Mac Mini to replace classic Mac Pro?

[bsbeamer]

Believe the Sonnet has a sticker on it that indicated this to prevent this exact concern, at least I recall seeing one. I’ve not seen the OWC version but it’s basically a full re-brand of the Sonnet AFAIK.

 

[MarkC426]

I had no choice but to order as my 5.1 died...

The new Mac Mini should arrive sometime next week with the same config as your intended unit, sigmadog. I'm adding an eGPU (to run my 5.1's RX580 card - gulp!- which I hope will work without issue), plus an external Thunderbolt 3 box to hold my various hard drives.

Wish me luck!

What are the external TB storage boxes listed as?
Have been searching Amazon but really don’t know what they are classed as.

 

[watakoola]

What are the external TB storage boxes listed as?
Have been searching Amazon but really don’t know what they are classed as.

Mark, this is the unit I purchased as I only wanted DAS (in other words JBOD):
OWC ThunderBay 4 RAID Ready (JBOD) 4-Bay External Storage Enclosure with Dual Thunderbolt 3 Ports

OWC ThunderBay 4-Drive Storage Enclosure with Thunderbolt 3

Now with the unbelievable performance of Thunderbolt 3 with up to 1550MB/s sustained performance, it's the ultimate workhorse external storage solution.

eshop.macsales.com

Except for the fan noise I'm very impressed with it - but I'm sure I could change that fan at some stage.though.
[automerge]1580711066[/automerge]
As you can see by response to MarkC426, I received my Mac mini today and am in the process of setting it up.

Yes, bsbeamer, you were spot on with your comment - the Mercury Helios FX 650 lit up as soon as it was attached to the mini. Damn, that eGPU is quiet! The card’s fans blow hard on start up and occasionally flutter up when I do something graphical. But it is early days, so I haven’t yet pushed the card hard.

Quick observations:

1. 1: The mini runs hot! I’ve been getting many alerts from TG Pro stating sensors and CPU hitting 100c. The top of the mini is more than warm - it’s quite hot. So, I’ll raise it up and look at some cooling solutions.
2. The Mac mini is craaaaaazy fast! (I got the fastest CPU option to hopefully future proof it for a few years.)
3. Whilst the eGPU is far quieter than I expected, the OWC ThunderBay 4 (4-Bay External Storage Enclosure) fan is bloody noisy. Expecting the eGPU to be the noisiest unit I set it as far away from my head as I could (using those silly, short Thunderbolt 3 cables), so might swap the HDD enclosure into the furthest away spot to see if that gives any relief.
4. On boot I can’t get any image on either of my two screens until I turn the eGPU off and back on. Sigh.

Having said that, the mini is whisper-quiet and realistically, the HDD enclosure isn’t that much noisier than my Mac Pro.

 

[watakoola]

Having said that, the mini is whisper-quiet and realistically, the HDD enclosure isn’t that much noisier than my Mac Pro.

Well… that didn’t last long. It's so quiet that it isn't working anymore!

I finally installed my software on the Mac mini, and then moved my User Folder to my 4Gb Western Digital HDD in the Thunderbolt enclosure. I then restarted to check all was working - and it was.

Then, I decided to install Carbon Copy Cleaner and do a prudent backup of my new configuration and settings to a new Samsung SSD I’d also installed into the Thunderbolt enclosure.

CCC threw up a message stating:
“Security settings do not allow this Mac to use an external startup disk.
You can change this by restarting and holding down Command+R to boot in Recovery mode, then choose Startup Security Utility from the Utilities menu.”

So, I did attempted the restart and… the mini wouldn’t boot.

I then read about problems with Mac minis connected to eGPUs attempting to start in Recovery mode. The suggestion is to disconnect any eGPU and direct attach a monitor to the mini.

I’ve got nothing - tried SMC and PRAM rests, tried different keyboard and mice, etc. but still get nothing.

Then I spoke to Apple and will be getting a call from the after sales team tomorrow. It can’t be just swapped as it is a CTO unit, so I’ll see what they have to say, plus I have an in-store appointment with an, er, ‘Genius’ the next day.

In the meantime I’m open to any suggestions…

 

[Fishrrman]

wata wrote:
"So, I did attempted the restart and… the mini wouldn’t boot.
I then read about problems with Mac minis connected to eGPUs attempting to start in Recovery mode. The suggestion is to disconnect any eGPU and direct attach a monitor to the mini.
I’ve got nothing - tried SMC and PRAM rests, tried different keyboard and mice, etc. but still get nothing."

