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Well, for starters, how about the ability to assign the same exact view to every folder? That's a feature of the 80s, really, that isn't in OS X.

How about having more columns in List View that utilizes all that "amazing" metadata? That's a feature of Windows XP from 2001.

And Apple liked Sort By Group enough to put it in Spotlight results, but why not the Finder? That's another feature of Windows XP 2001.

You want more?

Sounds fixable by Apple if they see that it's necessary. Thanks for the input. Hopefully your concerns will be addressed, that is if you are a Mac user. At any rate your concerns about the Finder are valid points but comparing how Windows does it better is pointless. We can go down this road all day and Windows will never win.
Why don't you ask Microsoft why Windows has a such a stupid design of a desktop. There's no drag and drop installation like say....Mac OS X does.
Why does Windows after all these years still use that irritating Registry? Why can't Windows' programs contain everything in one Folder like say.......Mac OS X does? By doing this the Mac way there's no ridiculous un-installing required to get rid of most files. And we all know that the Windows Registry can jack up your files.

See, it's fine to point out Mac OS X's issues that you have concerns with but to compare it what Windows does better makes Windows sound superior and that ain't true.
 
Sounds fixable by Apple if they see that it's necessary. Thanks for the input. Hopefully your concerns will be addressed, that is if you are a Mac user. At any rate your concerns about the Finder are valid points but comparing how Windows does it better is pointless. We can go down this road all day and Windows will never win.
Why don't you ask Microsoft why Windows has a such a stupid design of a desktop. There's no drag and drop installation like say....Mac OS X does.
Why does Windows after all these years still use that irritating Registry? Why can't Windows' programs contain everything in one Folder like say.......Mac OS X does? By doing this the Mac way there's no ridiculous un-installing required to get rid of most files. And we all know that the Windows Registry can jack up your files.

See, it's fine to point out Mac OS X's issues that you have concerns with but to compare it what Windows does better makes Windows sound superior and that ain't true.

I'm a big Mac fan, but that's really irrelevant. Again, just stick to the points I raise.

Your assertion that OS X doesn't have "registry" issues is garbage. OS X doesn't have a "Registry", but it has issues with Receipts, Frameworks, Preferences, Application Support files.

Your assertion that all the applications are drag and drop install and are packages is also garbage.

How do you install all Adobe applications? How do you install Apple's own pro applications? You use an installer and it installs files all over the system folders.

Listen, I'm a real Mac user, so you guys can't lie about OS X and get away with it.

I purchased Final Cut Studio 2 and installed it. Motion 3 was sooo slow and buggy, I had to go back to Motion 2. But wait! OS X doesn't have an uninstaller! I put the FCS 2 DVD in and tried to find an uninstaller there. Nope. So how do you uninstall Motion 3? You have to manually hunt for files in several places and delete them manually. Which files? You have to guess. Apple used to have a tech note with a long list of files you had to delete to uninstall Motion 1. That tech note is gone.

What's worse is that the other pro applications rely on the same files, so you can't just run an uninstaller for Motion 3 and leave the rest of Final Cut Studio 2. Nooooooooo. You have to have it all go back to FCS 1. So I thought I had uninstalled Motion 3 and Compressor and Final Cut and Soundtrack Pro and DVD Studio Pro (lame that it's still version 4). I reinstalled FCS 1. I finally got Motion 2 running, except Compressor doesn't work now.

Do you know what the solution for my problem is? It reminds me of Windows users from 1999. The solution is for me to reinstall OS X and then reinstall FCS!

OS X desperately needs a global uninstaller in the OS. Also, OS X desperately needs a snapshot utility built into the OS so you can go back in time in your system folder to a point before you got some software update that hosed your application.

Windows is garbage. There's no debating that. The whole experience is just garbage compared to OS X, but OS X is very far from perfect and there are many things in Windows that I wish OS X had, some things that are very basic features that I can't believe we still don't have.
 
You can! It just won't override the folder where you've specified that you want a different view.

OS X won't let me assign the same view to all folders at once - period. You also can't set a default for when you create a new folder, which requires that I manually set it every single time.

I'm happy to hear more, but I'd also like to suggest that the Windows Explorer isn't "all that". Again, as I've said before, both have strengths and weaknesses.

