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To be honest, I'm worried about Leopard. 4 months before Tiger was released the seeds we were getting were pretty stable, feature-complete, and could easily be used as your main OS.

We're now, at most, 4 months before Leopard is due and apparently the seeds are completely unstable and definitely not feature complete. I'm sure most ADC members will agree if they install the latest seed and try to use the Preview app, the quicklook feature... in fact, almost every app and every part of the system still has bugs pretty severe bugs. Furthermore, we've not even SEEN any of the 10 top secret features yet. Even if these are separate apps as some people think, they should still be in the seeds so as they can be properly bug-tested by a large number of users.

Steve Jobs never said there were TEN top secret features.
This release is NOT "completely unstable"
There are features in Leopard that are dependent on "top secret features" that make it "seem" unstable.As soon as the "secret features" are released you will find the "bugs" gone as in POOF.

Do not make these kind of statements unless you can go under the hood and see what's going on.

Yes.I have the new seed and I look under the hood daily and hourly.

It's not nice to make these kind of statements without knowing exactly what's going on.

Wait.

You will LOVE Leopard and say "why didn't I think of that"
 
Steve Jobs never said there were TEN top secret features.
This release is NOT "completely unstable"
There are features in Leopard that are dependent on "top secret features" that make it "seem" unstable.As soon as the "secret features" are released you will find the "bugs" gone as in POOF.

Do not make these kind of statements unless you can go under the hood and see what's going on.

Yes.I have the new seed and I look under the hood daily and hourly.

It's not nice to make these kind of statements without knowing exactly what's going on.

Wait.

You will LOVE Leopard and say "why didn't I think of that"

Geez, not in a good mood today?
 
Geez, not in a good mood today?

I'm in a fine mood.Just tired of reading all these armchair quarterbacks talking about something they know nothing about.

I understand you're frustration but it isn't even spring yet.

And BTW 9a377a does indeed mean this is a separate seed from other internal seeds that have the top secret features.I can guarantee you those seeds are a LOT more "stable"
 
I'm in a fine mood.Just tired of reading all these armchair quarterbacks talking about something they know nothing about.

I understand you're frustration but it isn't even spring yet.

Firstly, I find it insulting that you assume I know nothing about the subject. I have an extremely high level of experience with OS X, including Leopard, both as a user and as a developer.

Secondly, I never said I was frustrated. I said I was worried. Specifically, I am worried that Leopard will either be late or that it will be released with substantial bugs.

Finally, you are being hypocritical. You chastise me for making comments on Leopard - claiming, very incorrectly, that I know nothing about it. However, you make similar comments that, to me, seem far more unfounded than anything I said...

There are features in Leopard that are dependent on "top secret features" that make it "seem" unstable.

As soon as the "secret features" are released you will find the "bugs" gone as in POOF.
 
Firstly, I find it insulting that you assume I know nothing about the subject. I have an extremely high level of experience with OS X, including Leopard, both as a user and as a developer.

Secondly, I never said I was frustrated. I said I was worried. Specifically, I am worried that Leopard will either be late or that it will be released with substantial bugs.

Finally, you are being hypocritical. You chastise me for making comments on Leopard - claiming, very incorrectly, that I know nothing about it. However, you make similar comments that, to me, seem far more unfounded than anything I said...


I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you.

Let's just let it go with I know what's going on ok ? :)
 
I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you.

Let's just let it go with I know what's going on ok ? :)

Meh. Without you showing any proof that you know more about Leopard than the standard ADC member then the best I can do is agree to disagree.
 
Well, trying to be positive here, I guess the more frequent the seeds, the closer we are to release...still, 'spring' begins in 18 days, so Apple has 3.5 months to release it. With the number of known bugs and the lack of any new features, I'm afraid I'm sticking with a June release prediction. Maybe not shipping until July even. Yuck, but we can hope all this delay means a bugless and productive OS from day 1.

On a side note, I'm playing around with virtual desktop programs now to soothe my need for spaces. they work well, but they're certainly not as slick or well implemented as spaces looks to be...

Or they might release 10.5.0 with known bug (pick the bugs least likely to affect lots of people, or bugs that just cause annoyances and not big issues)

Then we'll all need to wait it out until 10.5.1 or 10.5.2 before we get what should have been 10.5.0. I'm as ancy as everyone else, I want it and I want it now. But I'd rather have a stable June release than a buggy March/April release. I think I could live through and work around alot of bugs, but my family and friends (not very tech savvy) would not want/be able to....and they will want to upgrade the new OS when it's released.
 
Peace, can you shed any non-NDA light on a release timeframe (or at least a stevenote) for leopard? I would not be stepping out on a limb (i think?) to say that you probably know but can't tell us. If so, can you at least say if it's sooner rather than later (given that the timeframe is March to June)?
 
Peace, can you shed any non-NDA light on a release timeframe (or at least a stevenote) for leopard? I would not be stepping out on a limb (i think?) to say that you probably know but can't tell us. If so, can you at least say if it's sooner rather than later (given that the timeframe is March to June)?