My suggestions:
Remove the eGPU for the moment.
Put your home folder BACK INTO THE BOOT VOLUME -- where it belongs. This is almost certainly messing with the t2 chip configuration.

Now, boot to the recovery partition and try again.

I predict that if you exchange this Mini for another, and then set up Mini #2 just as you are set up now -- that you'll get the same problems all over again. I could be wrong.

 

[bsbeamer]

Yes, bsbeamer, you were spot on with your comment - the Mercury Helios FX 650 lit up as soon as it was attached to the mini. Damn, that eGPU is quiet! The card’s fans blow hard on start up and occasionally flutter up when I do something graphical. But it is early days, so I haven’t yet pushed the card hard.

My Sonnet eGFX 650 OC is near silent with a Sapphire Pulse RX 5700 XT. Even the GPU is very quiet when being pushed. The GPU has a dual bios switch and it is not set to silent mode. Silent mode is the original OEM profile for the GPU from other forum reports.


For the external SATA solutions, I have a Mobius Pro 5C with 5 SATA SSDs that I've been testing for the transition off of MP5,1 for personal workstation. Additional reports in the Mac Pro forum, but it's a very quiet solution. Needs 2.5" > 3.5" adapters for the SSDs, but it's tool-less.

Mobius Pro 5C 5-Bay USB-C External Drive Array

Check out the deal on Mobius Pro 5C 5-Bay USB-C External Drive Array at Oyen Digital

oyendigital.com

Oyen Digital Mobius Pro 5C 5-Bay USB-C External Drive Enclosure (3N5-C-M)

The Mobius Pro 5C 5-Bay storage system is designed to meet the needs of power users with the most demanding storage requirements. The tray-less design provides a simple method for HDD removal and insertion - simply pull the lever to insert or withdraw the HDDs.

www.amazon.com

It's a USB-C 10Gbps device and SATA SSDs will not saturate. The connection is not the bottleneck here. Move to NVMe via PCIe external adapters if you need true TB3 40Gbps speeds.

 

[watakoola]

wata wrote:

My suggestions:
Remove the eGPU for the moment.
Put your home folder BACK INTO THE BOOT VOLUME -- where it belongs. This is almost certainly messing with the t2 chip configuration.

Now, boot to the recovery partition and try again.

Fishrrman, thanks for your suggestion but not sure it would work. I've used this setup on my previous computers with no issues whatsoever: Admin User on the boot SSD drive, plus a Non-admin User on another HDD. Once the computer boots from the internal SSD the user can then select which user folder to log in to.

Regardless of T2, the mini isn't getting to a boot screen to select ANY user. As such, I can't even boot into recovery mode, or attempt your suggestion.

 

[sigmadog]

Fishrrman, thanks for your suggestion but not sure it would work. I've used this setup on my previous computers with no issues whatsoever: Admin User on the boot SSD drive, plus a Non-admin User on another HDD. Once the computer boots from the internal SSD the user can then select which user folder to log in to.

Regardless of T2, the mini isn't getting to a boot screen to select ANY user. As such, I can't even boot into recovery mode, or attempt your suggestion.

thanks for the info, watakoola.

This is sobering news. Makes me re-think my purchase plan.

 

[watakoola]

thanks for the info, watakoola.

This is sobering news. Makes me re-think my purchase plan.

Don't give up yet! I haven't. In the brief time the mini ran I was impressed by it.

It may be the T2 chip, or a faulty machine, or just bad luck, or my own doing...
I need to get it sorted as there are really no other Mac options available to me (or you!) in replacing a Mac Pro.

 

[bsbeamer]

https://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/Compatibility_Graphics_Cards.pdf

 

[watakoola]

View attachment 892255

https://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/Compatibility_Graphics_Cards.pdf

Thanks, bsbeamer. I tried a HDMI cable direct from the mini to a display yesterday - I even disconnected ALL Thunderbolt cables and used a wired keyboard and mouse. I'm purchasing as extra HDMI cable this morning to give it another go even though my existing HDMI cable works fine with my Apple TV.

 

[bsbeamer]

Display resolution and HDMI version occasionally play a factor and are sometimes the culprit. Some monitors (especially TV style) can be changed to dumb down. Change to lowest possible settings occasionally resolves the issue. If you're using a TV, try a traditional computer monitor. There are reports elsewhere this "fixes" the issue.

