven years ago are bored with it now.
 
I haven't read all this thread, but there are reasons why it might be worth Apple tinkering with the sub-$1000 market. Primarily it's because once people switch and get hooked, they'll buy a whole load more. I started with a rock-bottom basic first gen mini. Now I have an iPod and Macbook Pro, and have convinced at least two other people to buy a Mac. Would probably not have bothered if my first Mac experience was not so easy to obtain.

So while the profit aint so good in the short term, paying attention to the lower end of the market will pay dividends to Apple.
 
I haven't read all this thread, but there are reasons why it might be worth Apple tinkering with the sub-$1000 market. Primarily it's because once people switch and get hooked, they'll buy a whole load more. I started with a rock-bottom basic first gen mini. Now I have an iPod and Macbook Pro, and have convinced at least two other people to buy a Mac. Would probably not have bothered if my first Mac experience was not so easy to obtain.

So while the profit aint so good in the short term, paying attention to the lower end of the market will pay dividends to Apple.

But again: this whole news is a pathetic spin as $1k+ machines are rarely available in retail outside of Apple stores.

People should stop parroting stupid marketing BS - over $1k the majority of sales are corporate/channels/online sales, NOT RETAIL.
 
But again: this whole news is a pathetic spin as $1k+ machines are rarely available in retail outside of Apple stores.

People should stop parroting stupid marketing BS - over $1k the majority of sales are corporate/channels/online sales, NOT RETAIL.

That all sounds reasonable. But it doesn't explain why Apple has very little to offer sub-$1000 - and the arguments strewn out in this thread go along the lines of "Apple can't be bothered - too little money to make". My point is if they really do have a superior product, and people largely choose on price, it might be worth Apple's effort to tempt people with good, cheap(ish) computers.

On the other hand, why does any given company have to strive for world domination and constant growth? Can't they just be happy with the status quo?
 
That all sounds reasonable. But it doesn't explain why Apple has very little to offer sub-$1000 - and the arguments strewn out in this thread go along the lines of "Apple can't be bothered - too little money to make". My point is if they really do have a superior product, and people largely choose on price, it might be worth Apple's effort to tempt people with good, cheap(ish) computers.

People choose on price when there is nothing else to be able to choose on. If you see two computers doing exactly the same thing, no difference that you can see except the tag of the maker, you go by price. If there is a Dell for $699 and a HP for $698 and you can't see what would make the Dell or the HP a better buy, you buy the one that costs $698. That's the problem that the whole PC industry suffers from. Apple makes computers that are different, so that principle doesn't apply to Apple.

There is no reason at all for Apple to go for lower prices. There is a very small market for people who cannot afford a $1000 computer. But that market is very small. Most people buying for $600 could actually afford twice as much and would be willing to pay twice as much if you can show them that they get better value for their money. That is what Apple manages to do. Apple wouldn't gain much market share at all, and they would lose a lot of their profits, if they tried to go into cheaper markets.
 
If Apple itself could get beyond its own backward thinking, it would realize the time is ripe to take on Microsoft directly (given Vista is an abject failure and a bloated piece of crap) and stop producing product lines to milk a small user base when it SHOULD be trying hard to recruit a new larger user base of PC switchers. And guess what? PC users are used to having hardware choices and good GPUs. So while YOU may not give a crap about gaming or 3D, you do no represent the larger computing market. And THAT market is a gold mine for Apple. YOU are the past. General computing is the future. It's time Apple's product line reflected THAT market, not just the old way of thinking.

lol. Thank goodness you aren't running Apple. You'd be running them like Dell. 100 slightly different models with 100 different options for each one and zero profit margin.

What you failed to see, in your myopic view of the world, is that I actually wouldn't mind a modestly priced headless Mac, that is expandable and more powerful than the mini. I stated that.

What you also fail to see, is that while I would like that, I also realize that is not necessarily what the general computer purchaser wants.

What you fail to see, is that your needs do not represent the needs of the general computing populace you mention. They could care less about UNIX/BSD underpinnings, other than it is more reliable for them. What the vast majority of consumers want is a machine that does email and internet and occasionally Office. And iLife, which you seem to think is beneath you.

What you fail to see, in making your arrogant assumptions, is that I have little interest in iLife other than to import iPhone pictures. I mostly use chat, browsing, and email for personal use, like everyone else. Terminal, console, networking tools, omnigraffle and office for work. And occasionally photoshop. But unlike you, I don't geek out over unix. I use it to get my work done.

What you fail to see, is that the people that are interested in running ray tracers or 3D modeling applications will typically be interested in a workstation, not an iMac. And not a $700 pc that they plan on upgrading later on. In other words, a Mac Pro.

What you fail to see, is that while PC users have GPU options, the MAJORITY of desktop sales are lower end PCs that do NOT come with decent gpu. Typically they come with integrated graphics.