What would be the strength of the Finder?
 
I don't take my OS personally. And I DO disagree with your assertion that the Finder is a joke. I've used many different file browsers (Finder replacements, 3D file browsers, Linux file browsers, Windows file browsers, etc.), and I haven't found anything so compelling as to suggest that the Finder is, in any way, a joke. Sure, some of them have some interesting features that might even be compelling, if they were well implemented (which, in most cases, they weren't).

In fact, a simple comparison would be with the dominant file browser, Windows Explorer. Comparing WE with MF one can see that each has strengths and each has weaknesses compared with the other. However, neither is a joke. Some features exist in one that some people would like to see in the other, while other people couldn't care less. The absence of such a feature doesn't make one file browser or the other a joke, either.

Once again, I don't take my OS personally. And I'm trying hard not to take your insistence on using offensive and demeaning language personally, either.

Your opinion is different than mine. I get that. You don't think the Finder is a joke. I do. No problem.

I'm curious what features are in the Finder that aren't in Vista, because I think the list of features in Vista's Explorer and file dialogs that aren't in OS X is very, very long.

Question - do you own Vista? I own both.
 
Just noticed this snippet :

'However, it's also useful for scanning through a huge pile of HTML files with unintelligible names; Cover Flow very rapidly renders each page so you can visually peruse the directory contents looking for the page you need.'

As a web designer this sounds hugely useful!
 
I'm happy to hear more

Windows Explorer gives you thumbnails of video files. The Tiger Finder does not. I have a folder of QuickTime backgrounds on my Mac. I have to manually click on each one to see what they look like (Juice Drops). On Windows, you don't have to manually click on each one, it gives you a thumbnail.

Windows Explorer gives you thumbnails of PDF files. The Tiger Finder does not.

Does Leopard do these things in Icon View now? I see Cover Flow does, but I don't want to go one at a time. I'd prefer to see them all at once in Icon View. I think that new feature in iPhoto where you mouse over the icon and you can scrub the stack of photos would be great in the Finder in Icon view, especially on QuickTime movies.

Apple simply needs to apply some of the great features they have in iLife and iTunes to the Finder. If it's a good management feature for a photo or song, it's a good management feature in the Finder.

Windows Explorer gives you the ability to move a file/folder without having to click and drag, which can be tedious when you have to hover over folder, wait for it to open, drag to another folder and hover, wait for it to open, etc. I happen to think Cut and Paste (name it whatever you want, I don't want to argue stupid semantics) works really well. Apple finally gave us Copy, but not Cut. I don't know why.

Windows open/save dialog has more views that are very useful, including Thumbnails and Details with lots of columns to sort. The Finder has List with only Date Modified, and Column view. Are you kidding me? Why not use all that metadata and use tags?

Windows open dialog has fixed preview pane for all views that gives you a large preview of any file you click on. The Finder only has a preview in Column view, and it's small.

Windows open and save dialogs let you edit file names, delete files. The Finder doesn't. This is very useful.

Apple realizes that their open/save dialogs are too limited, so their pro applications come with their own file interface as a tab. While this new interface gives me thumbnails (yea!), it doesn't have the sidebar shortcuts from the Finder (boo!) and has no way for me to create shortcuts in it. So I end up having to manually navigate my hard drive, which is lame. Why can't Apple get this right? Give me thumbnails and also give me the ability to customize the shortcuts. Also, Apple completely ignores metadata and keywords in their file dialogs.

You want more?
 
I'm curious what features are in the Finder that aren't in Vista, because I think the list of features in Vista's Explorer and file dialogs that aren't in OS X is very, very long.

That's because Vista is a typical Microsoft product: Software designed around a feature checklist without regard as to whether or not most people will actually need or want said features.

Before you ask, I was an SDE at Microsoft for five years (four years in the Business Division working on Office; one year in Platform Products working on Vista). In Redmond, new features always trump elegance and refinement. That's how they "win."

As for Vista, I use it every day. It's broken. I don't care how many features it has. It was rushed out the door by wrong thinking management who refused to hear that it wasn't ready. In fact, the entire Vista development cycle was the biggest train wreck in Microsoft's history and perhaps the ultimate embarrassment of a megalomaniacal corporation overflowing with arrogance.