 

[watakoola]

Display resolution and HDMI version occasionally play a factor and are sometimes the culprit. Some monitors (especially TV style) can be changed to dumb down. Change to lowest possible settings occasionally resolves the issue. If you're using a TV, try a traditional computer monitor. There are reports elsewhere this "fixes" the issue.

I've tried Asus (x2) and Benq monitors with HDMI to HDMI and HDMI to DVI.

Just received a call from Apple After Sales Support to discuss this situation...
they agree it is sensible for me to take it in-store to have someone else also look at it. Apple confirmed if it can't be fixed that I will get a replacement CTO Mac mini manufactured and shipped to me.

 

[dryjoy]

Fishrrman, thanks for your suggestion but not sure it would work. I've used this setup on my previous computers with no issues whatsoever: Admin User on the boot SSD drive, plus a Non-admin User on another HDD. Once the computer boots from the internal SSD the user can then select which user folder to log in to.

Regardless of T2, the mini isn't getting to a boot screen to select ANY user. As such, I can't even boot into recovery mode, or attempt your suggestion.

I’m sorry to hear about the trouble you’re having. My Mac Mini runs fine with external boot enabled and my home folder relocated to an external drive (a basic admin account is set up on the internal SSD), so like you I very much doubt that is the issue. Besides, surely Apple would remove the option to relocate the home folder if this was somehow not permitted.

 

[watakoola]

Thanks, dryjoy. I agree, and… I have good news…

I’m up and running again and have learnt a few things about these Mac minis - especially how finicky they are!

I drove to the computer shop this morning and purchased spare HDMI to DVI, and HDMI to HDMI cables.

Booting from the HDMI to HDMI cable gave me the same non-result, even if I booted, pulled the cable, and reinserted it.

I then grabbed the new HDMI to DVI cable and realised the original cable I’d been using was not HDMI but a “DisplayPort to DVI”. Actually, the DisplayPort component was an adapter added to an existing DVI cable that I’d been using for ages with my RX 580 card in the Mac Pro! The RX 580 card has both HDMI and DisplayPorts sitting next to each other but I (obviously) didn’t pay any attention to the difference!

Having said that, my original mini setup did work. I reckon I should have not been as keen as I was to test the TB3 devices and should instead have started the mini up first using a direct mini to display connection using either a HDMI to DVI, or HDMI to HDMI cable. Lesson learned!

Here’s an example of what that “DisplayPort to DVI” cable looks like:

Amazon Basics DisplayPort to DVI Display Cable, 1920x1080p, 1080@60Hz, Vinyl Cable, Gold-Plated Plugs, 10 Foot, Black

Amazon Basics DisplayPort to DVI Display Cable - 10 Feet

www.amazon.com

I feel like a bit of a goose, but am now back up and running after going into Recovery Mode and changing the External Boot setting to “Allow booting from external media” in the Startup Security Utility setting, so I can use Carbon Copy Cleaner to create a (hopefully) bootable backup SSD.

Then - just to be safe - I reinstalled Catalina.

I now know the ‘knack’ for starting the mini:
Start with the eGPU and HDD enclosure powered.
Watch the screen get a quick blast of some random-looking lines and then go black.
Go to the eGPU.
Pull out the TB3 cable.
Reinsert the TB3 cable.

By the time I sat back down a logIn screen appeared.

Geez, it reminds me of the bad old days of SCSI… sigh.

I’m now doing backups. I was certainly impressed with the speed of the internal SSD backup to my SSD in the enclosure -
Elapsed time: 00:10:07
Data copied: 101.35 GB
Total data in file set: 101.36 GB
Files copied: 884707

I’m currently backing up my User Folder to a separate HDD so, hopefully, all is now running okay.

 

[Krevnik]

I’m up and running again and have learnt a few things about these Mac minis - especially how finicky they are!

Ain’t that the truth. Video in particular is the pain point of the Mini.

By the time I sat back down a logIn screen appeared.

Yeah, and the thing is, this was more reliable in Mojave. With Catalina they’ve been trying to get eGPUs to display a boot screen, but instead broke Polaris (RX 580, etc) users. With 10.15.2, I’ve even started seeing this occasionally with my Vega 56.

And Navi (5700) drivers are pretty much buggy on *any* platform, macOS included.

