Mac Mini End Of Life?

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There is nothing "soon" about the Mini. :)

I wait for the new Macmini as a driver for my Beamer to present photo slide shows. The Macmini should have a quick WLAN connection (802,11n) to the dislocated hard disk and a VNC connection to a Notebook (Windows).

When I get tired waiting I may choose as an "intermediate" solution my old Thinkpad and buy an 802.11n card. Once I have installed it and learned how to live with it I do not expect a reason to change it any time later.
 
I wait for the new Macmini as a driver for my Beamer to present photo slide shows. The Macmini should have a quick WLAN connection (802,11n) to the dislocated hard disk and a VNC connection to a Notebook (Windows).

When I get tired waiting I may choose as an "intermediate" solution my old Thinkpad and buy an 802.11n card. Once I have installed it and learned how to live with it I do not expect a reason to change it any time later.

Do you show slideshows for a living, or have the need to have it automobile based? It seems that just a notebook would do it.

Whatever you're planning to do, it sounds interesting. :)
 
There is nothing "soon" about the Mini. :)

As I was reading on the Forum, I had a "Eureka" moment. This is it. The Mini will NOT be upgraded. It will be downgraded to one model, the Combo only at $499. Then the new Mac will be unveiled in June. A mid size tower with a Core2Duo, NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS, Superdrive and 2GB RAM. Price $999.

The factory will not be able to produce enough to keep up with the demand.
 
As I was reading on the Forum, I had a "Eureka" moment. This is it. The Mini will NOT be upgraded. It will be downgraded to one model, the Combo only at $499. Then the new Mac will be unveiled in June. A mid size tower with a Core2Duo, NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS, Superdrive and 2GB RAM. Price $999.

The factory will not be able to produce enough to keep up with the demand.

You haven't been following Apple for very long, have you?
 
You haven't been following Apple for very long, have you?
I have been buying Apple stock almost as long as I have owned Apple and Mac computers.

It is amazing the number of Apple Fanboys who keep proclaiming that Apple will never build a mid tower like they are inside Steve's head.

For those of you who do not know it, Steve had stated that, "No, Apple will never build a cell phone". Guess what?
 
I have been buying Apple stock almost as long as I have owned Apple and Mac computers. The stock has made me wealthy, but I usually keep that to myself.

It is amazing the number of Apple Fanboys who keep proclaiming that Apple will never build a mid tower like they are inside Steve's head.

For those of you who do not know it, Steve had stated that, "No, Apple will never build a cell phone". Guess what?

Hey, I'm definitely not saying that I don't want a mid tower. I've been barking up that tree since the departure of the $1499 powermacs... It just seems to be opposite of the direction Apple is going.

I think the reason Apple restated their stance on the "Cell phone" was because it was becoming more of a mobile computer than anything else. Apple saw the opportunity to capitalize on that.

I personally don't need a computer so mobile yet but I'm certain this will evolve into the future of computing.

-Clive
 
It is amazing the number of Apple Fanboys who keep proclaiming that Apple will never build a mid tower like they are inside Steve's head.

Steve Woz, I guess, it the Ultimate Apple Fanboy. And, yes, he is pretty much inside Steve's head.

That's the philosophy when they went from the Apple II to the IIc - everything built in, no slots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul7NkLGtD84

Each time they put slots back in the Macs (LC, IIci, IIsi) no one really used them.

The only "open" Mac has been the top model (II, IIfx, G3, Mac Pro, etc.).
 
Steve Woz, I guess, it the Ultimate Apple Fanboy. And, yes, he is pretty much inside Steve's head.

That's the philosophy when they went from the Apple II to the IIc - everything built in, no slots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul7NkLGtD84

Each time they put slots back in the Macs (LC, IIci, IIsi) no one really used them.

The only "open" Mac has been the top model (II, IIfx, G3, Mac Pro, etc.).
I filled all the slots in my Apple II+ such that I had to put in a more powerful power supply. I also used the slots in my LC. In my two G3 Blue and White towers, I installed SCSI boards, because I just could not live without SCSI drives. I also have a SCSI scanner that is blazing fast.
As far as Apple producing a mid tower, I think the idea from an earlier poster who suggested a Mac Pro "Reduced" at $1400+ is probably the best solution.
 
