Mac OS X 10.5 Details?

[Fukui]

In many situations it is the same but in many other more advanced scenarios it is not. I still can't figure out how to create separate keywords with Spotlight comments. An example would entering in "New Amsterdam" into the Spotlight comments field but actually wanting the terms to show to completely separate terms-- i.e. "New" separate from "Amsterdam"-- because "New Amsterdam" is fundamentally different from "New" and "Amsterdam". Windows NT (2000, XP, 2003, Vista) allow you to separate the terms using a semicolon.

Well, thats true, but you see, if you just put a space between the words, it performs the search just the same as if it were separate keys.

Like the example from before, you can search for "CS2" or "CS2 Required" or "Required Photoshop" and it would turn up the results from any folder with the Comments "Photoshop CS2 Required File." So if I search for "Photoshop" only, might get the aforementioned folders, and others that I also named photoshop etc...

And, to make it even faster, you can search just be spotlight comments and it would search just like a plain keyword search, ignoring the other metadata.

 

[BGil]

Then,sir, you are not a reasonable buyer. After pointing out so many short comings in a mac.. how come you own one?

Two words: Final Cut Pro

Seriously though, I'm training to be an editor and FCP doesn't run on PC's. I think it's essiential to know FCP and Avid.

Well, thats true, but you see, if you just put a space between the words, it performs the search just the same as if it were separate keys.

Like the example from before, you can search for "CS2" or "CS2 Required" or "Required Photoshop" and it would turn up the results from any folder with the Comments "Photoshop CS2 Required File." So if I search for "Photoshop" only, might get the aforementioned folders, and others that I also named photoshop etc...

That's not the same as the example I gave you. There are times where I want "Amsterdam" but not "New Amsterdam". In fact, I never want a search result to return both because Amsterdam is a place in Europe and New Amsterdam is present day New York.

As you get into tagging loops and sounds you find that this limitation becomes very very annoying. I'll tag one file with "Electric" another with "Piano" and yet another with "Electric Piano". Notice that all three terms are separate and usually when I want one I don't want either of the other two. Spotlight brings them all to me in one big list. Even Garageband lets me access all three of those terms seprate from the others. Feel free to launch Garageband and see how those three terms are separated in the loop browser.

 

[Fukui]

That's not the same as the example I gave you. There are times where I want "Amsterdam" but not "New Amsterdam". In fact, I never want a search result to return both because Amsterdam is a place in Europe and New Amsterdam is present day New York.

Its not exposed at the spotlight interface.

Go to finder, click file->find
Change the query to 'other' from the type menu
Choose raw-query
type: (kMDItemFinderComment == "piano")

If you have any file with the comment "piano" it will find that only.
"Electric Piano" and even "Piano" will not show up.

If you do (kMDItemFinderComment == "electric*piano*")
Then it will find files with the comment "electric piano"

There are also keywords search and properties, but there is not UI AFAIK to add them to a file.

I have a feeling that apple wants the spotlight importers (keyword extraction) to take care of this for you, but someone with some time could make a little search app that adds and searches only by keywords.

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/SpotlightQuery/index.html

 

[mrdennmann]

regarding un-installing software.

Uninstallers and the "add-remove programs" debacle.

those of you that use Windows: try uninstalling iSearch Toolbar, or Gater. Uninstallers require a log or application that will return the registries and remove all componants from the filesystem.
Add/Remove programs requires the program vender to have software the complies with Microsoft's program management system.

Software that fails to provide these two methods often becomes a serious problem, and is often the cause of "PC slowdown" experienced in machines that are infected with Malware, or clogged with an over-burdened registry.

many of my windows-minded friends look at working on the registry to be some test of manhood, like a tatoo, or a venerial desease, personally, I could do without either of these.

with OSX, any installation that uses a *.pkg will leave a receipt in the folder called receipts. the receipt contains the location of all the support files, and the correct permissions for the application. Any install that is drag-n-drop, when launched the first time, will place registration information, and preferences in ~/library/applicationsupport/(vender/application/)

As for Longing for Longhorn, many of the IT personal that I've worked with will not install Vista until they have no choice whatsoever. they were burned with XP, and have no faith that Vista will be any different. On a personal note, the entire idea of a "task based interface" is insulting. Imagine getting out of bed and all of your clothing jumps up into your face and says "would you like to , put me on, put them on, wear undergarmets? or just go into the street completely naked."

I know where my files are, and I know exactly what I'm going to do with them.

 

[BGil]

those of you that use Windows: try uninstalling iSearch Toolbar, or Gater. Uninstallers require a log or application that will return the registries and remove all componants from the filesystem.
Add/Remove programs requires the program vender to have software the complies with Microsoft's program management system.

