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I see your point, I hadn't though of that :eek:. But firstly existing Mac code has similar speed-ups for Altivec, and secondly when coding new stuff you only add these optimisations in at the end where they are needed so you can just use the less efficient original code for PPC customers.

True, but remember that even the 600mhz g4 and slower where left in the 10.4 and they can run leopard faster than a Pentium III runs XP. I don't believe they'll exclude PPC from 10.6, but maybe require a fast G5. Clock per clock G5s and G4s are pretty much the same, but they are clocked higher.
 
regarding timing of 10.6

Steve Jobs to NYTimes
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22apple.html

10.0
March 24 2001 >> base

10.1
September 25 2001 >> 6 months later

10.2
August 23 2002 >> 11 months later

10.3
October 24 2003 >> 14 months later

10.4
April 29 2005 >> 18 months later

10.5
October 26 2007 >> 30 months later
(was expected June 2007 >> 26 months later...)

So, the average time between releases might be 12-18 months, but it is pretty clear Apple have slowed down a lot.
I'm pretty sure 10.6 won't be availabe less than 2 years after the release of Leopard....
unless... unless... 10.6 will be a necessary x64 only, with major new features which Apple really want to show-off, and therefore actually have 2 operating systems available on its store.
10.6 x64 only and Leopard for everyone else, which will stay fully supported, and might get a few 10.6-features, but certainly nor more than a few (think of ZFS etc.)
 
1. The timing seems right for 10.6 (Lion? Lynx? Peruvian Snow Leopard? Okay maybe not the third one...)

2. Why on earth would Apple drop the 10.X before 10.9? That makes no sense. Although they are running out of big cat names. Somehow OS 10.9 Domesticated Housecat doesn't seem to appeal so much.

3. Multitouch? But why? How would Multitouch help in iTunes? In Font Book? In EyeTV (I watch TV on my Mac.... saves so much space not needing a separate unit)? And most of all, how would multitouch benefit Terminal, or the Cocoa development tools?

4. Dropping 32-bit/PowerPC support. NO. Just plain no. Apple wouldn't do that. If the next release of OS X isn't going to have any spectacular new features and concentrate mainly on security and operability, then surely it'll run on the G4 and G5 architecture just as well as the original 32-bit Intel architecture?

Well... thats my opinion anyway. I'm open to being corrected.
 
One thing i noticed in the iPhone SDK was that there is no quicktime framework, it is called MediaPlayer

If this is true this is huge. Seriously Quicktime is probably Apple's worst API, its the only major one where DirectShow (the Win32 equivalent) is superior.

I thought they might do this but not this early :eek:.
 
I've been saying for ages that the iPhone won't be the focus of the WWDC keynote. Yes, it's a new developer platform, but the SDK has been with developers for some time, and they're familiar with what it offers.

OSX 10.6 will be the major announcement. I don't know what it'll bring, but I heavily doubt that it will be multi-touch enabled. Simply because multi-touch is great for handheld devices only. Laptops aren't handheld. You wouldn't get a laptop out on the bus or whilst waiting in a queue.

Multi-touch is only good for handheld devices where typical mouse/keyboard input methods are impractical. That makes it only suitable for tablet-style laptops, which have been a very slow market. The reason for that is that there is no use to them as a tablet. They're too big, and too heavy to carry around. And whilst touching it to use it looks cool, it offers nothing to the experience or practical value of the product.

Apple are proper engineers - they don't fix something unless its broken. They don't add things just for the cool factor. They add things that people will use.

And then there's the software. Most of the software demos you see with Windows 7's multitouch features are just gimmicks - nobody can think of a real practical use for the technology. Which is why it will fail. It works on the iPhone because you are often performing one task, and the screen is small enough to make jumping to buttons easy and not annoying. On a big screen, it gets very annoying. When multitasking, it gets very annoying.

That said, if they really did want to add a tablet in to their product lineup, it would be in the form of an updated MacBook Air. It's light enough to carry around, and not so bulky as to be a real pain. If they do update it, I wouldn't expect it until late 2009. But then, I don't expect them to create a tablet at all.

Muti-touch won't come to iMacs or ACDs as many uninformed kool-aid-addicts seem to want, because it's a stupid idea. Try touching your monitor now, whilst working at your PC. Makes your arm tired really quickly, doesn't it? Try using it for a minute. Now stop shouting about MT-ACDs, because you now know how much of a fool you are.

Yea, so sorry about the long post, but now you will hopefully see why a tablet Mac is not likely any time soon. Probably not with OSX 10.6.
 
unless... unless... 10.6 will be a necessary x64 only, with major new features which Apple really want to show-off, and therefore actually have 2 operating systems available on its store.
10.6 x64 only and Leopard for everyone else, which will stay fully supported, and might get a few 10.6-features, but certainly nor more than a few (think of ZFS etc.)