Apple seems to really be trying to stratify their customer base, which is why the "Pro" model has more features and a significantly higher cost then the "non-Pro" model.

And Apple under Steve Jobs has fought very hard not to be "just another PC maker". When they released the original CRT iMac, all-in-one units were failures in the marketplace. And yet Apple turned it into a strong sales niche for them by doing it better then anyone else did. They took risks (USB? Nothing supports it! No floppy? How do I get my data on and off the machine?) and they made them pay off.

If Apple releases a mini-tower, it has to become the new iMac because sales of the integrated model will drop like a lead brick in a neutron star's gravity well. Nobody with even a basic education on the iMac and the "tMac" will buy the former and every website and Mac magazine is going to be providing that education.

This will force Apple to not only constantly update the ACDs to ensure they are feature-competitive with the competition, it will also force them to be very aggressive on price. The majority of consumers won't care about S-IPS or LED backlighting or such. If the cheaper third-party LCDs "look good", that is what they will buy.

And the "tMac" will likely savage Mac Pro sales, as well, as most folks discover they don't need the "Pro power" and take the cheaper "tMac". So the professional model might see even longer refresh-cycles because the lower sales volume means Apple has to keep shilling the same old stuff longer to earn their RoI. Which may cost it marketshare...
 
Apple seems to really be trying to stratify their customer base, which is why the "Pro" model has more features and a significantly higher cost then the "non-Pro" model.

And Apple under Steve Jobs has fought very hard not to be "just another PC maker". When they released the original CRT iMac, all-in-one units were failures in the marketplace. And yet Apple turned it into a strong sales niche for them by doing it better then anyone else did. They took risks (USB? Nothing supports it! No floppy? How do I get my data on and off the machine?) and they made them pay off.

If Apple releases a mini-tower, it has to become the new iMac because sales of the integrated model will drop like a lead brick in a neutron star's gravity well. Nobody with even a basic education on the iMac and the "tMac" will buy the former and every website and Mac magazine is going to be providing that education.

This will force Apple to not only constantly update the ACDs to ensure they are feature-competitive with the competition, it will also force them to be very aggressive on price. The majority of consumers won't care about S-IPS or LED backlighting or such. If the cheaper third-party LCDs "look good", that is what they will buy.

And the "tMac" will likely savage Mac Pro sales, as well, as most folks discover they don't need the "Pro power" and take the cheaper "tMac". So the professional model might see even longer refresh-cycles because the lower sales volume means Apple has to keep shilling the same old stuff longer to earn their RoI. Which may cost it marketshare...

I agree with what you write here (even though I'd buy a tMac the day it was released), but I have one question: why does Apple treat the mini as a step child rather than an integral item in their product line up? I can't square what you say with how Apple has treated the mini, unless you can shed some more light on this for me.
 
I agree with what you write here (even though I'd buy a tMac the day it was released), but I have one question: why does Apple treat the mini as a step child rather than an integral item in their product line up? I can't square what you say with how Apple has treated the mini, unless you can shed some more light on this for me.

I can't speak for Apple Product Development, but it was said the original Mini was designed as a way for folks to experiment with the Macintosh OS at a cheaper cost. I imagine this was really important when the Mac was still on PowerPC since the only way to run Windows (Visual PC) was not very elegant.

When Apple transitioned to the Intel platform, Windows ran natively. So the need for a "cheap" Mac to allow people to experiment with the OS was reduced. You could buy an iMac or MacBook (Pro) or Mac Pro and run Windows and OS X alongside each other.

For years I considered the Mac Mini to experiment, since I was the only person in my circle of friends who didn't use a Mac on a daily basis. But I had a large investment in Windows software so I was hesitant. The more I used both machines, the more hooked I became, and now I am committed to the Mac and OS X going forward.

When the Mac went Intel, that investment was safe thanks to Boot Camp and Parallels. So I converted to Apple (via a MacBook and iMac). If the Mac didn't have an application I liked or needed, I could still fire up Windows and work. And as I learned the Macintosh and started to find comparable applications, I used the Windows partition less and less.

I am thinking that maybe the primary market - experimenters - is not that prevalent anymore. So by making the Mini better, they just make their other lines (which are higher-margin) less attractive.
 
