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Mac OS X 10.4 Info?
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Re: Re: 10.4 this year? Look at the pattern
It's an upgrade because you can only use it if you have a previous version. And you are right, that is necessarily the case and so Apple need not enforce it artificially.
By what scheme can you imagine Apple offering TWO prices, a first-purchase full price, and an upgrade discount? The imaginary, higher "full" price of Mac OS is never seen: it's bundled with every Mac.
I think what you mean is that you wish the ONE price (upgrading your Mac) were lower. Fair enough--it's always been worth it to me, but when it's not, I'll skip that upgrade.
It's an upgrade because you can only use it if you have a previous version. And you are right, that is necessarily the case and so Apple need not enforce it artificially.
By what scheme can you imagine Apple offering TWO prices, a first-purchase full price, and an upgrade discount? The imaginary, higher "full" price of Mac OS is never seen: it's bundled with every Mac.
I think what you mean is that you wish the ONE price (upgrading your Mac) were lower. Fair enough--it's always been worth it to me, but when it's not, I'll skip that upgrade.
Re: Re: Hope not ...
That and Tigger isn't likely to maul you to death with one swipe of a paw.
How about we split the difference?
My vote is for Sabertooth. (a.k.a Sabertooth Tiger.) It a edgy word. IMHO it conjures up hard forceful images. Its a strong, no nonsense word. Perfect for OS X.
That and Tigger isn't likely to maul you to death with one swipe of a paw.
How about we split the difference?
My vote is for Sabertooth. (a.k.a Sabertooth Tiger.) It a edgy word. IMHO it conjures up hard forceful images. Its a strong, no nonsense word. Perfect for OS X.
Updates, Colors, Lord of the Rings Characters and Wine don't have anything to do with big aggressive cats
...except when Apple uses them as internal code names.
Re: Re: 10.4 this year? Look at the pattern
...and the 10.2 Jaguar release date was also the same release date of Windows 95 back in the day.
...and the 10.2 Jaguar release date was also the same release date of Windows 95 back in the day.
I used every version up to System 6 (and now X). Didn't they at one stage have system 3 with finder 4 or something? Then they brought it in line? I don't like skipping numbers myself (Did they release MacOS X before MacOS 9?)
Hmmm. NT meant "New Technology". Maybe this will be RNT ("Really New Technology").
Nah, really, when you buy a new Mac, about $400 of it is for Mac OS X. Then when you pay $129, it's to upgrade it. I DO think upgrading from the 10.2 to 10.3 should be cheaper than from OS 9 etc. They should make a special deal for people who update with every release.
Everyone says Apple makes a lot on their hardware, but the cost of OS development means they don't profit as much as it appears. There is certainly a $ value for the OS that could be added.
It'll never end. Every new OS is going to bring the inevitable whine from users who feel as though Apple is forcing their hand. The reality is Apples OS is their crown jewel and being much smaller than the X86 Market we need to evolve rapidly. When PC people were asking "What's 802.11?" Mac users were using it.
$129 is not a lot of money for an os the caliber of OSX. XP Professional cost what $180 as an upgrade? Apple has even created the family license with 5 seats for $40 freakin dollars a seat!
Truth be told people want to see software priced as close to zero as possible while apple wants it as far away. That's just business.
As for 10.4 I expect large changes. Apple probably staggers development teams so I'd venture to say that the team that programmed Jaguar at large is working on 10.4 while the Panther team will eventually move on to 10.5 work. This way Apple has work on their next two OS version happening concurrently. So when 10.4 comes out it will NOT be just a little over a year from Panther but in reality it will have been worked on for over 2 years by one development team. That is why Apple can add so many features at one time.
As for Longhorn there is plenty of information about Longhorn available. Nothing is really going to be a suprise. Microsoft generally has to be fairly open about what they're going to do because the developer market is so much larger. They cannot afford to be as secretive as Apple. I expect 10.5 or 10.6 to battle Longhorn and as always Apple will be 2 steps ahead.
$129 is not a lot of money for an os the caliber of OSX. XP Professional cost what $180 as an upgrade? Apple has even created the family license with 5 seats for $40 freakin dollars a seat!
Truth be told people want to see software priced as close to zero as possible while apple wants it as far away. That's just business.
As for 10.4 I expect large changes. Apple probably staggers development teams so I'd venture to say that the team that programmed Jaguar at large is working on 10.4 while the Panther team will eventually move on to 10.5 work. This way Apple has work on their next two OS version happening concurrently. So when 10.4 comes out it will NOT be just a little over a year from Panther but in reality it will have been worked on for over 2 years by one development team. That is why Apple can add so many features at one time.