If the application was recently installed then you can use system restore to get it off.

Software that fails to provide these two methods often becomes a serious problem, and is often the cause of "PC slowdown" experienced in machines that are infected with Malware, or clogged with an over-burdened registry.

"Over-burdened registries" aren't ever the cause of slowdowns on XP. The registry can be loaded with thousands of entries from hundreds of apps and it make no difference on system performance. It's the fact that those apps are running in the background that eats away at your performance. Whether or not they are in the registry make no difference.

 

[plastique45]

Sorry bro, but you don't even understand the problem at all.. Think about this. Lets say you install iTunes update 6.0.1 PACKAGE. How do you uninstall the update? Or something even more trivial, lets say you install iDVD and all the suplimentals. How do you remove it? Ok, so lets say you just drag everything into the trash.. OK, that's fine.. but then over time your OS will still want you to get iDVD updates because it thinks it's still installed and ONTOP of that if you DO want iDVD installed, when you goto install it off the disks, it thinks you already have it installed so it won't let you.

That is the problem... There is no 'simple solution'.

Completely wrong. Software updates scans your applications folder to see if your have iDVD (in this example) installed. If you delete the app, no matter what the iDVD update will never show up. Also, you can reinstall the app without any hitch. If some of the support files are missing, they will be re-installed.

Also, if you delete a support file by mistake, relaunching the app will create a new application support directory.

 

[Peace]

Two words: Final Cut Pro

Seriously though, I'm training to be an editor and FCP doesn't run on PC's. I think it's essiential to know FCP and Avid.



That's not the same as the example I gave you. There are times where I want "Amsterdam" but not "New Amsterdam". In fact, I never want a search result to return both because Amsterdam is a place in Europe and New Amsterdam is present day New York.

As you get into tagging loops and sounds you find that this limitation becomes very very annoying. I'll tag one file with "Electric" another with "Piano" and yet another with "Electric Piano". Notice that all three terms are separate and usually when I want one I don't want either of the other two. Spotlight brings them all to me in one big list. Even Garageband lets me access all three of those terms seprate from the others. Feel free to launch Garageband and see how those three terms are separated in the loop browser.

If you place a quotemark in front of a word spotlight gives a much better result..

For example
Use spotlight for the word amsterdam.See what you get.Then use spotlight for the word "amsterdam.You will find spotlight has narrowed down the results greatly..

 

[Evangelion]

27.7% of all retail PC's in August, 43% of all retail PC's in September. Doesn't sound like a flop to me. If that's a flop them all Macs are flops because Media Center PC's now sell more in a month than Macs sell in the better part of a year.

I believe the numbers for media Center Windows is so high because it has replaced Windows Home Edition (good riddance!) for large part. And just because the share of Media Center edition is so high does not mean that it's actually used for media-related things any more than regural XP is used.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Windows within OSX?

I don't think this has been mentioned anywhere, but I could definitely see Apple supporting Windows running WITHIN OSX, like Virtual PC. The performance would be just as good as dual boot, you would be able to copy and paste between the two OSs, BUT you would always have the parent of OSX to start and end the day within. They could call the app "WindowWell" and it could be that dark little hole where Windows resides for when you need it. Then climb out and see the light.

 

[Will Cheyney]

On the Spotlight topic, is there anyway for Spotlight to search the contents of text documents (.txt and .rtf)

 

[.Joel]

How about a freaking package removal tool? A TON of apps are being installed with packages these days, and there is no way to remove them without some 3rd party hack or riskscrewing everything up.

How can OSX Claim to be the most advanced Operating System with simple things such as 'uninstallation of applications' missing? Come on!! PLEASE???

I too agree with this 100%. Trying to remove things is a pain in the bum. And the only time I ever re-install OSX is when i want to clean up some HDD space due to the excess files taken over.

 

[wdlove]

I don't think this has been mentioned anywhere, but I could definitely see Apple supporting Windows running WITHIN OSX, like Virtual PC. The performance would be just as good as dual boot, you would be able to copy and paste between the two OSs, BUT you would always have the parent of OSX to start and end the day within. They could call the app "WindowWell" and it could be that dark little hole where Windows resides for when you need it. Then climb out and see the light.

I think that would be a great idea. Then finally Windows would perform up to speed, making it worthwhile to use on a Mac.

 

[madmaxmedia]

I don't think this has been mentioned anywhere, but I could definitely see Apple supporting Windows running WITHIN OSX, like Virtual PC. The performance would be just as good as dual boot, you would be able to copy and paste between the two OSs, BUT you would always have the parent of OSX to start and end the day within. They could call the app "WindowWell" and it could be that dark little hole where Windows resides for when you need it. Then climb out and see the light.