I am thinking that maybe the primary market - experimenters - is not that prevalent anymore. So by making the Mini better, they just make their other lines (which are higher-margin) less attractive.

Thanks for more of your insight. I agree with your second point here more than the first. I'd be happy if Apple updated the mini as frequently as the MacBook or iMac, albeit a processor generation behind. As far as experimenters, it feels like the ball's just beginning to pick up speed on this front. I hope Apple keeps the mini around so it can continue to ease the way for all the current Windows users who wish to jump ship.
 
...When Apple transitioned to the Intel platform, Windows ran natively. So the need for a "cheap" Mac to allow people to experiment with the OS was reduced. You could buy an iMac or MacBook (Pro) or Mac Pro and run Windows and OS X alongside each other...

...I am thinking that maybe the primary market - experimenters - is not that prevalent anymore. So by making the Mini better, they just make their other lines (which are higher-margin) less attractive.

This all makes good sense, but does not explain why the Mini lives on. If this were the only factor at work, the Mini would've been history before this thread had a chance to be born...it's been quite awhile now, this Intel era, and the under-spec'd mini not only continues to exist but has become even more underspec'd than it used to be. There must be some other logic at work...personally I hope maccompaq's vision is prophetic, but I'm not too optimistic.
 
This all makes good sense, but does not explain why the Mini lives on.

I would not be surprised if it is because new markets have evolved for it to supplement/expand/replace the original "experiment/switcher" one.

Many folks use them as HTPCs - I like the simplicity of the :apple:tv, but the flexibility of a MM with FrontRow is mighty compelling.

Mini's also make fair to middling second computers, I imagine, especially if you have a home network with a central NAS.

Anywhere space is an issue, a Mini and a small (15-17") LCD are a good option.

I'm sure others can add even more.
 
I'm sure others can add even more.

For me, it replaced a Dell computer I invested almost $2,000 in to do video editing - I couldn't get it to work for the life of me.

A stock 1.66 CD Mini with 512 Megs RAM (I used an external FW DVD-RW drive) was able to do it... :eek:

I see at least 1 or 2 people in the Apple store all the time walking out with a Mini. :D

I guess with gas pushing $5 (in the Chicago area), people with computers monitors who need a new computer are reluctant to buy an iMac, and definitely reluctant to buy a new PC with Vista... :eek:
 
Apple seems to really be trying to stratify their customer base, which is why the "Pro" model has more features and a significantly higher cost then the "non-Pro" model.

And Apple under Steve Jobs has fought very hard not to be "just another PC maker". When they released the original CRT iMac, all-in-one units were failures in the marketplace. And yet Apple turned it into a strong sales niche for them by doing it better then anyone else did. They took risks (USB? Nothing supports it! No floppy? How do I get my data on and off the machine?) and they made them pay off.

If Apple releases a mini-tower, it has to become the new iMac because sales of the integrated model will drop like a lead brick in a neutron star's gravity well. Nobody with even a basic education on the iMac and the "tMac" will buy the former and every website and Mac magazine is going to be providing that education.

This will force Apple to not only constantly update the ACDs to ensure they are feature-competitive with the competition, it will also force them to be very aggressive on price. The majority of consumers won't care about S-IPS or LED backlighting or such. If the cheaper third-party LCDs "look good", that is what they will buy.

And the "tMac" will likely savage Mac Pro sales, as well, as most folks discover they don't need the "Pro power" and take the cheaper "tMac". So the professional model might see even longer refresh-cycles because the lower sales volume means Apple has to keep shilling the same old stuff longer to earn their RoI. Which may cost it marketshare...