As for Longhorn there is plenty of information about Longhorn available. Nothing is really going to be a suprise. Microsoft generally has to be fairly open about what they're going to do because the developer market is so much larger. They cannot afford to be as secretive as Apple. I expect 10.5 or 10.6 to battle Longhorn and as always Apple will be 2 steps ahead.
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
And Apple zealots are Apple zealots so it works out in the end.
Hmm I'm a Microsoft Zealot for saying it's still Microsoft? I know a lot of PC people who would agree with me on the fact that even though Microsoft employees some of the most talented programers on earth they are almost always forced by some weird design plan to botch together something that is not only buggy but also has an annoying interface.
Re: Re: Re: 10.4 this year? Look at the pattern
No, it's not just an upgrade, because it can install a full version of OSX on a partition that previously had no OS installed in it.
Apple also makes OSX upgrade CD's (which typically ship with new Macs just after a new version of OSX is released) which cannot do the above.
No, it's not just an upgrade, because it can install a full version of OSX on a partition that previously had no OS installed in it.
Apple also makes OSX upgrade CD's (which typically ship with new Macs just after a new version of OSX is released) which cannot do the above.
XP (NT with bells & whistles) is good. I can't stand it, but it is really good, especially taking into consideration the vast amount of hardware it has to run on. And XP was a quick hack compared to Longhorn.
May be off topic, but every new release of OS X looks more like Beta. Interface glitches (see file. For me it looks inconsistent. What about you?) of Panther and its Megabuggy Finder. My preferred bug is a drag-multiple-items-on-a-desktop-then-have-finder-relaunched bug. I often save many articles to later read them and move to trash or to pages folder. And guess what? I'm irritated by Finder not allowing me to do this. Many more bugs there are...
P.S. I admit the speed improvements. QE is sweet. But some things get worse.
Attachments
I think that goes without saying for any market. Look at the Walmart, Dell, P2P sharing, v1 Napster. People want something for nothing and the reality is this won't happen. And typically when it does you get cheap *** stuff like Dell's cheap'o puters.
Well put. I think that's Microsoft's biggest Achilles' Heel. It's next to impossible for them to keep secrets without ticking off the entire development and IT community. That and first and foremost Microsoft is a marketing company. Software is secondary. They have to scream from the highest peaks what "wonderful" new features Windows XYZ has well before it comes out to try and create a marketing hype and get people to by into *monster truck voice* NEWER! BIGGER! FASTER! MORE RELIABLE! ULTRA SECURE! BUY IT NOW NOW NOW!!
Apple does the same but in a much narrow timeframe. That and you have such wonderful BS propaganda pendants such as news.com and zdnet.com who make front page news items for such wonderful things as "Microsoft to release Longhorn system requirements at WINHEC." WHO CARES?!?! Its 2 years away from being released! Its a marketing ploy to keep people's attention on Longhorn and try and keep their eyes from drifting over to those "other" OS's. Again. Microsoft: A marketing company that just happens to make software too.
Originally posted by wdlove
So if the rumor of skipping a number is true and there is a 2 year development cycle. Then the Jaguar team could be working on 10.5. The Panther team could be working on 10.6. That way it would be well in advance of Longhorn.
OK. Let's see if we can nail this down. People keep talking about development teams. Does anyone know for a fact that there are multiple development teams for the various OS X versions. So is/was there truly a sep Jaguar team and Panther team? To me it that sounds convoluted. You would think that the people who developed Panther would know their code better then anyone else and who would be the perfect candidates for making OS 10.4. Why would you put anyone other then the experts on that project? Anyone?!?!
With other developers, I could quite easily see different teams for different software. In a games development house, for example, the people making one game will be a different team to the ones making a completely different, INDEPENDENT game. Likewise the IE team doesn't have to be the same as the Office team.
However, 10.4 is not independent of 10.3, as is 10.3 and 10.2. They are not separate games. Although Panther has some fundamental core differences with Jaguar, it is still an evolution and, at one point, was split off from Jaguar. I'm sure parts of the team split off temporarily to keep the Jaguar minor updates coming, as Panther was being developed but would have had to have been kept 'in the loop.'
At the present time we can only widly speculate what goodies are in store for us in 10.4...
However, 10.4 is not independent of 10.3, as is 10.3 and 10.2. They are not separate games. Although Panther has some fundamental core differences with Jaguar, it is still an evolution and, at one point, was split off from Jaguar. I'm sure parts of the team split off temporarily to keep the Jaguar minor updates coming, as Panther was being developed but would have had to have been kept 'in the loop.'