I don't quite think that would happen. When Steve announced Mac OS X, he said they would follow a singe-OS strategy.
 
So, the average time between releases might be 12-18 months, but it is pretty clear Apple have slowed down a lot.

They've slowed down due to the Intel port and the iPhone. Steve Jobs announced after Leopard that they were going for releases every 12-18 months again.

@ Skeletal daemon, I completely agree with you.
 
In any event, it will almost certainly be suggested that the next version of OS X ("a history-making breakthrough release" - I can hear it now) will ship around the same time as Microsoft currently claims Windows 7 will ship..

Except sources have 10.6 pinned at 2009 and Microsoft is promising Windows 7 in 2010ish.

I can't see why people get excited about a new OS coming out every 12-18 months because, to me, it's just a way of getting more money out of gullible people.

Just because we have all in the past been treated to the “new version every four to five years-ish” release cycle from Microsoft, that is not how most software development works.

Faster increments mean you get feedback quicker and provided you have time to use that feedback to improve in a constructive manor, it will result in faster progress.

As already pointed out, Ubuntu do 6 month release cycles and they have absolutely no commercial gain. It's not about fleecing gullible customers, it's about doing the right thing in relation to the software life cycle.

Feedback keeps people honest. You can't ship a gargantuan update and have it thoroughly tested and perfect first time.

Holding all new features back for three/four/five years waiting for a “major advance” in technology that somehow justifies a new OS release is quite simply a terrible idea that is destined to lead to huge problems that blow anything in your “rusty” Leopard out of the water.

Of course as a commercial company Apple will generally charge for major OS updates (of course what they class as major might not be the same as other people's definition of major). In the end though customers have the choice — take it or leave it. Most choose to take it, not because they are gullible, but because they recognise the value provided by the new software.

Exchange Support and built in App-Store come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

There is no opinion here, its a fact that Intel chips are faster, so I'm afraid you're wrong.

Good call on the App Store, this is something various Linux distros do fairly well, so I can see Apple copying it.

In relation to Intel Chips, I too held this assumption and it certainly seems the case overall. Then a MacRumors poster who works in Photoshop for their living corrected me and said that their Dual Processor PPC G5 units are faster in some operations than the early Mac Pro units which replaced them. We never got to the bottom of why (probably altivec "the velocity engine").

Also without wanting to cover old ground on CISC vs RISC thing — one fact remains. Every major super-computing platform uses RISC processors.

I think the secret features that Steve Jobs talked about a few years ago were not Coverflow or the new finder (wallpaper?). Those features he was talking about were just not ready so they will include them with this 10.6 release.

Steve is many things and often creative with the truth. But it is also his style to under promise and over deliver. He also has a good grasp of what excites consumers about technology and what doesn't. So the “secret features” coming back is a very plausible theory.

Of course it will never be acknowledged as such publicly ("you know those top secret features in Leopard — well here they are, just not in Leopard!", doesn't sound right) and we can argue until the cows come home about whether they existed or wheterit was a just a lot of hype to con us, but between you and me I think you may be on to something here.

For me Leopard had enough new additions and improvements to justify the upgrade without the secret features, but it would be nice to see them.
 
This just feels far to early. Or maybe time has just flown by.

Time has just flown by.

The timing is perfect. Announcement that OS X 10.6 is in the works and a quick look at some of the new features - probably resolution independence as one of the biggies - so Apple needs to get the developers rolling on this to ensure that their apps will work (Apple have been telling developers to work towards this for the past two releases). New file system may be ready to roll (I was glad they didn't try to rush that into 10.5). Lots of enhancements to other features.

Apple need to get 10.6 into the hands of developers within the next few months if they are to be in a position to ship it around April/May next year. In other words by the time the next dev conference comes around OS X 10.6 will be shipping.
 
If this is true this is huge. Seriously Quicktime is probably Apple's worst API, its the only major one where DirectShow (the Win32 equivalent) is superior.

I thought they might do this but not this early :eek:.

Well i am quite sure it is true, i just saw a iPhone intro video where they talked about MediaPlayer. There is a Quicktime icon though, but a new MediaPlayer icon is also shown. I think they will depricate QTKit, and extend CoreVideo to cover all what it did, in a non-carbon maner. It will make it easier for them to port Final Cut to Cocoa as well.
 
Just because we have all in the past been treated to the “new version every four to five years-ish” release cycle from Microsoft, that is not how most software development works.

Actually it is. It's usually a three year cycle though.

Faster increments mean you get feedback quicker and provided you have time to use that feedback to improve in a constructive manor, it will result in faster progress.

Yes, we call the outputs of this 'free service packs', 'patches' and 'free updates'.