Its kinda a bad time right now for eGPU users on the Mac, IMO.

 

[sigmadog]

Thanks, dryjoy. I agree, and… I have good news…

I’m up and running again and have learnt a few things about these Mac minis - especially how finicky they are!

I drove to the computer shop this morning and purchased spare HDMI to DVI, and HDMI to HDMI cables.

Booting from the HDMI to HDMI cable gave me the same non-result, even if I booted, pulled the cable, and reinserted it.

I then grabbed the new HDMI to DVI cable and realised the original cable I’d been using was not HDMI but a “DisplayPort to DVI”. Actually, the DisplayPort component was an adapter added to an existing DVI cable that I’d been using for ages with my RX 580 card in the Mac Pro! The RX 580 card has both HDMI and DisplayPorts sitting next to each other but I (obviously) didn’t pay any attention to the difference!

Having said that, my original mini setup did work. I reckon I should have not been as keen as I was to test the TB3 devices and should instead have started the mini up first using a direct mini to display connection using either a HDMI to DVI, or HDMI to HDMI cable. Lesson learned!

Here’s an example of what that “DisplayPort to DVI” cable looks like:

Amazon Basics DisplayPort to DVI Display Cable, 1920x1080p, 1080@60Hz, Vinyl Cable, Gold-Plated Plugs, 10 Foot, Black

Amazon Basics DisplayPort to DVI Display Cable - 10 Feet

www.amazon.com

I feel like a bit of a goose, but am now back up and running after going into Recovery Mode and changing the External Boot setting to “Allow booting from external media” in the Startup Security Utility setting, so I can use Carbon Copy Cleaner to create a (hopefully) bootable backup SSD.

Then - just to be safe - I reinstalled Catalina.

I now know the ‘knack’ for starting the mini:
Start with the eGPU and HDD enclosure powered.
Watch the screen get a quick blast of some random-looking lines and then go black.
Go to the eGPU.
Pull out the TB3 cable.
Reinsert the TB3 cable.

By the time I sat back down a logIn screen appeared.

Geez, it reminds me of the bad old days of SCSI… sigh.

I’m now doing backups. I was certainly impressed with the speed of the internal SSD backup to my SSD in the enclosure -
Elapsed time: 00:10:07
Data copied: 101.35 GB
Total data in file set: 101.36 GB
Files copied: 884707

I’m currently backing up my User Folder to a separate HDD so, hopefully, all is now running okay.

That's a relief! Still not crazy about the "plug --> unplug --> plug" routine. Apple needs to fix this nonsense immediately.

Glad to hear you're up and running!

 

[iAssimilated]

That's a relief! Still not crazy about the "plug --> unplug --> plug" routine. Apple needs to fix this nonsense immediately.

I do not have that issue with my 2018 mini on Mojave (you do not get to see the boot up screen, but it will go to the login screen afterwards without issue). Between losing iTunes and the eGPU issues I am still not sold on upgrading to Catalina. I do agree Apple needs to fix the eGPU issue, since it seems that the eGPU is Apple's answer for upgraded graphics moving forward.

 

[opeter]

I am also on Mojave and don't have any of these problems. I have gotten myself a relatively cheap used Razer Core X eGPU box.

 

[watakoola]

Now that I'm up and running I see the need for a hub as my DAS keyboard uses both USB ports on the mini - one for the keyboard and the other for the DAS’ hub which enables me to plug my Logitech mouse receiver into the DAS keyboard.

I looked at the “CalDigit TS3” but it's bloody expensive and has multiple ports I do not require. All I need is a hub to power legacy portable Hard Drives and other devices such as a (seldom-used) printer.

I do have a “D-Link 4-port USB Hub”, so I could purchase an Apple “USB-C to USB Adapter” and then attach my existing Hub to it (the adapter) using a spare USB to Micro-B 3.1 cable.

Alternatively, I could purchase a “Belkin USB 3.0 4-Port Hub + USB-C Cable” so as not to use two cables.

Any suggestions re the above, or alternatives?

It’s time like this that I miss the Mac Pro – everything I needed was shovelled inside the box, including a PCI card with 4 x USB 3.0 Ports. Sigh.

(Hey, sigmadog, I’m not hijacking your original thread as I reckon you’ll also have this question. Heh. Heh.)