What you fail to see, is that today, the majority of purchases today are for LAPTOPS. As in NOT $1000 desktops.

What you fail to see is that going forward, laptops will be what most consumers will buy.

What you fail to see is that Apple is growing it's PC business significantly faster than the overall market, taking share.

What you fail to see is that Apple's current strategy is working very well and the lack of a headless or upgradeable iMac hasn't hurt them at all.

What you fail to see is that Apple, about 10 years ago, decided to not compete in the commodity computer market or actively compete in the general business computing market. They positioned themselves somewhat upmarket, in order to preserve margins, by creating a value-added proposition. By using your so-called cutesy cases to differentiate. Oh, and things like iLife and osx. The fact that some pc geeks like yourself prefer osx's unix base over vista is a happy side effect. But not the primary strategy of Apple. They are happy to have your business. But they are not targeting your demographic as part of their corporate strategy. And frankly, not mine either.

What you fail to see is that Apple did at one time try to be all things to all people, creating many models, including expandable desktops.

What you fail to see is that Steve Jobs and Apple cut that matrix to essentially 3 models, the iMac, Mac tower and PowerBook. And two lines, consumer and professional. Anyone experienced in management would understand this strategy. As profitability increased, their product matrix increased, adding the MacBook, mini, and Air. But a key part of Apple's ongoing management strategy is a simple product matrix with little or no overlap.

What you fail to see is that with Apple's current strategy, they could easily be bigger than Microsoft in 3-5 years. WITHOUT an expandable headless iMac.

What you fail to see is that the majority of people do not game on computers anymore, other than casual games. They use a console. So they are not interested in a $300 gpu upgrade.

What you fail to see, ultimately, I actually understand what you are looking for in a Mac and agree on a personal level with a lot of the reasons. Unlike you, I don't let hate get in the way of rational thinking.

Seems like you fail to see a lot of things.
 
lol. Thank goodness you aren't running Apple. You'd be running them like Dell. 100 slightly different models with 100 different options for each one and zero profit margin.
What, you mean tailoring for the individual instead of trying to squeeze into Apple's model of "take what you get"?

What you fail to see, is that the people that are interested in running ray tracers or 3D modeling applications will typically be interested in a workstation, not an iMac. And not a $700 pc that they plan on upgrading later on. In other words, a Mac Pro.
Ahh, but the $2000 starting price for a MacBook Pro would be much further suited in a PC which could be configured for much less, or a competitive priced alternative, one which Apple does not offer.

What you fail to see, is that while PC users have GPU options, the MAJORITY of desktop sales are lower end PCs that do NOT come with decent gpu. Typically they come with integrated graphics.
Yes, but Apple can't have it both ways. They have the perception of being "upscale" and then offer integrated graphics, not much different from their PC counterparts.

What you fail to see, is that today, the majority of purchases today are for LAPTOPS. As in NOT $1000 desktops.
Actually, the majority of computer sales are desktops, but thats not to say it will be the same in the near future, with analysists expecting laptops to overtake them in 2011. Even then, it will be a long time before laptops ever outnumber desktops, especially in the workplace.

What you fail to see is that going forward, laptops will be what most consumers will buy.
Yes, but that does not make desktops any less important.

What you fail to see is that Apple is growing it's PC business significantly faster than the overall market, taking share.
Very little share. Apple is a small piece in the big computer business.

What you fail to see is that Apple's current strategy is working very well and the lack of a headless or upgradeable iMac hasn't hurt them at all.
I don't think any company settles for "good enough". If Apple wants to grow at a faster rate than now, they will have to make some changes, and a headless/upgradeable iMac may very well be that.

What you fail to see is that Apple did at one time try to be all things to all people, creating many models, including expandable desktops.
Yes, but this is a much different time for Apple. They are experiencing a break-out success and I don't understand how you can think offering more customized offers will do anything but help them.

What you fail to see is that Steve Jobs and Apple cut that matrix to essentially 3 models, the iMac, Mac tower and PowerBook. And two lines, consumer and professional. Anyone experienced in management would understand this strategy. As profitability increased, their product matrix increased, adding the MacBook, mini, and Air. But a key part of Apple's ongoing management strategy is a simple product matrix with little or no overlap.
Very true, but I can't help but think a sub-$100 laptop or a headless iMac would result in much higher sales than a niche market like the MacBook Air.

What you fail to see is that with Apple's current strategy, they could easily be bigger than Microsoft in 3-5 years. WITHOUT an expandable headless iMac.
Uhh... Not quite. Apple's market value is around $109 billion, a far distance from Microsoft's $253 billion.