At the present time we can only widly speculate what goodies are in store for us in 10.4...
From what I understand of this thread, it sounds like this is more copying BeOS's BFS than Windows' new WinFS. Am I correct in understanding that WinFS has an actual database running on top of it? BFS did too, before DR2, at which point they removed that and replaced it with an indexed, queryable metadata system which was much faster. It's still probably the biggest BeOS feature I miss while working in MacOS X.
--Cless
--Cless
Re: Re: Re: 10.4 this year? Look at the pattern
No you don't. That's exactly my point. There is no requirement that one have a previous version of the MacOS to buy/use a retail copy of Panther.
As for the "bundled" copy, I actually view it as being free rather than integrated in the system price. A computer without an OS is unusable and as I said, Apple wants everyone to use the MacOS as their operating system (instead of using Yellow Dog say). It just makes sense from a business perspective. Dell could care less what OS you use on their PC, they only get a cut of the OS price if it's a retail markup from you buying your upgrade from them (and you can buy a Windows upgrade for your HP on Dell's site). Apple gets revenue even if you shop at Amazon for your Panther upgrade.
No, I mean exactly what I said. I think $129 is a fair price for the full version with new licence, which is what you buy in stores right now. I think it would be nice if Apple were to have an upgrade price as well. User's have to provide the serial numbers from their previous copies of OSX to buy the new version at the lower price. This is how upgrades work for many software companies.
And I don't fell this way because I feel jilted at having bought every version of OSX since it came out for $129. I'm still using OS9, and wont be using OSX until I get my next Mac, and it will have 10.4 preinstalled, so how Apple prices it will have no effect on me.
No you don't. That's exactly my point. There is no requirement that one have a previous version of the MacOS to buy/use a retail copy of Panther.
As for the "bundled" copy, I actually view it as being free rather than integrated in the system price. A computer without an OS is unusable and as I said, Apple wants everyone to use the MacOS as their operating system (instead of using Yellow Dog say). It just makes sense from a business perspective. Dell could care less what OS you use on their PC, they only get a cut of the OS price if it's a retail markup from you buying your upgrade from them (and you can buy a Windows upgrade for your HP on Dell's site). Apple gets revenue even if you shop at Amazon for your Panther upgrade.
No, I mean exactly what I said.
I think $129 is a fair price for the full version with new licence, which is what you buy in stores right now. I think it would be nice if Apple were to have an upgrade price as well. User's have to provide the serial numbers from their previous copies of OSX to buy the new version at the lower price. This is how upgrades work for many software companies.And I don't fell this way because I feel jilted at having bought every version of OSX since it came out for $129. I'm still using OS9, and wont be using OSX until I get my next Mac, and it will have 10.4 preinstalled, so how Apple prices it will have no effect on me.
Re: 10.4 this year? Look at the pattern
Apple gives you no choice but to buy MacOS with the computer. And as a side effect - when you upgrade to OS 10.3, as long as you're installing on Apple hardware the installer is GUARANTEED that you are upgrading. No need to check prior OS - after all, how is it possible you don't have a previous Mac OS version if you own Mac Hardware?
That's enough of that (for me anyway). Hope we get 10.4. Hope it's free (or cheaper) for people who paid for 10.3.
By your logic, Windows also just comes with a PC, you'd view it as being free. Microsoft couldn't survive if Windows was given away.
Apple gives you no choice but to buy MacOS with the computer. And as a side effect - when you upgrade to OS 10.3, as long as you're installing on Apple hardware the installer is GUARANTEED that you are upgrading. No need to check prior OS - after all, how is it possible you don't have a previous Mac OS version if you own Mac Hardware?
That's enough of that (for me anyway). Hope we get 10.4. Hope it's free (or cheaper) for people who paid for 10.3.
Okay, I've been parsing my way through this thread and I really have to ask what can one do with metadata? If WinFS has it and BeOS had it, what did someone do with it.
OK. One example that could be implemented. You work in an insurance agency. You are the team manager that deals with 30 large companies. (Lets say Ford, NW Airlines, Paramount.) You need to review information on that account but you have maybe a half dozen people who may have hundreds of files scattered in multiple directories. (God knows we do.) The typical method users use to organize data is via a hierarchical structure. So.....