To be honost anything I would say would be purely educated guesses so I can't.Not to mention the NDA.

Put it this way.

In MY opinion NAB is an important benchmark.

Like I've been saying for 4 months.
 
Two different builds???

The only person I know currently testing has not been receiving the same build numbers that I have seen posted here since 10.5 went out to developers. It would seem like an odd thing to do but could there be more than one "version" going around with different "secret/new" features enabled?
 
The only person I know currently testing has not been receiving the same build numbers that I have seen posted here since 10.5 went out to developers. It would seem like an odd thing to do but could there be more than one "version" going around with different "secret/new" features enabled?

What build numbers has your friend been receiving?
 
time machine

Do you think time machine will allow network drives as backup hard drive.

For example,

I've at home a network, with a PC full of disk space.
Could I use this free space on hard drives, to be a backup solution for timemachine, fully transparently threw wifi ??
 
It was nice to see the large amount of love being shown for Xcode in those release notes.

Adding stuff like CoreAnimation and resolution independence to the system is all well and good, but the development tools need to be up to speed and fully aware of these abilities for them to actually get into the users' hands via updated and new apps.

I'm working on a Windows app at work which uses WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation). Now, this is the framework which gives Vista something approaching the abilities of Quartz on the Mac. From what I've seen so far, it's not quite up to what CoreAnimation is promising. Plus (and here's a dirty not-so-secret!) all the whizz-bang DirectX accelerated GUI is 100% available to Windows XP users right now -- and has been since before Vista was released -- in the guise of the .NET Framework 3.0).

Developing for WPF has been something of a chore so far. The integration pack for Visual Studio 2005 (the latest available dev tools) is weak and incomplete. The designer's only partially aware of XAML-based WPF forms and controls. XAML code has something of a learning curve to it, not really helped by the fact that the dev environment doesn't help out much. The 'real-deal' is promised for the next version of Visual Studio (codenamed 'Orcas'), which will no doubt be a paid upgrade from 2005 (and probably not at an inconsequential price).

With a fully-aware Xcode, coupled with the likes of CoreAnimation, I suspect that actual real-world Leopard apps which really take the OS's capabilities and make something great will be available much sooner than anything similar for Vista.

I really must try to take some time to get to know Cocoa... :)
 
I do not believe that the new features will "POOF" make the bugs disappear, but it is theoretically possible. As I do not actually have a Leopard preview (read: I don't have $500 to spend for it when primarily I develop web applications and command line applications), I cannot really tell.

I just think that it is likely that the not actually very extensive list of bugs has either been (mostly) fixed in one of Apple's own forks, and just not merged (perhaps because it would cause danger of releasing secrets), or else are easy to fix, and Apple just hasn't done it yet, prefering to focus on other things.

However, it seems (from what I have been reading) that Apple has not really been working all that hard on the seeds which have been shown to developers. They have probably only been giving developers what they have needed, for example:
Time Machine: Applications should integrate well with this. See the preview on Apple's website - doing integration with iPhoto like that takes coding not just in Time Machine but in iPhoto as well.
iChat: There is some integration with that iChat theater feature that developers can work on
iCal: There are apparently some new features here for querying, etc.
Dashboard: One word: Dashcode
Spotlight: No new features except some new integration things, I believe, and more search capabilities. Nothing exciting, so why hide it?
Accessibility: Programs need to use accessibility features to be accessible.
64-bit: Self explanitory.
Core Animation: This is pretty much Only a developer's feature. The developers use it to create great things for us (read: me!)
Mail: This one I'm not sure what the improvements are needed for for the developers
Safari: The tab moving-around stuff and help and search stuff are probably meant more to give developers ideas (and why hide it - it isn't that much). After all, what good is Core Animation if you have no idea what to do with it?
ZFS File System: There are probably integration issues for developers.

In fact, I think Apple may be not fixing bugs in the developer previews because they have been burnt by over-enthusiastic merges of code before. I believe it is likely that the iPhone "hints" we got through string resources in iTunes came from such merges, when a developer accidentaly merged information pertaining to the iPhone.

I bet Apple has fixed this mistake by keeping their forks for Leopard almost completely separate, only merging when they absolutely have to.

Now, since I have given my thoughts on what the practices of the Leopard developers might be, I can now offer some speculation on things which might be done:
Zoom: Based on some of what I saw on the ADC website, it looks like only a few lines of code would be needed for Apple to modify that little green zoom button on every window to not just suddenly change the size of a window, but instead do it gradually, using (you guessed it) Core Animation.
Close: Could we see some animations on closing windows? A fading-out? A whirlpool/wind? Something like when you press "X" for a widget on Dashboard? Again, would probably take very minimal coding on Apple's part. Would be almost tragic if they didn't do it! Though, they may not have thought of it...)
New User Interface: I think we might see a movement towards a UI which looks like iTunes does. iTunes is installed on more computers than any other piece of Apple software, so it is likely enough that we can look to that to demonstrate how future UIs from Apple will look. iTunes 6 was an accurate precurser to iLife 6, after all.