As already pointed out, Ubuntu do 6 month release cycles and they have absolutely no commercial gain.

Possibly because it's a non-commercial , developmental platform? I use Ubuntu and like it but I sure as hell wouldn't pay for a new version every six months.

It's not about fleecing gullible customers, it's about doing the right thing in relation to the software life cycle.

Sure. That's why there are such huge differences between the variants of OSX 10 - with the exception of the jump from Tiger to Leopard which did take about three years and put in two major new features - and why they couldn't have been added in Service Packs.

Or not.

Feedback keeps people honest. You can't ship a gargantuan update and have it thoroughly tested and perfect first time.

Which is why MS use Windows Update to freely distribute amendments.

Holding all new features back for three/four/five years waiting for a “major advance” in technology that somehow justifies a new OS release is quite simply a terrible idea that is destined to lead to huge problems that blow anything in your “rusty” Leopard out of the water.

Except, of course, XP was quite capable of dealing with any of the major advances in technology over the last seven years with one paid for release and free support.

Of course as a commercial company Apple will generally charge for major OS updates (of course what they class as major might not be the same as other people's definition of major).

Whilst others don't charge at all.

In the end though customers have the choice — take it or leave it.

Which is where the gullible part comes in.

Most choose to take it, not because they are gullible, but because they recognise the value provided by the new software.

Sure they do. Most take it because it's shiny and new.
 
They've slowed down due to the Intel port and the iPhone. Steve Jobs announced after Leopard that they were going for releases every 12-18 months again.

@ Skeletal daemon, I completely agree with you.

I know he said that, but how much chance do you give a fully working 10.6 release on April 2009 (which is 18 months after Leopard, only 10 months from now)?
I mean the problems encountered with Leopard (don't forget they like to release the Server version simultaneously) blamed on the iPhone development, shows how much time it takes to create a feature rich OS.
The Intel-port is not the case. Steve said Mac OS X has been running a "secret life", i.e. native on Intel since 10.0 (personally I feel you can state Mac OS X's roots are very much x86 anyway with OPENSTEP...). Added the fact that the iPhone 2.0 software is also very much in development ATM, I think it'll be closer to 24 months before 10.6 is released, certainly if Apple wants a single OS strategy.
Maybe this WWDC Steve could mention what they are up to, show us a road map of future Mac OS X releases (like he did back in '98 talking about Mac OS 8.5 8.6, 9 and X).
But, of course... Apple has surprised me many times. :D
 
I'm all for dropping PPC, and I only own PPC machines (currently).

Just because 10.6 won't run on a PPC doesn't make your PPC stop working. It just means eventually you'll have to buy a new machine if you want the latest OS features.

Agree 100%. Both my macs are PPC and I wouldn't have a hissy fit if Apple's next OS didn't work on them. As it stands I'm still running Tiger on my G5 because of Leopard's issues with CS3.
 
No way - leopard has only been out for a little while.

My theory is that Apple will release 10.6 before the official Microsoft shipping date for windows 7. MS will no doubtably have problems and push the date back.

aussie_geek
 
People who are moaning that they are seeding 10.6 too soon are the same people that will be moaning when 10.6 comes out that it's unreliable/rushed/buggy etc.

These same people are saying Apple shouldn't rush things - so why are they complaining that Apple is starting development on the new OS a 10 months/1 year/ even a year and a half before the release - if you ask me, that's not rushing the release, that's using the time they have sensibly - why leave the testing a few months when you can start now and make an even better OS system - rather than start in 5 months time and then have to rush it.
 
No way - leopard has only been out for a little while.

My theory is that Apple will release 10.6 before the official Microsoft shipping date for windows 7. MS will no doubtably have problems and push the date back.

aussie_geek

You do realise that Leopard was late too, right?
 
Well i am quite sure it is true, i just saw a iPhone intro video where they talked about MediaPlayer. There is a Quicktime icon though, but a new MediaPlayer icon is also shown. I think they will depricate QTKit, and extend CoreVideo to cover all what it did, in a non-carbon maner. It will make it easier for them to port Final Cut to Cocoa as well.

Sounds perfectly sensible to me.

I know he said that, but how much chance do you give a fully working 10.6 release on April 2009 (which is 18 months after Leopard, only 10 months from now)?

Very high. By June 2009, practically 100%. Remember that the iPhone is now out so they should be going on with their own team. Its far less efficient to get another team to help significantly for a start.

Yes, we call the outputs of this 'free service packs', 'patches' and 'free updates'.

There is no way you can compare that to a full OS release. Yes they released significant improvements to Windows Media Player, and to a lesser extent Internet Explorer, but Apple releases iTunes/Quicktime and Safari like that too...

