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neonart said:
Here is what my machine wants to use, given the option for even more. I'm running things how I normally do. iTunes playing, Safari with multiple windows/multiple tabs. Mail, calculator, ect.

And you're already doing more than was implied by the original poster. You're correct if you think that he's probably underestimating what he'll be doing with it, but that's more than, say, my father uses his iBook for at any single time.

~J
 
Kagetenshi said:
And you're already doing more than was implied by the original poster. You're correct if you think that he's probably underestimating what he'll be doing with it, but that's more than, say, my father uses his iBook for at any single time.

~J

Here is exactly what he stated:

"I really dont want to put a $200 stick of 1gb ram in this thing because I'm not willing to spend that much on the mini. Just wondering if 512mb is enough. I will probably be running itunes/web browser/email/and maybe a video here and there. Nothing too intensive but I hear osx is a ram hog. And I know 256mb is not enough, so I wouldn't consider buying it with just that."

Sounds very similar to what I have running on my machine right now. iTunes, Safari, Mail, (and Calculator). Besides Activity Viewer and Calculator (less than 6MB for that), the rest of the items on that list (posted PDF) are usually always running in OSX!

So deduct 20 and 6 for Activity Viewer and Calculator and your sill at 320MB + that the OS would like to use to run Safari, Mail, and iTunes.

Can you use OSX with 256MB? Yes.

Is it a good idea if you want it to run at it's best? Nope. Especially when the user comes from a fast PC.

Check your Activity Viewer. Check your pageouts.
 
I did check Activity Monitor, look up a bit. Furthermore, keep in mind that just because someone wants to run things doesn't mean that they'll be running them at the same time. For instance, if I'm surfing the web and listening to music, it is the proper behavior for my email client to get paged out, if it's even open. I agree that a power user will probably end up using that all at once and more (I certainly do), but the attitude around here seems to be that 256 isn't even enough for basic web/mail/music, which is absurd.

~J
 
Kagetenshi


thank you for faithfully defending the mac and trying to make non mac users understand that the mac can run on 256. you are right about that. you can do basic computing with 256. and im sure you would agree that if someone wants a more pleasant experience they would do well to upgrade the ram. doing so would increase the GUI performance and make running multiple apps easier.

to whomever is considering buying a mac for the first time and running it with 256 you will have a better experience closing applications when your not using them. this will cut down on the OSX overhead and be less taxing on your hardwar (ram).

256 will be useable if you dont mind worring about what apps are open (please note, this is from my personal experience).
 
ericschmerick said:
. . . in Santa Clara (Valley Fair Mall), CA

Got there at 6:45AM to wait for my mini. There was one other person there already (got there at 6:30), waiting for an ipod shuffle. By 7:15, three others had arrived, all waiting for shuffles.

We queued at the entrance, and the line extended far past the Gap store (for those who know the mall) - maybe a 100-150 total by 9AM when the store opened.

Lots of apple employees wandering around starting around 8am, including a person who described herself as the "general manager". We asked several times about the status of inventory (i.e. "do you have minis?" "how many do you have" "do you have shuffles?", etc). I don't remember specifically if folks asked for confirmation that shuffles were in stock - I asked about minis and they said "yes, they have some".

One very cool thing that happened is that a guy named Brett from Apple stopped by while we were waiting in line who was apparently a lead engineer or engineering manager on the mini project. He said he just wanted to gauge customer reaction. He was carrying a mini, and he popped it open to show us the insides.

He actually disassembled it right in front of us, standing up (i.e. not on a table or anything), with one small phillips screwdriver. Looked like it was < 5 screws total to remove the top HDD assy (disconnect the cables for airport / BT antennas), remove the mobo, and remove the airport/BT module. Interesting, he used NO TOOLS to pop off the cover. He just sort of held his fingers on the side, and lifted up on the back plastic part, and it popped open. I asked him if "putty knives" were really the best way to open it, and he said something like "yes, that probably works about the best the first time", but he noted that once you've opened it once or twice, the clips loossen enough that you can pop the cover without any tool.

He told me that the "sweet spot" in his opinion is the 1.42/80G with 512. He said he was surprised to find that 256MB is quite adequate for performance overall, and he recommended I just try the 256 for a bit before I do anything (a reasonable recommendation, given that my wife is basically going surf the web and do email).

He also mentioned what a great team they had working on the mini - he went to some lengths (particularly after I asked if I could take a pic of him with my cellphone) to make sure he doesn't stand out as getting undue credit when it was a team effort. He seemed very proud of how productive and effective their engineering team was.