Especially with dual core! But it would require a lot of development perhaps. It's probably just easier to be able to dual boot, or buy Virtual PC. Although I'd feel better about future Virtual PC performance if Microsoft hadn't bought it.

I think it's more likely a new third party will develop something that will allow Windows to 'boot up' within Mac OS X. I say that because Microsoft probably doesn't have incentive to provide great Virtual PC performance, and with x86 Macs getting Windows up and running on a Mac is so much easier.

 

[madmaxmedia]

On the Spotlight topic, is there anyway for Spotlight to search the contents of text documents (.txt and .rtf)

I thought it already did? (checking...) Yes, I can search for content within text files. I didn't try a RTF but pretty sure it does for that too-

 

[jayscheuerle]

I think it's more likely a new third party will develop something that will allow Windows to 'boot up' within Mac OS X. I say that because Microsoft probably doesn't have incentive to provide great Virtual PC performance, and with x86 Macs getting Windows up and running on a Mac is so much easier.

Microsoft sells Windows and these systems would have to buy a copy, so what would Microsoft lose (other than a direct comparison of the two systems)?

 

[madmaxmedia]

Microsoft sells Windows and these systems would have to buy a copy, so what would Microsoft lose (other than a direct comparison of the two systems)?

Overall dominance in the OS market. All things being equal, they would still much rather people buy a Wintel PC than a Mactel + Windows.

Since Apple is on the other end of market share, they would like nothing better than existing Windows owners to buy Macs and run both OS X and Windows. Apple is probably confident that a signficant number of people will end up switching to Mac as their full time OS (with Windows only for certain legacy apps.)

You also mention the direct comparison of the 2 systems, my guess is Microsoft would prefer people not to even get that far. Heck, most Wintel owners still use IE, amazingly enough. And that's possibly the worst part of Windows...

 

[jayscheuerle]

Overall dominance in the OS market. All things being equal, they would still much rather people buy a Wintel PC than a Mactel + Windows.

To a degree. Last thing Microsoft wants to do at this point is crush Apple out of existence. They need them alive, not dead.

Microsoft isn't worried about Apple on the OS front, it's more about emerging technologies (like how Apple made Microsoft a non-player in the portable mp3 market with the iPod). Microsoft is worried about the convergence of TV and the PC. They have their Media Edition of Windows, but it's not catching on. The last thing they want is for Apple to win the video market as well.

 

[madmaxmedia]

To a degree. Last thing Microsoft wants to do at this point is crush Apple out of existence. They need them alive, not dead.

Microsoft isn't worried about Apple on the OS front, it's more about emerging technologies (like how Apple made Microsoft a non-player in the portable mp3 market with the iPod). Microsoft is worried about the convergence of TV and the PC. They have their Media Edition of Windows, but it's not catching on. The last thing they want is for Apple to win the video market as well.

Right, they don't want Apple dead. But Mac OS X isn't going anywhere for awhile. Microsoft will continue to do stuff like release Office, VPC, etc.

At the same time, they are being challenged on some different fronts- iPod, Google (search and the online Office thing), etc. A little Mac success is fine (inconsequential in terms of Windows market share loss). But they don't want Apple gaining any really significant momentum either...

They also don't want Apple's convergence solution (FrontRow and whatever's next) gaining prominence at the expense of Win Media Edition.

I doubt we actually disagree on anything, we're just looking at different perspectives. I agree Microsoft doesn't really care that much right now., but I can see them foot-dragging on a new killer VPC for Mactel that offers really good Windows performance on Macs. All high tech companies are paranoid about 10 years down the road, starting around when Andy Grove wrote that book, don't remember the title (bend in the road, oh no here comes the future, something Dilbert generic like that.)

 

[Marky_Mark]

All high tech companies are paranoid about 10 years down the road, starting around when Andy Grove wrote that book, don't remember the title (bend in the road, oh no here comes the future, something Dilbert generic like that.)

The book was called "Only the Paranoid Survive" - I have a copy (it was free, passed out at an HP/Intel-sponsored tech conference, I hasten to add)

 

[Marky_Mark]

Overall dominance in the OS market. All things being equal, they would still much rather people buy a Wintel PC than a Mactel + Windows....

Why would M$ worry what platform you buy your Windows licence to run on as long as you purchase a licence in the first place? The only thing they have to fear is people exercising choice and buying an Intel platform with Mac OS instead of Windows pre-installed. Just think, they may have to work for their suppers instead of relying on the world's apathy to keep the tills ringing!