What you fail to see is that the majority of people do not game on computers anymore, other than casual games. They use a console. So they are not interested in a $300 gpu upgrade.
However, the large majority of "big purchase" computers, which are a lot more profitable, are for gamers... Gaming computers are a very profitable business.
 
People choose on price when there is nothing else to be able to choose on. If you see two computers doing exactly the same thing, no difference that you can see except the tag of the maker, you go by price. If there is a Dell for $699 and a HP for $698 and you can't see what would make the Dell or the HP a better buy, you buy the one that costs $698. That's the problem that the whole PC industry suffers from. Apple makes computers that are different, so that principle doesn't apply to Apple.

There is no reason at all for Apple to go for lower prices. There is a very small market for people who cannot afford a $1000 computer. But that market is very small. Most people buying for $600 could actually afford twice as much and would be willing to pay twice as much if you can show them that they get better value for their money. That is what Apple manages to do. Apple wouldn't gain much market share at all, and they would lose a lot of their profits, if they tried to go into cheaper markets.

I think you have it right. Most if not all of the arguments in favor of Apple entering the low price end of the market and/or the sub-$1,000 tower market are supported by the assumption that Apple doesn't understand how to make money selling computers.
 
What, you mean tailoring for the individual instead of trying to squeeze into Apple's model of "take what you get"?
Tailoring for the individual is not a bad thing - sure it would be great if Apple had more options for customization than they offer, but it does offer options, which increase as you move toward the more expensive pro models. Unfortunately, being steered into buying more expensive pro units will piss off those who want those options for less. The pro units, MacBook and MacPro, however, are not overpriced for what they offer. The premium is justified by the enhanced user experience and integration of OS and hardware. If the consumer models give you the sense of "take what you get," you do have the choice of spending more for more choices.

Ahh, but the $2000 starting price for a MacBook Pro would be much further suited in a PC which could be configured for much less, or a competitive priced alternative, one which Apple does not offer.
True, but many graphic artists, recording studios, animation studios, and media companies do not mind shelling out the extra cash for a better CPU, graphics, storage capacity, etc. The MacPros will out perform MacBookPro's with 3D rendering, FCP, LogicPro, Photoshop, etc. and the increase in productivity in 2 weeks time will often justify the extra cost. These (expensive) workstations will likely be the last PCs they'll need to purchase for the next eight years. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see a mid-range tower for $2,400 - until then, I have no problem shelling out the extra money for the work I do, and there seem to be others who feel the same.

Yes, but Apple can't have it both ways. They have the perception of being "upscale" and then offer integrated graphics, not much different from their PC counterparts.
Yes, and that is how they stay competitive with in the PC world, while offering a superior integrated solution, OS X and pro apps being the major draw here. Integrated graphics are for consumer level laptops only, BTW. I have several clients who have started out with a Macbook, a Mini, and even an iMac, who have since upgraded to pro machines - and not one of them has griped about pricing. Their experience and productivity dramatically contrasts what they have had in the past, and to them, it is well worth it. The perception of upscale may have to do with actually being able to run apps like Motion using a Macbook, and in this respect, even functionality for the Macbook is slightly upscale. Those who are going for upscale will likely upgrade to a pro laptop down the road.


Actually, the majority of computer sales are desktops, but thats not to say it will be the same in the near future, with analysists expecting laptops to overtake them in 2011. Even then, it will be a long time before laptops ever outnumber desktops, especially in the workplace.
Last I heard, laptops outsold desktops in 2007-now: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...year-laptop-sales-eclipse-desktops-in-us.html


Yes, but that does not make desktops any less important.
True


Very little share. Apple is a small piece in the big computer business.
This, too is changing. However, 10% of the PC market would be optimum for Apple, and 10% would be nothing to sneeze at.


I don't think any company settles for "good enough".
MicroSoft.


Yes, but this is a much different time for Apple. They are experiencing a break-out success and I don't understand how you can think offering more customized offers will do anything but help them.
They seem to be growing fast enough.


Very true, but I can't help but think a sub-$100 laptop or a headless iMac would result in much higher sales than a niche market like the MacBook Air.
Ditto


Uhh... Not quite. Apple's market value is around $109 billion, a far distance from Microsoft's $253 billion.

And this is not impressive? At this rate of growth, it could happen.


However, the large majority of "big purchase" computers, which are a lot more profitable, are for gamers... Gaming computers are a very profitable business.
And if Apple decides to join the gaming market, it would do well. Somehow, it seems they see gaming moving further into the console department, which is where I wish Apple TV would move into.

If Apple wants to grow at a faster rate than now, they will have to make some changes, and a headless/upgradeable iMac may very well be that.
Perhaps they are growing at a fast enough rate as it is - regardless of >$1000 machines or not, they have created a market here nonetheless.
 

Attachments

  • salesgrowth.jpg
    salesgrowth.jpg
    31.1 KB · Views: 88
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.