Finally, the store opened. I walked up to the counter, and said "I'll take a mini 1.42 and a 512 shuffle", and to my great surprise the clerk told me that THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY SHUFFLES! They did, of course, have minis, so I got what I really came for. But the person who had been there since 6:30, and the others since 7, were LIVID that they couldn't get their shuffles! I left not long after getting my mini, but I suspect a good 50% of the folks in line expected to get shuffles also, and I'm sure there was going to be a lot of negative emotion! I would have been SO disappointed if I had come for a shuffle, asked several times if they had stock (I think they asked) and gotten a vague non-answer, only to find that they didn't have any for sale.

So, I got my mini. Can't wait to open it up.

I took a few pics with my cellphone, but I don't know how to post them.

Take Care,
Eric
Eric, I want to say thank you for mentioning the team. And Yes, I'm very proud of the hundreds of people that made the Mac Mini possible. It was an honor and a privilege working with them.

Thanks,
Brett
 
Yep, as a matter of fact I've mentioned several times that I personally highly recommend 512. I'm personally running 768. I guess I've still got some chips on my shoulder from the "it's too slow to open a folder!" discussions a few pages back, apologies for letting it bleed over :)

Once again, though, I've primarily been advocating the devil. For someone accustomed to using computers fairly comprehensively, 384 should be considered the floor minimum, with 512 the recommended minimum (yes, I know you can't get 384 in a Mini, I'm speaking more generally). To say that even a basic user can't get by (and indeed thrive) on 256 is incorrect, though.

~J
 
GUESS WHAT GUYS!!!

My Mac Mini was scheduled to be shipped on or before 2/15/05 but I just checked the status on it hoping that some miracle would happen and it did! It says it has been shipped and provided me with the FedEx tracking #. Wow that was fast! :)
 
Back after a visit to Apple

looks like I stirred up some good discussion...

"You know wrong. That 32-meg VRAM iBook? I play Halo and UT2k4 on it."
When I say decent frame rates, I mean >75fps average. Now you know the extent of my hatred for choppiness. :D

I went to the mall after I posted my concerns and got an employee to show me around OSX. He was real helpful, showed me all of iLife and we looked at the performance issues I had concerns about. The store model was a 1.42ghz/512mb ram driving a 23" display. I learned a lot of things, here they are. Keep in mind they are just my opinions, a first time mac user, and I only looked at the thing for a few minutes.

1. One of the first things I did was close all apps and use the system monitor to check the RAM usage. It was using about 190mb running nothing. Opening just a few apps easily put it over 256mb. This model had 512mb. I was able to max that out without much trouble by opening several programs. I doubt I will be using all of those at once though. My conclusion: 256mb is unacceptable for this OS, but 512mb will be fine for my intentions with this box.

2. Animations were smooth for the most part. Window minimizations were a bit sluggish but at an acceptable level, especially for a $600 machine. Videos played great, they had some movie trailers on the desktop and also some video clips in iDVD. All played fine. It seems this graphics setup will be just fine. 64mb would have been great, but its not essential when trying to keep costs down.

3. I did notice the "beach ball" a lot, never knew that existed until today. Kind of annoying, but this occured so often only because I asked the employee to show me the computer being completely taxed. He did so by opening 10+ windows, including many iLife apps including garageband and iDVD. This made the box slow down to a near stop, but this is to be expected and not a let down at all. I just wanted to see it struggle. The processing power seems more than adequate.

4. Software: It seems great. Simple, powerful, and intuitive. I haven't used any of it much so I still don't have a good grasp of its benefits/drawbacks. One thing I do know, I have iTunes on my PC. I just don't like it. My main gripe is that if I add a new album to my music folder, iTunes has no idea its there until I add the folder to its library. I know if I had ripped the cd in iTunes it'd be ok but I don't. Sorry, but Winamp 2.xx blows iTunes out of the water as a music player IMO, no contest. Sure, everyone will now proceed to tell me off for this but I don't care. Winamp (2.xx and below only) is quite possibly the best computer program ever written.

So those are my impressions of playing with a mini at the apple store near me. I think I'm sold. I will probably order one here in the next few weeks. I will either get the base $499 or $599 model plus the ram upgrade to 512mb. I haven't decided on the processor yet, but that extra 40gb sure would be nice.

And that's all I've come to say. :rolleyes:
 
damax452 said:
Sorry, but Winamp 2.xx blows iTunes out of the water as a music player IMO, no contest. Sure, everyone will now proceed to tell me off for this but I don't care. Winamp (2.xx and below only) is quite possibly the best computer program ever written.

Well, I'm not about to discourage you from liking Winamp, but would you be willing to give some more details to those of us that aren't in-the-know about what things in Winamp you like more than iTunes for?
 
damax452 said:
looks like I stirred up some good discussion...