If anyone is going to profit from this it will be Apple. *IF* they offer their software external to their platform (eg shipping as an optional pre-install on Dell, HP etc, or as a boxed set of platform-independant CD's), then they will capture a market of 'interested experimenters', and who knows? It may just be the turning point as far as market share is concerned. Once people have the OS there in front of them and it doesn't involve any conscious decision to 'switch', I think they'll make a modest investment in time and the OS will sell itself through use.

 

[madmaxmedia]

Why would M$ worry what platform you buy your Windows licence to run on as long as you purchase a licence in the first place? The only thing they have to fear is people exercising choice and buying an Intel platform with Mac OS instead of Windows pre-installed. Just think, they may have to work for their suppers instead of relying on the world's apathy to keep the tills ringing!

If anyone is going to profit from this it will be Apple. *IF* they offer their software external to their platform (eg shipping as an optional pre-install on Dell, HP etc, or as a boxed set of platform-independant CD's), then they will capture a market of 'interested experimenters', and who knows? It may just be the turning point as far as market share is concerned. Once people have the OS there in front of them and it doesn't involve any conscious decision to 'switch', I think they'll make a modest investment in time and the OS will sell itself through use.

You asked and answered your own question in your first paragraph. All things being equal, Microsoft would rather people have Windows-only computers, because they are then the most likely to continue using Windows.

And yes, the company that can profit from this is indeed Apple, who has confidence that given a choice right there on your computer to use Windows or Mac OS X, they believe most people will end up using Mac OS X. Plus, they're the ones with marginal market share anyway. Windows has such a large market share they really can only go down, and Microsoft naturally wants to keep their market share.

As a prominent businessman once said, "only the paranoid survive..."

 

[TodVader]

I have a question on 10.5:

Is this the OS X that is planned for Intel or will we PPC users be able to use it?

I sure hope its the second.

 

[iPhil]

I have a question on 10.5:

Is this the OS X that is planned for Intel or will we PPC users be able to use it?

I sure hope its the second.

The 10.5 aka "Leopard" will be universal for PPC and Intel

PPC group will still get support from apple and other companies for another 5 to 10 years after intel switch is done .. Apple ain't that 'stupid' to drop millions of PPC customers like that.. PPC group for right now is the core base of Mac Users.


So if you buy a PPC Mac e.g. iMac G5 you're fine for years to come..
But if you have like a Mac mini then you'll be fine for 2 years because the mini is 'base' model since you're only upgrading the 'core' system it'll be cheaper on your next Mac ..

iphil

 

[aranhamo]

Regarding the "uninstall" option -- it should be simple for Apple to provide a "Do You Want To Trash All Related Data?" question whenever you trash an application. That way, uninstallation is as easy as dragging an app to the trash.

Though I must say, unlike the Windows world, most people simply leave everything on there. It's not a widespread issue for most applications and users.

I work with installs for a living, and I can tell you that this is a lot more complex a problem than everyone thinks. Definitely not simple by any stretch of the imagination. There isn't a single package management system or uninstall feature out there, on any OS, that works very well. Some are better than others, and pretty much all of them are better than the Windows one. It's not the fault of the programmers trying to design a package manager either. It's just really complex, and no matter what you do, some programmer will always do something in his app that will break your package manager (in the sense that it won't be able to cleanly remove your files).

I put the onus on developers to design their applications so that they are totally contained in their .app file, or else provide their own uninstaller that cleanly removes the application. There are things that a package manager cannot anticipate very well, like files created by an app after installation, when it is first run for example. Or an app might change access control on a file and make it so the package manager can't remove it. Or the app might move files, so the package manager can't find them anymore. There are a hundred different things that can happen that will confuse even the best package manager.

What users need to do is hold developers responsible for facilitating uninstallation of their applications, and make uninstallation just as important a feature as installation. Most developers make an install at the very end and don't do anything for the uninstall except for the automatic features included in their install creator. I spend a lot of time when making installs for my company making sure that the uninstall works thoroughly and in all cases. Sometimes it can be a lot of work, but for us it's considered very important because our software is used in-house and we often need to go back and forth between versions.

 

[Fukui]

It's not the fault of the programmers trying to design a package manager either. It's just really complex, and no matter what you do, some programmer will always do something in his app that will break your package manager (in the sense that it won't be able to cleanly remove your files).

Yep, when you think about shared resources (libraries) this gets even more confusing. If you give stuffit expander the stick and uninstall it, do you uninstall everything? Or just the applications? If you uninstall everything, what about apps that require its libraries like Pathfinder? Thats one of the banes of using windows that I um... fondly remember... cause almost everything is registered in the registry and uses an installer.

One real difference is comparing the install of Xcode vs. Codewarrior.
I was *shocked* codewarrior was just a folder! Thats it! Thats almost magic compared to the typical installer crap. And really, in the ideal world it shouldn't be even a folder, just the .app application and the trash can.