Mac Mini vs Mac Pro?

[Partron22]

Why is Windows not a great alternative?

Windows 10 was written by engineers, with not much user input. That means that lots of valuable features a hidden away in dialogs that don't seem to fit what you want to do.
Took me a couple hours yesterday to find that drive sharing over Ethernet is hidden in a right-click contextual menu that pops up when you select a drive. There's lots of stuff like this. Makes me think spaghetti code was the design paradigm followed during implementation. Why am I still using a Windows 8 utility to back up my stuff?
Once you find the things you need, Windows 10 is great; at least until you realize that there some other setting you need to change. Mac is considerably neater about this stuff, although they've been slipping on their adherence to "Human Interface Guidelines" these last several OS updates.

 

[ixxx69]

I currently use the following
2010 Mac Pro 6 core 3.46GHz, 64GB ram, 1TB SSBUX SSD
Or a
2013 Mac Pro 6 core 3.5GHz, 64GB ram, 1TB ssd

There isn’t much in it between these machines.

Are you saying you don't (and didn't even when new) see any difference in the performance between these computers in photoshop?

Type of work? Size of images? Number of layers, etc.

In what ways do you need a "faster" computer? I.e. what is it that feels sluggish or takes more time than you'd like when using photoshop? If you choose to answer, try to be specific and use specific examples.

CPU-wise, which photoshop is heavily dependent on, the Mini is one of the fastest desktops you can buy - it's great for general photoshop use. The GPU is not "rubbish", it's just not fit for GPU-intensive tasks... if you need that, you can add an eGPU.

 

[pl1984]

Windows 10 was written by engineers, with not much user input. That means that lots of valuable features a hidden away in dialogs that don't seem to fit what you want to do.

Can I see the data which supports this conclusion?

Took me a couple hours yesterday to find that drive sharing over Ethernet is hidden in a right-click contextual menu that pops up when you select a drive.

This is an example of lack of familiarity than any weakness of Windows.

There's lots of stuff like this. Makes me think spaghetti code was the design paradigm followed during implementation. Why am I still using a Windows 8 utility to back up my stuff?

Because that's the way you're doing it. It's certainly not a requirement of Windows (Windows 10 has its own backup).

Once you find the things you need, Windows 10 is great; at least until you realize that there some other setting you need to change. Mac is considerably neater about this stuff, although they've been slipping on their adherence to "Human Interface Guidelines" these last several OS updates.

Mac is no better / worse than Windows, just different. It's apparent you lack the same level of familiarity with Windows that you do macOS and that's leading to your "issues".

 

[russell_314]

I love people who make troll "Apple sucks" accounts on these forms

 

[ixxx69]

Can I see the data which supports this conclusion?


This is an example of lack of familiarity than any weakness of Windows.


Because that's the way you're doing it. It's certainly not a requirement of Windows (Windows 10 has its own backup).


Mac is no better / worse than Windows, just different. It's apparent you lack the same level of familiarity with Windows that you do macOS and that's leading to your "issues".

Apparently you're in one of your "moods" again where you just want to hang here and arbitrarily trash Apple, argue for the sake of arguing, and take the thread completely off topic. The OP said they weren't interested in Windows. And yet here we are now, and you're still talking about Windows.

It's just always the same people over and over again.

 

[pl1984]

Just a little less on the "disgraceful" usage may attract less trolling Windows reaction from these site members.

Sorry but I feel it's disgraceful that Apple offers no headless option in between then Mini and Mac Pro. If you disagree that's your right but that does not mean the individual making it is trolling.

MacRumours is pretty much populated by Mac Users. Does seem a little provocative to tell them that their chosen platform is a disgrace - just a tad insulting to their reasoning powers etc..

IMO it is a disgrace and the OP should not take it as an insult. IMO the OP has a need which requires him to purchase the entry level system or continue using outdated (by five years) technology. I think it is absolutely disgraceful Apple is forcing their users into having to make such decisions. If you disagree that's fine, I am not going to change my opinion nor am I not going to voice it because you don't agree with it.