Clients ----
-------------Honda
--------------------------04
--------------------------03
--------------------------02
--------------------------01
--------------------------00
And the data paths can get even further convoluted if you are trying to organize your information into specific fields such as claims, policies, etc. With a metadatabase, esp WINFS, you can actually do searches beyond simple file names and paths. Lets go back to my example. Gathering information from this pathing nightmare can be time consuming when you are dealing with dates and filenames. Imagine these files are imbued with additional information that you can add to the metadata? So a manager no longer has to search for *Honda*.doc or *Honda*.xls They can refine their searches into a manner that can bring back information on various data types: word, excel, PowerPoint, e-mails, PDF, JPG, Access databases. And heres the kicker. It can bring back information from data files that arent known or recognized because that WINFS reads the metadata not the file itself. And since WINFS is going to be using XML it would be simple to craft additional data fields such as authors address, and IM number and if that user is currently online and display all that information in a results page. So lets say that manager is wading through this information that was returned and saw that X user who crafted the 02 policy that is up for renewal this month is currently online they could IM right there.
Even better. WINFS will be able to go beyond the local hard drive, beyond even the local server. Potentially one could search every computer in a network. In Microsofts case they will be utilizing XML along with a large feature set of APIs for WINFS. So the potential for creating apps that utilize WINFS is huge.
Metadata is not a new idea but the potential to change how we look at data is. I pray that Apple works on direct integration of WINFS with either 10.4 or 10.5 to allow searches from Longhorn systems to be expanded to Mac systems. I think WINFS is going to be a huge motivator for companies to move to Longhorn. There is a major hesitation to move to XP right now. Many companies dont see a major advantage to moving from 2K to XP. This could change in Longhorn.
Again I think I have a very basic conceptual understanding of how this works. I just havent had enough time to dive into the topic in any meaningful way. Its fascinating though. If you want more info on it:
http://www20.tomshardware.com/storage/20040129/winfs-01.html
regarding licenses, it may be true that apple forces customer to buy the OS license with apple hardware and further installs would be upgrades to the original license. however, the way retail packs work (allowing os install to a computer without os at all) the packs could be described as new/first install packs instead of upgrade which would check if the previous version was already installed.
customers are confused because incense policies and install software behaviour talk a different story. BUT - come to think of it - apple can also be credited for it, because apple could easily sell only upgrade install disks forcing users wishing to erase install to first restore the older software to a formatted drive, prior to upgrading to the newest. this would be really annoying and therefore i just say "thank you" to apple giving me the option to only put in a panther install disk and be done with it.
one think i never have figured out, though, are the coupons included in the os pack. what's the point? one can buy a panther box in store without coupons and by showing copuon of previous os purchase, one doesn't get discounted. that tells me that the retail boxes are in fact new licenses instead of upgrades. if that's true, apple should really give a discount for customers that are truly upgrading the existing license of os "ten" to the newest version. this ownership could easily be proven with the coupons.
that said, i'm happier paying usd129 every year compared to usd400 every three years. apple is really doing a wonderful job.
customers are confused because incense policies and install software behaviour talk a different story. BUT - come to think of it - apple can also be credited for it, because apple could easily sell only upgrade install disks forcing users wishing to erase install to first restore the older software to a formatted drive, prior to upgrading to the newest. this would be really annoying and therefore i just say "thank you" to apple giving me the option to only put in a panther install disk and be done with it.
one think i never have figured out, though, are the coupons included in the os pack. what's the point? one can buy a panther box in store without coupons and by showing copuon of previous os purchase, one doesn't get discounted. that tells me that the retail boxes are in fact new licenses instead of upgrades. if that's true, apple should really give a discount for customers that are truly upgrading the existing license of os "ten" to the newest version. this ownership could easily be proven with the coupons.
that said, i'm happier paying usd129 every year compared to usd400 every three years. apple is really doing a wonderful job.
You misunderstand me. You truly CAN'T use Mac OS X unless you already own a version of Mac OS. I aready said what you did--that this is not artificially enforced. You can install on a blank drive. But that blank drive is ALWAYS in a Mac that came with Mac OS.
OS X needs no more "proof of prior version" beyond the fact that it can only run on Mac.
Yes, some apps have a price scale depending on HOW old your old version is, but that's a lot of complexity for the company, for user, and for stores--so while I think it's a fine idea, it doesn't surprise me that it's often not done. That fact is not Apple-specific.
OS X needs no more "proof of prior version" beyond the fact that it can only run on Mac.
Yes, some apps have a price scale depending on HOW old your old version is, but that's a lot of complexity for the company, for user, and for stores--so while I think it's a fine idea, it doesn't surprise me that it's often not done. That fact is not Apple-specific.