Back on topic, just how much of your computing time do you spend managing files? For me it's less than 1%, and I'm an excessively organized individual who suffers from OCD.

In any case, I've never found Finder lacking for day to day stuff. I admit it's not great for heavy lifting, but that's where Terminal comes in. I also have the same pattern on Windows: Explorer for most tasks. Command Prompt when I need to reorganize a lot of files quickly. (Too bad cmd.exe doesn't hold a candle to bash, but that's another argument.)

As for Leopard, I think most people will be quite happy with the updated Finder. It has a nice, simple UI combined with some great refinements under the hood. It doesn't have to be Path Finder because not everyone needs or wants that kind of complexity.
 
I don't know how to make this idea really work, but I think the whole idea of open dialog boxes is wrong. Why simulate a few features of the Finder (or Windows Explorer) in a separate window? It ought to use the real Finder, and let me do anything I want (navigate, open, move, rename, delete, launch, arrange, Exposé, etc.) on the way to identifying the file I want to open. I imagine having a "mode" where you are opening a file for an application, which puts you back in the Finder with an extra feature: the ability to say "THIS file" when you are good and ready.
 
That's because Vista is a typical Microsoft product: Software designed around a feature checklist without regard as to whether or not most people will actually need or want said features.

Before you ask, I was an SDE at Microsoft for five years (four years in the Business Division working on Office; one year in Platform Products working on Vista). In Redmond, new features always trump elegance and refinement. That's how they "win."

As for Vista, I use it every day. It's broken. I don't care how many features it has. It was rushed out the door by wrong thinking management who refused to hear that it wasn't ready. In fact, the entire Vista development cycle was the biggest train wreck in Microsoft's history and perhaps the ultimate embarrassment of a megalomaniacal corporation overflowing with arrogance.

Back on topic, just how much of your computing time do you spend managing files? For me it's less than 1%, and I'm an excessively organized individual who suffers from OCD.

In any case, I've never found Finder lacking for day to day stuff. I admit it's not great for heavy lifting, but that's where Terminal comes in. I also have the same pattern on Windows: Explorer for most tasks. Command Prompt when I need to reorganize a lot of files quickly. (Too bad cmd.exe doesn't hold a candle to bash, but that's another argument.)

As for Leopard, I think most people will be quite happy with the updated Finder. It has a nice, simple UI combined with some great refinements under the hood. It doesn't have to be Path Finder because not everyone needs or wants that kind of complexity.

Yeah, instead of giving me a list of the strong points of the Finder, you tell me that we don't even need the Finder that much and that Vista, overall, is crap. Well, I agree that Vista, overall, is crap. But that's not the point. The point is the Finder is a very weak file management application and we are discussing what would be great additions to the Finder. There are some great, useful features in Vista's Explorer and file dialogs that I wish OS X had.

This is typical Mac zealotry, really. You guys like to say that feature X, Y, Z isn't needed until Apple adds it to their OS, and then the argument changes from "we don't need that" to "Apple did it much better". Yeah, Apple usually does do things in a more efficient, easier-to-use way. Apple is good at doing something that others are already doing but doing it better.

To answer your question, I work in the Finder all the time. I create projects for clients using Photoshop, Illustrator, Motion, After Effects, Flash, GoLive, Director, DVD Studio Pro, Cinema 4D, Soundtrack Pro. I also use Mail, Safari, Firefox on sites that Safari doesn't support, Yummy FTP, Preview, iTunes, PowerPoint, Excel, Word.

Each project I have includes dozens and dozens of files - new files created from scratch and also files that are already on the hard drive in other folders.

Having a metadata-driving file system would be very nice. It would allow me to just add tags to my files as they are created without requiring me to create a folder hierarchy for my projects like Project X: Photoshop, Motion, Backgrounds, 3D, Scripts, Audio...

File management is a big part of using a computer. Because the Finder is so weak, managing my files on OS X is more tedious than it has to be. This is one area of Windows Vista that is better than OS X, in my opinion. And any objective analysis I read on the Net seems to agree with this viewpoint.