I believe Windows 10 is a good and stable basis from which to work nowadays and would not in any way denigrate your choice.

Why is it when someone suggests looking into an alternative platform (note I did not say he should specifically look into a Windows system) that person is automatically assumed to be a non Apple user? If you must know I own three Windows systems (desktop, laptop, and Windows server) and fifteen Macintosh systems (ranging from a Macintosh IIci up to a 2013 Mac Pro, including two 2012 Mac Minis). Throw in a couple of Apple IIc's and a IIgs and I think it's quite clear my choice clearly falls on the side of Apple.

However choosing Apple does not blind me to the fact that they don't offer a headless mid-range offering. Something I feel many people on this forum would like to have. It's my opinion there are people who have no option but to buy a Mini in order to obtain a headless desktop system with current technology. The only other option uses technology over five years old and is still sold at the same price it was when it was current. I think that's disgraceful. If that offends you well, I don't know what to tell you.
[doublepost=1552162224][/doublepost]

Apparently you're in one of your "moods" again where you just want to hang here and arbitrarily trash Apple, argue for the sake of arguing, and take the thread completely off topic. The OP said they weren't interested in Windows. And yet here we are now, and you're still talking about Windows.

It's just always the same people over and over again.

The OP did not say they weren't interested in Windows. OP said it wasn't a great option. To which I asked: Why not? I feel that's a reasonable question because maybe the OP may be missing knowledge which I could assist him with. My posts to the OP have been attempts to help him. Unfortunately such assistance is frowned upon unless it involves only Apple solutions (which I feel are weak for the OPs needs).

 

[pierre1610]

I’m really not interested in the windows argument. If I was it would have been in the title. Please kindly stop arguing about it, I’ll be honest I don’t want to be sifting through it.

My photoshop use involves hundreds of layers, normally 10,000px wide is a minimum these days. Usually a square format too. Often 35-30,000px if it’s a stitch. Biggest file I ever got to was 30GB. Common tasks which are processor intensive are usually single core tasks such as saving or converting to 16bit. Both of which are extremely time consuming and see no difference on a 5,1 or 6,1 Mac Pro

 

[pl1984]

I’m really not interested in the windows argument. If I was it would have been in the title. Please kindly stop arguing about it, I’ll be honest I don’t want to be sifting through it.

My photoshop use involves hundreds of layers, normally 10,000px wide is a minimum these days. Usually a square format too. Often 35-30,000px if it’s a stitch. Biggest file I ever got to was 30GB. Common tasks which are processor intensive are usually single core tasks such as saving or converting to 16bit. Both of which are extremely time consuming and see no difference on a 5,1 or 6,1 Mac Pro

If you're committed to the Mac platform then your only headless option is the Mini.

 

[F-Train]

Photoshop doesn’t really make use of GPU but the internal graphics on the Mini seems to be pretty rubbish. Will it be good enough?

My photoshop use involves hundreds of layers, normally 10,000px wide is a minimum these days. Usually a square format too. Often 35-30,000px if it’s a stitch. Biggest file I ever got to was 30GB.

This is why I suggested, in post #3, that you consult with someone who has hands-on experience with Photoshop files this large. You're not yet in Ed Burtynsky territory, but you're get there. Indeed, I'd be inclined to talk with the lab that Burtynsky created, Toronto Image Works (https://www.torontoimageworks.com), or similar elsewhere.

Here is what Burtynsky says about Toronto Image Works, and its role in his own work, on his personal web site. TIW may be able to give you some good advice, including on whether you should consider an external graphics card: https://www.edwardburtynsky.com/tiw

 

[StellarVixen]

If what the rumors are saying is true, I'd wait for the Mac Pro.


I just hope Apple will not screw this one up.


I was so ready to buy Mac Mini...BUT THEN...I hit the brake in the last moments.