Whilst I agree with much of this and your later post, there's something to be said for maccompaq comment about being inside steve's head. I read many similar posts explaining how the fullscreen ipod would cannibilise iphone sales and damage apple's chances of achieving 1% market share, without any of the continued revenue stream that exclusive carrier deals brought with it. Nonetheless, the ipod touch was released and priced a flash generation ahead of the iphone so that the features the ipod touch lacked (mainly just the phone) were reflected in its retail price, regardless of the revenue stream the exclusivity with the carriers supplied (which is assumed to be particularly favourable for new contracts, ie switchers from other networks for whom the ipod touch provided a more capacious alternative.

whilst most of your points are spot on, i think its fair to say you overstate the damaging effect on overall mac revenue a tmac would have:

apple's desktop line has not been as successful as laptops in recent years. I'm pretty sure laptops are growing much faster than desktops at the moment (across the whole industry, but particularly with apple cos of the obvious gap in the desktop line).
Of the rivals you mention, only the imacs are believed to sell all that well. I would have said the mbp would suffer as much as the imacs anyways, as lots of ppl replace a midrange tower with a mbp +extra screen setup (up until this last imac update, the mbp was always as good as if not better than a 20-in imac at that time).
MPs may lose some sales, but lately apple has been very competitive on pricing vs dell with these, so they're probably not as profitable as they were pre-intel.
Most xMac'rs are completely unrealistic in their goals considering the prices they throw around ($999-1499). it doesn't have to be expandable, it just has to have discrete gfx. U can bet that if apple makes one, its margins won't be as thin as an equivalent dell the way the MPs are.
imacs will remain popular with students, women, anyone with space concerns or in need of an elegant lifestyle solution. The tmac meanwhile would sell much better than the imac currently does, meaning an increase in sales that would outweigh any loss in margins.
around 1 in 3 ppl would buy an apple display with the tmac, which would work out more expensive than an equivalent imac
tmac owners would upgrade much more often than imac owners do as they could keep the same display. personally, i'm a little resentful about how quickly my imac became obsolete and won't replace it for another year (its 4th) as it's doesn't seem very economical to. when i do i'll get the mbp + screen setup.
i wouldn't sell my tmacs off on ebay either, i'd put them to use in the living room (htpc) or give them to relatives who would otherwise never buy a computer (my mum)

Maybe my circumstances are unique, but apple would get a lot more of my money if the mini cost a lot more, had midrange discrete graphics and a 7200 rpm drive. but for all the fanbois who bash the xmac for potentially cannibilizing other mac sales (none of whom have ever offered the kind of eloquent and well thought-out argument that you have - no disrespect), there seem to be many more people saying they would buy them than not. I don't think it's such a leap to assume that that trend suggests the computer would be more popular outside the apple community than any other model. And there you have it, a new mac mini for the intel era, that costs more, has a greater profit margin and brings in switchers like no mac before it. I hardly think the shareholders would be braying for jobsy's blood.

i could go on and discuss what evidence suggests they won't be bringing out an xmac (24inch imac, return of the single processor mp, shift in focus away from macs at apple) vs the evidence they will (these persistent conflicting rumours about the mini, the loons who tried to profit from the osx86 project, the ongoing success of these mini-related threads), but i've waffled on for too long already. sorry about that.
 
Something I've been wondering about, is how the MB Air fits in. It is obvious that the Air is meant to be 2nd computer for many if not most people.... its the system they travel with, leaving the desktop system behind. But - now many people need the hugely powerful Mac Pro? And does it make sense to use another portable as your "desktop system"?

There are two options, as I see it - one which involves the Mini:

1) An iMac as your desktop. Its got storage, a full keyboard and mouse, and a full monitor.

Ideal solution for someone who travels with an MBA and needs a full desktop system.

2) A Mini-type system that plugs into the MBA, or other laptop (connected figuratively if not physically). You would still use the keyboard and monitor on the laptop (or add secondary ones as is possible now) but the primary file storage is on the Mini-type. All the files and documents (maybe even some apps) are just the ones you need to travel with. The Mini-type holds all the stuff you only need in the office, and collects the files that people send you while travelling. Back to My Mac makes it possible to retrieve office files.

Ideal solution for someone who does not use a computer a lot. You have storage for large files in the office, but you don't need to lug the office around with you. A Mini-type is ideal here because you want something small and discrete, eh?

Just a thought
 
2) A Mini-type system that plugs into the MBA, or other laptop (connected figuratively if not physically). You would still use the keyboard and monitor on the laptop (or add secondary ones as is possible now) but the primary file storage is on the Mini-type. All the files and documents (maybe even some apps) are just the ones you need to travel with. The Mini-type holds all the stuff you only need in the office, and collects the files that people send you while travelling. Back to My Mac makes it possible to retrieve office files.