The first two I wouldn't count on, even though they would probably be exceedingly simple to implement. (Though I am not sure about that zoom button - that might actually be implemented through software, which would make it the developer's choice on whether or not to add any neat effects). The third, I give it a 70-30 or 80-20 chance that it will happen.
 
Have anything tangible to back that up? I'm in the same boat, i.e., last build is extremely buggy. It'd be great if it was due to "top secret" features being left out, but the problems seem to be coming from core technologies, both new and documented, and pre-existing.

I'll try this next build as well, but I honestly don't have too much hope given the state of the last build.

This release is NOT "completely unstable"
There are features in Leopard that are dependent on "top secret features" that make it "seem" unstable.As soon as the "secret features" are released you will find the "bugs" gone as in POOF.
 
I do not believe that the new features will "POOF" make the bugs disappear, but it is theoretically possible. As I do not actually have a Leopard preview (read: I don't have $500 to spend for it when primarily I develop web applications and command line applications), I cannot really tell.

I just think that it is likely that the not actually very extensive list of bugs has either been (mostly) fixed in one of Apple's own forks, and just not merged (perhaps because it would cause danger of releasing secrets), or else are easy to fix, and Apple just hasn't done it yet, prefering to focus on other things.

However, it seems (from what I have been reading) that Apple has not really been working all that hard on the seeds which have been shown to developers. They have probably only been giving developers what they have needed, for example:

<SNIP>
I'd have to agree with this assessment... Think of it this way....

If Apple were to completely rewrite the mounting service (to make ftp completely work in the finder), the finder, some of the other problem areas in the OS, and the underlying code, how unstable would a hacked together version containing the old versions of hdutil, Finder.app, etc be for the developers it was seeded to?

I'd imagine it could cause some problems. Working extensively on the "old" versions of the Finder, et al. would be wasted effort and not worth doing. If the internal *secret* build works perfectly, and the exposed developer APIs are working as needed, who cares??? ....at least as far as Apple is concerned.
 
IMHO..

The ONLY reason 9a377a was released was because the Airport Extreme was released.This gives dev's the tools to implement their apps.This is why "sharepoints" was included.

And..

The :apple: TV is "due" March 20th'ish ( said with humor ).This also gives devs like say for example Elgato,inc. the chance to "intergrate" their app with the new Front Row.This is why there is a new spotlight.

After a while it's not hard to look at this stuff and realize 2+2=4.


April release like I've been saying.If I'm wrong people here have every right to call me anything they want.And I will humbly accept it.

but that ain't gonna happen
 
new look and feel?

Have heard a lot about Leopard seeds, and some leaked screen shots and such, but I have not heard anything about a new look and feel to replace the aging Aqua. (That being said, Aqua is still the king of L&F, the gold standard, but it has been relatively unchanged for 5 years and the inconsistent-across-apps thing bugs me -- ex. why is Safari brushed metal, and Mail is clean?)

So should I assume Leopard will look just like Tiger, or is it normal for Apple to throw in such major changes at the 11th hour in this beta builds? Just seems like they should want to get a big new thing in testers hand sooner rather than later.

Can't help but think OS X is going to go all black like their current web site. Not sure I'd like that -- but it could save laptop battery life, and they could also play on an environmental angle.
 
I don't think one would be able to go to the Apple store and buy a Leopard CD till end of June or even till July. All this "spring" BS is getting old.
 
So should I assume Leopard will look just like Tiger, or is it normal for Apple to throw in such major changes at the 11th hour in this beta builds? Just seems like they should want to get a big new thing in testers hand sooner rather than later.

I don't know about "normal". I do, however, think it would be "easy" (at least in how the look and feel is currently implemented) to do drastic modifications. I do not know for sure, but I believe the current look and feel is all drawn by .pngs and .bmps, etc. Thus, all that would need to be changed to change (even drastically) all of the look and feel is to change those pictures. Very simple, very easy. The hard part is actually designing the new look and feel.

However, it might get a bit more complicated. Apple is introducing resolution independence, which may require that controls actually be "drawn", not just copied from existing pictures. However, if these controls are "drawn" from .SVG files (an image format for vector-graphics, for those who don't know), then it would still be extremely easy to modify the user interface. The only reason Apple would have any need to notify developers or test out anything at all is if they changed the actual size of any item (say, changed the width of all scrollbars to be 1 pixel wider).

So no, any look-and-feel change would not really need to be shown to anyone before OS X Leopard is released.

Can't help but think OS X is going to go all black like their current web site. Not sure I'd like that -- but it could save laptop battery life, and they could also play on an environmental angle.

I've thought of this as well, but I'm not sure how easy it would be on the eyes. If they did this, they would most likely have it as an option. (Perhaps an option which is on by default, but still an option.) Though, they might make key components black, such as the menubar and buttons, while leaving the background of things white. Still I think it would be more likely that they would make things look like iTunes does.
 
I don't think one would be able to go to the Apple store and buy a Leopard CD till end of June or even till July. All this "spring" BS is getting old.

how is it getting old? its not even spring
 
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