I waited for so long, I will wait a little bit longer... I hope I will not regret not getting the Mac Mini.

 

[pl1984]

If what the rumors are saying is true, I'd wait for the Mac Pro.

I just hope Apple will not screw this one up.

I was so ready to buy Mac Mini...BUT THEN...I hit the brake in the last moments.

I waited for so long, I will wait a little bit longer... I hope I will not regret not getting the Mac Mini.

OP said needs a new system and can no longer wait. Since he's posting in the Mini forum I assume he does not want an iMac / laptop. Since Apple doesn't offer anything other than the Mini that is his only option. There's really nothing to decide.

 

[StellarVixen]

OP said needs a new system and can no longer wait. Since he's posting in the Mini forum I assume he does not want an iMac / laptop. Since Apple doesn't offer anything other than the Mini that is his only option. There's really nothing to decide.

OK, then Mini it is.

 

[Partron22]

I've been coding since the mid 70's. I recognize spaghetti when I see it or use it.
MacOS has rough spots, Windows 10 has rough spots. Even Linux...
Those problems can drive people doing different things to different OS's.
Currently I think Macs's price/value ratio is lower than it has been. The 4 year hiatus on Mini, and 5? on Pro is ugly.
The threat of switching everything to phone style processors next year is worrisome. So I run Mac, Win and Linux.
The Mini vs pro vs ??? question should be much clearer next year, and I can afford to wait.

 

[pl1984]

I've been coding since the mid 70's. I recognize spaghetti when I see it or use it.

You have access to the source code?

 

[StellarVixen]

I've been coding since the mid 70's. I recognize spaghetti when I see it or use it.
MacOS has rough spots, Windows 10 has rough spots. Even Linux...
Those problems can drive people doing different things to different OS's.
Currently I think Macs's price/value ratio is lower than it has been. The 4 year hiatus on Mini, and 5? on Pro is ugly.
The threat of switching everything to phone style processors next year is worrisome. So I run Mac, Win and Linux.
The Mini vs pro vs ??? question should be much clearer next year, and I can afford to wait.

You have more years of experience in programming than I have years of life, let alone programming. Therefore, you know that entropy in the code can only increase or remain the same, it does not decrease. Since Mac OS, Windows and other are several decades old, of course that some of the parts are gonna be mess.

 

[ixxx69]

My photoshop use involves hundreds of layers, normally 10,000px wide is a minimum these days. Usually a square format too. Often 35-30,000px if it’s a stitch. Biggest file I ever got to was 30GB. Common tasks which are processor intensive are usually single core tasks such as saving or converting to 16bit. Both of which are extremely time consuming and see no difference on a 5,1 or 6,1 Mac Pro

I'm a little surprised you don't see any difference, but that could be due to other factors of your setup.

You may need to look at "workflow" solutions or the bottlenecks with your existing hardware before considering a computer upgrade.

There are hundreds of articles on optimizing various photoshop workflows to get the most out of your hardware.

And then there's all the particulars of your hardware setup - are you processing all this on the internal SSD, or an HDD, etc.?

Bottom line is that from a hardware standpoint, the mini should be at least as fast if not faster than what you already have. But until you really dive into the details, it's hard to say with any certainty that you'll see faster performance in those specific tasks.

If you need to purchase a new Mac because you need it, I think the 2018 mini is a great way to go. The 2013 MP is still a great machine too, but I'd want the TB3 ports and faster CPU on the 2018 mini.

Best of luck!

 

[Partron22]

several decades old, of course that some of the parts are gonna be mess.

Entropy is a pain. It's essentially why Apple had to abandon System 1-9, and do a complete rewrite for OSX. Things are getting creaky again, but nowhere near the level I see in Windows 10. Not sure what kernel Windows grows from, but it feels pretty twigged up.

 

[pierre1610]

I'm a little surprised you don't see any difference, but that could be due to other factors of your setup.