Ideal solution for someone who does not use a computer a lot. You have storage for large files in the office, but you don't need to lug the office around with you. A Mini-type is ideal here because you want something small and discrete, eh?

Are you thinking along the lines of a wireless "Duo-Dock" set up? I like this idea and was surprised that it didn't catch on when it was first released (Seinfeld had one, after all). I'd like to see Apple polish this idea up again by using wireless technology and linking it to an updated .Mac service, as you suggest. Sounds like a winner to me.
 
The iPhone and iPod Touch also follows the "Pro" and "non-Pro" schema. Like a MacBook Pro and a MacBook, the iPhone and iPod Touch look very similar on the surface and both can do many similar things. However, the extra equipment (GPU, ExpressCard) the MacBook Pro has allows it to do things the iPod Touch cannot. And unless you are in an area with ubiquitous WiFi coverage, some of your functionality is not available where it is (effectively) always available on the iPhone thanks to it using an ubiquitous cellular network.

I agree Apple has a huge gap between the iMac and the Mac Pro in terms of expandability. However, Apple has long had a policy of "no user serviceable parts inside" on the Macintosh line. And when they allowed other vendors, via the clone program, to forgo that restriction, the result was Apple's own hardware line taking a marked and significant hit.

With such a small relative marketshare, Apple wants customers to buy new machines. I effectively bought a 15" MacBook Pro yesterday because I wanted 802.11n, which my Core Duo MacBook didn't have.

Yes, I rationalized dropping $2000 on a new laptop for a whole variety of reasons, but if my MacBook had 802.11n, I'd have kept it and saved $2000. And yes, I know I could add 802.11n to my MacBook for $50, and I have the technical skills to do the work, but then is something went wrong, I have to put the old card back prior to submitting it for AppleCare and I don't know with 100% certainty Apple couldn't determine (and prove) I was messing around inside and voided my warranty.

Now, if it was easy (and allowed) to replace my card, I would have had no reason to buy a new machine. And that is where a "tMac" would hurt Apple. Instead of buying a new machine to get new features, people would just put in a new GPU or CPU or HDD which means lower shipment and revenue growth.



With that problem in mind, Apple can address that by raising prices. A single CPU 2.8GHz Mac Pro costs $1000 more then a 2.8GHz iMac configured the same way (500GB HDD/2GB RAM/nVidia 8800) - $2999 vs. $1999.

If Apple launched the "tMac" at $1999 with a Q9550 (2.83GHz) quad-core desktop chip, 2GB of RAM, 500GB HDD, and a 512MB 8800GS, it would be $1000 cheaper then the Mac Pro, yet still provide more then enough raw profit (thanks to cheaper desktop CPUs, memory, chipsets and systemboards) to cover the fact that folks would be moving to six year replacement cycles instead of three, resulting in slower growth in shipments. Give it two HDD bays vs. the four on the Mac Pro.

That same $1999 will get you a 2.8GHz dual-Core 24" iMac with the same specs, so it allows you to position each family to separate market segments. The "tMac" does much of what the Mac Pro can do, but cheaper. And for the same price, the iMac throws in the monitor, at the expense of raw power and future expandability.
 
With that problem in mind, Apple can address that by raising prices. A single CPU 2.8GHz Mac Pro costs $1000 more then a 2.8GHz iMac configured the same way (500GB HDD/2GB RAM/nVidia 8800) - $2999 vs. $2199.

Not accurate assessment. The CPU costs are different, the motherboards are different, The 8800GS in the iMac is much less than the 8800GT in the MacPro. The list could go on...The point is that these are two very different machines so saying that there is no reason that the MacPro costs more than the iMac is misguided.

Now, whether or not Apple charges too much for the machines is a different matter. I am not saying they are but, that is a general problem and not one specific to a product line.

-mx
 
Not accurate assessment. The CPU costs are different, the motherboards are different, The 8800GS in the iMac is much less than the 8800GT in the MacPro. The list could go on...The point is that these are two very different machines so saying that there is no reason that the MacPro costs more than the iMac is misguided.

I did not say there was no reason. I am well aware of the component cost differentials between a Mac Pro and iMac and have quoted them many a time in these debates as to why the Mac Pro costs so much more then the iMac.