Sure. That's why there are such huge differences between the variants of OSX 10 - with the exception of the jump from Tiger to Leopard which did take about three years and put in two major new features - and why they couldn't have been added in Service Packs.

Well yes, the difference between 10.1 and 10.2 and 10.2 and 10.3 seem to have been significant, and the changes between 10.3 and 10.4 were cerrtainly more comparable to the changes between XP and Vista than any Service Pack. (EDIT: For example in 10.4 Spotlight was added, as was Automator and Dashboard (though these are less useful) Improvements were made to Safari and Mail, and from a developer perspective Core Audio, Core Video, Core Image and Core Data were added)

Which is why MS use Windows Update to freely distribute amendments.

So does Apple. The more interesting MS add-ons are only available if you trawl through their website so that they can then sell them in the next OS version.

Except, of course, XP was quite capable of dealing with any of the major advances in technology over the last seven years with one paid for release and free support.

That's because XP was better than Mac OS X 10.0/10.1 (and frankly 10.2), the same doesn't apply now.

Sure they do. Most take it because it's shiny and new.

And Vista is just flying off the shelves onto peoples existing PC's.

You do realise that Leopard was late too, right?

Which was down to the iPhone's initial release and them needing to develop for that.
 
Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

I'm interested to see the new features but I do think it will still be a bit early to seed to developers. It will also be a bit of a bummer if they discontinue PowerPC support but that day had to come sometime.
 
As always, I'm not going to agree.

Actually it is. It's usually a three year cycle though.

Please give me some examples of a major consumer software product on three year release cycles from a company outside Redmond, Washington. When you are trying to establish a product, you increment quickly. I can't think of any application in my applications folder which has not had at least one update within three years. Most have had more. Many have been updated this year.

Yes, we call the outputs of this 'free service packs', 'patches' and 'free updates'.

Who is we?

Also, Apple too releases these patches and updates for free. They also have major releases as well. Patches and point updates do not add features. The major releases do.

Possibly because it's a non-commercial , developmental platform? I use Ubuntu and like it but I sure as hell wouldn't pay for a new version every six months.

You miss the point.

It is precisely because it is non-commercial that it is a good example.

The Ubuntu team are free to do the best thing in relation to the release cycle rather than being motivated by business and commerical constraints.

And guess what? They choose increment quickly. All this does is validate Apple's decision to increment quickly.

Sure. That's why there are such huge differences between the variants of OSX 10 - with the exception of the jump from Tiger to Leopard which did take about three years and put in two major new features - and why they couldn't have been added in Service Packs.

Or not.

Um actually I think you underestimate the differences to be honest. If you gave OS 10.4 to someone running OS 10.2 and ask to compare they would find plenty of improvements. For developers the differences are even more pronounced.10.3 -> 10.4 saw huge changes at the Kernel level. Each version has added new frameworks all the bundled apps received updates and overhauls. We also got new bundled applications with each release as well.

I've used all releases, I notice differences that I feel I am justified in paying for. Many others agree. If you don't then you can choose to skip the updates.

Which is why MS use Windows Update to freely distribute amendments.

So do Apple. They use Apple Software Update to freely distribute amendments. Then when they have a new release, they ship it as a shrink-wrapped product.

Except, of course, XP was quite capable of dealing with any of the major advances in technology over the last seven years with one paid for release and free support.

Your first told me that you only need a new OS for major changes in technology and now you are telling me you don't need a new OS for major changes in technology because Windows XP can handle them all. Doesn't sound right to me.

Whilst others don't charge at all.

Apple also don't sell support contracts and per seat licences. Microsoft do. Both companies make their money in different ways, Apple is consumer focussed, Microsoft is business focussed. This comparison has little merit. Companies who sell Linux server solutions are selling the support contracts and not the software, because the software is free. They are different models.

If Microsoft could get away with charging for service packs then believe me, they would. But they can't justify because service packs don't add significant new features. And even if they did, businesses wouldn't pay for them anyway.

Which is where the gullible part comes in.

No, this is where the “take it or leave it” bit comes in. Plenty of Mac users are still on Tiger. Some have upgraded or brought new machines with Leopard. Some are happy running old machines with Panther or Jaguar.

Sure they do. Most take it because it's shiny and new.

Assuming all Mac users are gullible and have no grasp of technology.

Fact is we need to progress. Businesses don't like change in Software (for very good reasons) and like to stay conservative.

But in the consumer space people are open to good, new, innovative ideas and things that will make their lives easier.

Reading between the lines, all of the above seems like a lot of bluster to conceal two points:
[A] You don't see much value in good software.
You'd rather not pay at all, or at least not very often.
[C] You can't distinguish between the requirements of the consumer space and the business space.

That's all weel and good, that's where most average people stand (most of my friends as well). But you should be upfront about it.
 
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