You may need to look at "workflow" solutions or the bottlenecks with your existing hardware before considering a computer upgrade.

There are hundreds of articles on optimizing various photoshop workflows to get the most out of your hardware.

And then there's all the particulars of your hardware setup - are you processing all this on the internal SSD, or an HDD, etc.?

Bottom line is that from a hardware standpoint, the mini should be at least as fast if not faster than what you already have. But until you really dive into the details, it's hard to say with any certainty that you'll see faster performance in those specific tasks.

If you need to purchase a new Mac because you need it, I think the 2018 mini is a great way to go. The 2013 MP is still a great machine too, but I'd want the TB3 ports and faster CPU on the 2018 mini.

Best of luck!

I have blade SSDs on both Mac Pro systems with a read/write around 1000MBs. That storage is both scratch and storage to save onto. Both have 64GB ram. Both have 6 core and very similar clock speed. I think the 6,1 is slightly faster due to the memory speed and the turbo on the cpu. It certainly feels slightly less laggy on cloning. On a script that takes 5mins to perform on a file there wasn’t even 5 secs in it on both machines though.

 

[StellarVixen]

Entropy is a pain. It's essentially why Apple had to abandon System 1-9, and do a complete rewrite for OSX. Things are getting creaky again, but nowhere near the level I see in Windows 10. Not sure what kernel Windows grows from, but it feels pretty twigged up.

But OS X was built on the foundation of NeXTSTEP. How much of it was original NeXTSTEP code, and how much was addition, to make it look more like Mac OS? I think most of it was just straight from NeXTSTEP.


I am sorry, I do not know details of this...but I am curious to know.

 

[pl1984]

Entropy is a pain. It's essentially why Apple had to abandon System 1-9, and do a complete rewrite for OSX. Things are getting creaky again, but nowhere near the level I see in Windows 10. Not sure what kernel Windows grows from, but it feels pretty twigged up.

Specifically what do you see as creaky with Windows?

 

[Dr. Stealth]

You have access to the source code?

Microsoft confirms some Windows 10 source code has leaked

It's not the first time...

Read Here

 

[Partron22]

I’m really not interested in the windows argument.

Sorry bout that. I'd forgotten how easy these things blow up.

 

[pl1984]

Microsoft confirms some Windows 10 source code has leaked

It's not the first time...

Read Here

No it is not. Having said that I'd be willing to be Patron22 hasn't seen any of the Windows source code and therefore his opinion of spaghetti code is worthless.

 

[Partron22]

Underlying code structure reveals itself in interface function. Have you not noticed the massive difference in error propagation between Object based and straight coding? Try writing some self modifying code, AppleScript supports it, and see how running and interacting with it feels. Recursive calls are fun too, but you can tell when they're being used. Same thing with spaghetti. Your belief here has no correlation to reality. Coding style almost always become apparent in the user facing interface.
I'm done on this.

pierre1610 I think all three of your choices will come out pretty similar. There's nothing that will hit it of the ballpark for you. 20GB files are still big no matter what you use.
It's too bad you can't wait a year and see if the new Pro, with whatever as a processor, changes the playing field.
I'm leaning towards not, the industry is maturing, but I've been wrong before.
Maybe you'll get lucky.

 

[pl1984]

Underlying code structure reveals itself in interface function. Have you not noticed the massive difference in error propagation between Object based and straight coding? Try writing some self modifying code, AppleScript supports it, and see how running and interacting with it feels. Recursive calls are fun too, but you can tell when they're being used. Same thing with spaghetti. Your belief here has no correlation to reality. Coding style almost always become apparent in the user facing interface.

This is a bunch of gobbledygook. As someone who has a degree in programming and is a programmer myself (but not professionally but have been doing it as a hobby sine the 80's) I can easily spot when someone is trying to pull one over on me. If you haven't seen the source code, which it appears you have not, then please stop making claims which require you to have to have done so.