But if you think having to manually set your view options for every folder is an easier way of doing things, go right ahead. ;)
 
I don't know how to make this idea really work, but I think the whole idea of open dialog boxes is wrong. Why simulate a few features of the Finder (or Windows Explorer) in a separate window? It ought to use the real Finder, and let me do anything I want (navigate, open, move, rename, delete, launch, arrange, Exposé, etc.) on the way to identifying the file I want to open. I imagine having a "mode" where you are opening a file for an application, which puts you back in the Finder with an extra feature: the ability to say "THIS file" when you are good and ready.

Vista's Explorer is more like what you are describing than OS X. The file dialogs in Vista let you do just about everything a regular Explorer window does.
 
Yeah, instead of giving me a list of the strong points of the Finder, you tell me that we don't even need the Finder that much and that Vista, overall, is crap. Well, I agree that Vista, overall, is crap. But that's not the point. The point is the Finder is a very weak file management application and we are discussing what would be great additions to the Finder. There are some great, useful features in Vista's Explorer and file dialogs that I wish OS X had.

I don't need the Finder that much, but that's not to say you don't either. That's why I asked the question. When someone makes a complaint about a product, it's usually a good idea to understand their usage pattern.

In any case, I'm not saying the Finder is perfect. Far from it. But Apple has always been about striking a balance between features and simplicity. Microsoft is exactly the opposite. Your arguments make it sound like you want Finder to become Explorer, and that just isn't going to happen.

This is typical Mac zealotry, really.

Ah... The Zealot card. What a fantastic way to help me understand your point of view.

File management is a big part of using a computer. Because the Finder is so weak, managing my files on OS X is more tedious than it has to be.

File management is tedious, period. It's just that I don't find it any less tedious on Windows despite the added features in Explorer. Perhaps what Apple should do is look for ways to innovate in this area rather than copy Microsoft's approach.

In the meantime, I think Leopard's Finder will address a few of your concerns, but I highly doubt you'll be 100% happy with it. Have you tried any alternatives?
 
File management is tedious, period. It's just that I don't find it any less tedious on Windows despite the added features in Explorer.

The equivalency argument is hogwash. Managing windows was more tedious before Exposé. Features make things faster/easer-to-use. Being able to apply one default folder view to all of my folders automatically is less tedious than having to do it manually for each. Being able to see a thumbnail of all my PDF files at once in Icon View is less tedious than having to click on each manually.

Again, dismissing the need because OS X doesn't do something is weak.
 
OS X is very far from perfect and there are many things in Windows that I wish OS X had, some things that are very basic features that I can't believe we still don't have.

I always appreciate posts like this since I don't use Windows (ever!) and it is nice to hear from people who do and are able to objectively compare the two. I am quite sure, knowing that Microsoft does not employ dolts, that Windows must have some features superior to those found in Tiger or even Leopard. Is this enough to make me change platforms: no. Would I rather stick my head in the sand and proclaim Apple infallible: an equally emphatic no!
 
The equivalency argument is hogwash.

Gee, thanks! :rolleyes:

Features make things faster/easer-to-use.

As long as they are intuitive and don't increase the complexity of the task at hand.

Being able to apply one default folder view to all of my folders automatically is less tedious than having to do it manually for each. Being able to see a thumbnail of all my PDF files at once in Icon View is less tedious than having to click on each manually.

Sounds reasonable. Have you used Leopard's Finder yet?

Again, dismissing the need because OS X doesn't do something is weak.

I haven't dismissed anything. It's just that I don't think Explorer's extra features are a panacea for the ills of file management. Yes, it might be nice if Finder borrowed a few things from Explorer, but my hope is that Apple will eventually find a better way.
 
Vista's Explorer is more like what you are describing than OS X. The file dialogs in Vista let you do just about everything a regular Explorer window does.
Agreed. File open dialog boxes have many of the context (right-click) options that Explorer windows do, and Mac OS X is lagging a bit there, but open dialox boxes are still missing the menu chocies that Explorer/Finder windows have (Add to Favorites, Duplicate, and so on). My point is, why have two separate types of windows at all? I'd like to see both platforms study that idea.
 
I don't think this is good. The new Finder looks too much like iTunes.

At this rate, all apps will eventually look like iTunes and you're going to find it really difficult to differentiate between them

Umm ... No. Coverflow is an option. If you don't want to use it, don't. You'll never see it, except as a little button that you'll never press.

Hardly the end of the world.

Cheers

Jim
 
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