However, it was not relevant to my point, so I didn't repeat myself yet again. :)

I just needed to list both prices so I could compare them to my hypothetical 2.83GHz "tMac". The "tMac" has the cheapest components costs and (likely) the highest margins, since it will not be replaced as often. The iMac has the next highest component cost and a lower margin, but folks will outgrow it quicker then the "tMac" and the inability to upgrade certain core components (CPU+GPU) means that folks will need to replace them sooner, which helps with revenues. And the Mac Pro has the highest component costs and excellent margins to support the fact that it, too, will not be replaced for many years.
 
Ok, I gotcha now...

I personally think it's pretty clear as to why Apple does not release a system like you describe - simplicity. The Apple mantra has always been to keep the product lines simple and easy to understand. If you have a friend who says they want a mac and ask you for a recommendation, you first ask what they will use it for and then you have an easy answer in return. Ask the same question about an HP or a Dell - very different response.

The fact is, the iMac will do anything the average home user wants to do and it will even run Proapps very well. However, if you want a heavy duty machine, the MacPro is reasonable enough that you can easily absorb the cost over the useable life of the system.

This is my take on it. I have used/owned all of the Mac systems and I have never been so happy with their offerings. Yes, I would like to see a few changes (Mac Mini w/ dedicated video and a MBP with a user upgradeable HD) but, I think they have nailed the general product line.

-mx
 
I personally think it's pretty clear as to why Apple does not release a system like you describe - simplicity. The Apple mantra has always been to keep the product lines simple and easy to understand. If you have a friend who says they want a mac and ask you for a recommendation, you first ask what they will use it for and then you have an easy answer in return. Ask the same question about an HP or a Dell - very different response.

OK, what if your friend's answer is: "I want to do some photoshop work, play the occasional Windows game, and also hook up a PS3 for games and blu ray movies."

What's your answer? Mini? No - light on storage and lousy for games. iMac? Nope. Can't hook up an Xbox 360 or PS3 to it in HD. Or maybe he just doesn't like glossy screens. Mac Pro is about it. That's when your friend gasps at the pricetag.

"But I don't need that much power and it's way out of my budget."

And then what if he sucks it up and gets the Mac Pro and an ACD? Later on he finds out that the overpriced ACD can only take one input (no PS3 or 360) and can't handle HDCP so he can't watch blu ray in 1080p.

I bet Dell could configure a PC more powerful than the Mini which would be fine for games and cost a fraction of what the Mac Pro costs. Plus he could get a monitor which supports HDCP and multiple devices.

I respect simplicity, but Apple's product line still has a gaping hole. In the least there's room for a midrange tower without making the product line complicated.
 
If Apple launched the "tMac" at $1999 with a Q9550 (2.83GHz) quad-core desktop chip, 2GB of RAM, 500GB HDD, and a 512MB 8800GS, it would be $1000 cheaper then the Mac Pro, yet still provide more then enough raw profit (thanks to cheaper desktop CPUs, memory, chipsets and systemboards) to cover the fact that folks would be moving to six year replacement cycles instead of three, resulting in slower growth in shipments. Give it two HDD bays vs. the four on the Mac Pro.

What your missing is that it means adding a whole new model which adds design overhead, new component overhead and inventory overhead all of which cut into the overall bottom line.

People forget that what almost bankrupted Apple in the 90s wasn't that they weren't selling a lot of computers, it was that they had to many models for sale. Each model you add cuts in to the overall profit because of design, component and manufacturing costs.

The way they got out of that was by drastically cutting their lineup and dividing it into very clearly defined areas. That funnels/forces people into buying one of those models, sometimes spending more than they'd like, Mac Pro/Macbook Pro and sometimes getting fewer features than they'd like, Macbook/Mac Mini.

I'm not saying that they'll never make a tMac, xMac or Mac Mini with discreet graphics, but I don't see it happening anytime soon because that 'funneling' strategy has led to huge profits for Apple.

In your tMac case, you'd be funneled into buying the low end quad core Mac Pro, which is only $2299, not a huge leap in price and if you can justify $2000 for a desktop then Apple figures you can handle the extra $300.
 
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