"You know wrong. That 32-meg VRAM iBook? I play Halo and UT2k4 on it."
When I say decent frame rates, I mean >75fps average. Now you know the extent of my hatred for choppiness. :D

Er, wow. Ok, that's slightly over double my pegged "decent" rate, and about six times my "playable" rate. Yeah, not going to be much for recent games with those requirements :)

1. One of the first things I did was close all apps and use the system monitor to check the RAM usage. It was using about 190mb running nothing. Opening just a few apps easily put it over 256mb. This model had 512mb. I was able to max that out without much trouble by opening several programs. I doubt I will be using all of those at once though. My conclusion: 256mb is unacceptable for this OS, but 512mb will be fine for my intentions with this box.

How odd. I'm only pushing 175 for system tasks plus Finder and essential user processes. Again, though, for you 512 is the clear choice.

Other than that, glad the experience was primarily positive. Welcome to the family
cyber.gif


</creepy Mac zealot>

~J
 
guru_ck said:
GUESS WHAT GUYS!!!

My Mac Mini was scheduled to be shipped on or before 2/15/05 but I just checked the status on it hoping that some miracle would happen and it did! It says it has been shipped and provided me with the FedEx tracking #. Wow that was fast! :)


I have the same same scheduled ship date. Did you have anything added on to your mini?
 
fossyy said:
As a new mac user how do i check how much memory my powerbook is using with certain apps running,

Your question really is not what this thread is about. However, OS X handles memory much differently than any other previous OS did. Get a free Application called MemoryStick (there are others), download it off Macupdate.com. It will show memory usage in OS X. Good Luck.

Brian
 
For those of you wondering about graphics performance, just remember that VRAM (and GPU clock speed) hardly matters at all for any 2D graphics, including video, DVD playback, window resizing, etc. It's only in 3D graphics (e.g. video games) that additional VRAM will help by loading more textures into memory, etc. This is true on both Windows and Mac computers.

The one caveat is that modern video cards include hardware MPEG-2 decoding so that the CPU can offload DVD decode to the GPU. This is also true on the Mac mini. This will often result in smoother playback because the CPU will run at much lower loads. More advanced cards (like the GeForce 6600) include WMV-HD decode and can do high-def video very smoothly. The 6600 also has video post processing in hardware to run filters without pegging the CPU. It doesn't have to do with VRAM directly, but rather with the advanced hardware features of the cards that also happen to have more VRAM.

When HD-DVD and Blu-Ray appear late this year or next, new video cards with chipsets to do H.264 and VC-1 decode in hardware will definitely impact how smoothly you can playback high def video. Again, not VRAM, but rather GPU features to keep the CPU load down. MPEG-4 AVC HP decode is extremely CPU intensive.
 
Hi guys, to all you people in the UK that are still waiting for their orders to ship there are loads at the Apple Store Regent Street, though they are the stock standard ones, I don't understand how they can have so many there yet they can't deliver to you guys, oh well, good luck with the delivery dates,

Frank
 
notjustjay said:
Weldon, I don't disagree with anything you're saying, although I can't tell from context whether you really meant to say "Mac mini" in your references to the iMac. I'll keep it at face value and assume you really did mean iMac.

I just think that regardless of whether you can get a Dell deal for $350 monitor included, the Mac mini still holds its own as a low-cost (if not low-end) Apple Macintosh computer system, with a superior software bundle, and that trying to compare it with that Dell or any other PC is, well, comparing apples to oranges.

I'm just saying it's pretty shallow to compare the Mini (or iMac, or whatever) to PC's based on price alone, and it's even dubious to compare it based on featuresets, because given the different processor architectures and different operating systems and software, they are fundamentally different machines.

You forgot to add Sales tax and State tax on the Dell, which adds around $75 to your bill.
 
damax452 said:
I have iTunes on my PC. I just don't like it. My main gripe is that if I add a new album to my music folder, iTunes has no idea its there until I add the folder to its library. I know if I had ripped the cd in iTunes it'd be ok but I don't.

If you have the CD already ripped, instead of going to the trouble of filing it in the appropriate place in your library, just (on a Mac at least) drop the folder onto the iTunes icon in the dock. It will import it, adjust the sound levels, and file it for you....
 
Gee said:
If you have the CD already ripped, instead of going to the trouble of filing it in the appropriate place in your library, just (on a Mac at least) drop the folder onto the iTunes icon in the dock. It will import it, adjust the sound levels, and file it for you....


iTunes files a copy of the mp3s so after doing what Gee said to do in the above quote you can go ahead and throw away the copy that you actually dragged to the iTunes icon.
 
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