 

[opeter]

I have this for my USB 3.0 needs:

USB 3.0 7-Port Hub with 2 Charging Ports

The USB Port Hub, UH720, makes it easier to access additional ports without switching devices. Its extra 2 USB ports supporting 2.4A outputs are designed for ultra-fast charging.

www.tp-link.com

It works great.
The price was 37 €.

 

[sigmadog]

(Hey, sigmadog, I’m not hijacking your original thread as I reckon you’ll also have this question. Heh. Heh.)

Not at all. I'm seeing the need for a Hub also. I've got two hd enclosures, a scanner, and a couple other occasional USB devices that will need slots as well.

 

[Fishrrman]

OP wrote:
"That's a relief! Still not crazy about the "plug --> unplug --> plug" routine. Apple needs to fix this nonsense immediately."

My observation only:
Apple CAN'T "fix" it.
For two reasons that I can see:
1. They don't know exactly what is causing the problem
or
2. They see the cause as a result of user-determined circumstances that they can't control.

By #2, I mean that the "black screen" problem is often caused by the unique combinations of cables/connection schemes/displays that users utilize. As such, it's impossible for Apple to address this, other than telling everyone that "you must use THIS particular cable with THIS particular display". How's that going to work?

I sense that the "black screen at boot" problem has something to do "deep inside the internal hardware" (630 graphics) and how that hardware interacts with the Mac OS. It's not "directly accessible" through "software fixes", rather being dependent on external connections (as noted above).

As an individual Mini user, one may have to experiment to find a "working combination", if one has been unlucky enough to possess an "equipment combination" that DOESN'T work...

 

[Krevnik]

TBH, Apple waded into relatively new territory by offering EFI-level support for eGPUs in Catalina. Prior to that, the RX 580 worked fine, but without the ability to access anything during boot. But I understand why Apple believes EFI-level support is needed, if their goal is to make the Mac Mini + eGPU a viable option for those who want something in the headless iMac range.

Apple's also used to having Mac-specific firmware on the GPU for boot purposes historically. Boot screen support for eGPUs means using the PC firmware as-is (which I think trickles to the Mac Pro as well?), which is also pretty new for Apple.

I've worked in larger engineering orgs enough that my guess is that it's a mix of playing in boot land where debugging is painful on the best days, and encountering issues that affect different models of hardware more than others (Polaris, Vega, and Navi), and playing the ever-fun engineering game: "move fast, break stuff (that used to work)".

Honestly, Vega eGPU support in Catalina has gotten worse since 10.15.0. The boot screen support for my Vega 56 was fine then, but now it's gotten very flaky without any real change in my setup, TBH. But Apple has been making EFI-level changes for the Mini with pretty much every point release, which isn't great for stability, IMO.

I agree with the general philosophy behind your thinking of #2, but in this case, Apple's been playing specifically in an area that can generate similar looking bugs. If the EFI/OS drivers don't communicate correctly with the GPU, you don't get a signal from the GPU.

 

[ibarnett]

Now that I'm up and running I see the need for a hub as my DAS keyboard uses both USB ports on the mini - one for the keyboard and the other for the DAS’ hub which enables me to plug my Logitech mouse receiver into the DAS keyboard.

I looked at the “CalDigit TS3” but it's bloody expensive and has multiple ports I do not require. All I need is a hub to power legacy portable Hard Drives and other devices such as a (seldom-used) printer.

I do have a “D-Link 4-port USB Hub”, so I could purchase an Apple “USB-C to USB Adapter” and then attach my existing Hub to it (the adapter) using a spare USB to Micro-B 3.1 cable.

Alternatively, I could purchase a “Belkin USB 3.0 4-Port Hub + USB-C Cable” so as not to use two cables.

Any suggestions re the above, or alternatives?

It’s time like this that I miss the Mac Pro – everything I needed was shovelled inside the box, including a PCI card with 4 x USB 3.0 Ports. Sigh.

(Hey, sigmadog, I’m not hijacking your original thread as I reckon you’ll also have this question. Heh. Heh.)

I have the Caldigit TS3, but still not enough USB ports, so I have resurrected my Orico Hub, works well:

USB3.0 Hub with 10 Type-A ports - BC1.2 - 5Gbps - Incl. Data cable & Power adapter - on / off switch - 30W - Black

Never again a type-A port too little by using this Orico USB 3.0 hub with 10 ports. Achieve transfer rates up to 5Gbps!

www.orico.shop